First win Intercity West Coast franchise

[F Great Eastern]

That would be too cheap.

Bear in mind that the Anytime Single Euston-Manchester is £148 for just 2hours and 7or8minutes of travel.

Doing the sums:
Heathrow Express is £1.20 a minute online or £1.27 if you buy at the station
Euston to Manchester works out about £1.17.

 

[eastdyke]

Doing the sums:
Heathrow Express is £1.20 a minute online or £1.27 if you buy at the station
Euston to Manchester works out about £1.17.

Yeah but I was only quoting Standard Class.
First Class is £211.50 Anytime Single!

 

[tbtc]

Mentioning Heathrow Express... that's the kind of route I could see Branson lending his name to - a "premium" service that doesn't have to deal with complaining commuters.

I'm sure the other airlines at Heathrow wouldn't want Virgin branding on the train service, of course!

 

[eastdyke]

Mentioning Heathrow Express... that's the kind of route I could see Branson lending his name to - a "premium" service that doesn't have to deal with complaining commuters.

I'm sure the other airlines at Heathrow wouldn't want Virgin branding on the train service, of course!

And do you think BAA would want to do that?

Heathrow Express Operating Authority is a wholly owned subsidiary of BAA.

 

[tbtc]

And do you think BAA would want to do that?

Heathrow Express Operating Authority is a wholly owned subsidiary of BAA.

No, I appreciate it's not comparable to TOCs, I was just saying that if the Virgin brand were to carry on on UK trains then this was the kind of service that Branson seems more suited to than having to deal with harassed commuters.

 

[eastdyke]

No, I appreciate it's not comparable to TOCs, I was just saying that if the Virgin brand were to carry on on UK trains then this was the kind of service that Branson seems more suited to than having to deal with harassed commuters.

Yes, I certainly agree with you on that. RB has always thought of Virgin as a premium brand.

Despite what he has said about future Franchises, I suspect HS2 will be of interest.

 

[tbtc]

Yes, I certainly agree with you on that. RB has always thought of Virgin as a premium brand.

Despite what he has said about future Franchises, I suspect HS2 will be of interest.

I was laughing along at the latest Virgin television advert last night (for planes, not trains), wondering whether you could ever see First Group ever do anything so "glamerous"... it's a different world.

HS2? Yeah, that worries me - I could see it being attractive to him, but it risks making the case for/against HS2 dependant on your views of one man. He'd love the publicity though.

 

[Hazlehead]

A glossy brochure and reality often can be two different things. As posted above, breakfast is one thing, a mid-day snack something much less. Must admit I don't think you could ever get the cheapest advance fare on the breakfast train - and for the prices I've seen I'd want a darned sight more than bacon and eggs!

BTW What is the cheapest fare available for the breakfast run? Can you get a £36.50 single if you're quick enough??

No you can't get a 36.50 ticket. On some earlier trains and ones after 8am you can pick up from as little as £61 and get full breakfast. Best days are Thursday Nd Friday as less business travellers.

We have to be realistic like any other business. You're not going to get everything at the lowest price. Hence why light bites exists as most people for majority of day are paying as little as £24 (with railcard) instead of £211. Just like an airline or hotel if you want all the trimmings you have to be prepared to pay for it. Would you book London hotel for £100 a night and expect the Savoy or Ritz?

I think the food on offer can be improved but it all costs money so in the current world we live in its comes down to people paying for improvements.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

No you can't get a 36.50 ticket. On some earlier trains and ones after 8am you can pick up from as little as £61 and get full breakfast. Best days are Thursday Nd Friday as less business travellers.

Unless it's changed from last year you could get First Advance tickets (£23 with railcard) Chester-Glasgow on the 0749 ex Warrington (first 390 of the day from Euston) and get the full breakfast works.
Same on the 1840 return (with drinks).
Can't be bettered. And all that Lakes/Lowland scenery too.
Cheaper than the walk-on Standard SVR.

 

[calc7]

Unless it's changed from last year you could get First Advance tickets (£23 with railcard) Chester-Glasgow on the 0749 ex Warrington (first 390 of the day from Euston) and get the full breakfast works.
Same on the 1840 return (with drinks).
Can't be bettered. And all that Lakes/Lowland scenery too.
Cheaper than the walk-on Standard SVR.

That is still possible now.
The full run to/from London on those services is only £49 without railcard or £32 with - fantastic value!

 

[All Line Rover]

That is still possible now.
The full run to/from London on those services is only £49 without railcard or £32 with - fantastic value!

But there is a reason for that, and it's not because Virgin are being generous. The 05:39 ex. Euston is the ONLY weekday London to Glasgow service that has the cheapest tier of First Class (£49) and Standard Class (£20) fares available. If fares were raised on this service there would be no way to travel from London to Glasgow on a weekday for the lowest advertised fare - something the ASA might like to hear about!

As far as I am aware, the fact you can get breakfast on this service (and an evening meal on the 18:40 ex. Glasgow) for the lowest possible First Class fare is an anomalous that exists only on the London to Glasgow route. Most other routes (Liverpool to London, Manchester to London), dictate a minimum fare of tier 2. It's clear that passengers pay for the breakfast and evening meal despite what Virgin like to claim.

This is different to East Coast where, if you book far enough in advance, are assured to get the cheapest First Class fare on almost any breakfast service from London and evening meal service to London.

 

[calc7]

But there is a reason for that, and it's not because Virgin are being generous. The 05:39 ex. Euston is the ONLY weekday London to Glasgow service that has the cheapest tier of First Class (£49) and Standard Class (£20) fares available. If fares were raised on this service there would be no way to travel from London to Glasgow on a weekday for the lowest advertised fare - something the ASA might like to hear about!

As far as I am aware, the fact you can get breakfast on this service (and an evening meal on the 18:40 ex. Glasgow) for the lowest possible First Class fare is an anomalous that exists only on the London to Glasgow route. Most other routes (Liverpool to London, Manchester to London), dictate a minimum fare of tier 2. It's clear that passengers pay for the breakfast and evening meal despite what Virgin like to claim.

Yes - fair point! And of course the marginal cost of offering a handful of tickets at this headline price is low, anyway.

This is different to East Coast where, if you book far enough in advance, are assured to get the cheapest First Class fare on almost any breakfast service from London and evening meal service to London.

"All day" only And there's nothing to say a £25 cheapo offer won't come along later!

 

[Wolfie]

Err.... ScotRail's current livery features a stylised Saltaire.

EXACTLY....

So for England the Cross of St George NOT the Union flag...

 

[6Gman]

According to Rail Magazine RB told MPs that Virgin would be a Pendolino-only service - implying this would be a "good thing".

So how would they serve Chester/ Holyhead?

 

[ainsworth74]

So how would they serve Chester/ Holyhead?

57s initially and new locomotives eventually I believe was the plan. They were planning on using 390s modified to work with locomotives more effectively I believe.

 

[D365]

I would have bi-moded a few of the 221s exclusively for Chester/Holyhead and replaced the rest with 6 car Baby Pendos, just to confuse trainspotters a little more! Saying that, isn't there the problem that 5 car Voyagers won't take another carriage but 4 car ones will? Or is it something else that I've heard..

 

[6Gman]

57s initially and new locomotives eventually I believe was the plan. They were planning on using 390s modified to work with locomotives more effectively I believe.

Well that would work wonders for reliability

and extend Euston - Chester times.

 

[chuckles1066]

That would be too cheap.

Bear in mind that the Anytime Single Euston-Manchester is £148 for just 2hours and 7or8minutes of travel.

So compare it mile for mile with other forms of transport.

Euston-Manchester Piccadilly by road = 199 miles according to AA Route Planner.

It'll take you (according to them) 3hr 53 mins. In any decent diesel engined car you'll do it in 3hrs and it'll cost you around £27 in fuel. Add another tenner in running costs and you're looking at £40 tops.

So train vs car = car wins by £108.

If the Government really wanted us out of our cars they'd have offered a genuine alternative.

As it is, the rail network is used only by those who don't have a choice.

Exploitation of the masses, if you please.

 

[Class 33]

I've just looked up the Anytime Return for London-Manchester. £296!!!! How can they justify such ridiculously overpriced fares??? And who the hell pays these sort of rip-off prices for such a journey??! They must have money to burn!!

 

[ainsworth74]

Businesses and they can justify them because they also offer much lower advance fares though FWC are saying that they'd lower Anytime fares by 15% so that at least would make a bit of an impact.

 

[Pen Mill]

So compare it mile for mile with other forms of transport.

Euston-Manchester Piccadilly by road = 199 miles according to AA Route Planner.

It'll take you (according to them) 3hr 53 mins. In any decent diesel engined car you'll do it in 3hrs and it'll cost you around £27 in fuel. Add another tenner in running costs and you're looking at £40 tops.

So train vs car = car wins by £108.

If the Government really wanted us out of our cars they'd have offered a genuine alternative.

As it is, the rail network is used only by those who don't have a choice.

Exploitation of the masses, if you please.

Anytime fares as you rightly say are almost non-starters except for emergency requirements.
However compare them with Advance fares.
For next Friday for example ,you can get an advance single EUS-MAN for £32.50 on any of the early trains compared with the £148 walk up.
As I say , Anytimeis not an option except in desparate circumstances.

People doing this journey regularly will be almost certainly buying advance which beat car costs.

A couple of points on the car costs.
It will take 4 hours on most weekdays because of sheer volume of traffic at peak times.
Also you can add at least another Tenner for parking costs.

 

[Donny Dave]

So compare it mile for mile with other forms of transport.

Euston-Manchester Piccadilly by road = 199 miles according to AA Route Planner.

It'll take you (according to them) 3hr 53 mins. In any decent diesel engined car you'll do it in 3hrs and it'll cost you around £27 in fuel. Add another tenner in running costs and you're looking at £40 tops.

Good luck in trying to do Euston - Man Picc in 3 hours by road ....

(PS. You forgot about the cost of using the M6 Toll, which is another £5.50)

A couple of points on the car costs.
It will take 4 hours on most weekdays because of sheer volume of traffic at peak times.
Also you can add at least another Tenner for parking costs.

During the day, your looking at closer to 5 hours in the car, as there is no peak time on the motorways between London and Bedford, going past Northampton, and the M6 can be 1 long mobile car park between Coventry and Crewe.

The A556 between the M6 and M56 is usually slow going as well, then you have to get into the center of Manchester ....

 

[Zoe]

Also unless your journey is starting at Euston (which is just outside the congestion charge zone) and not further into Central London, other costs have to be taken into account. The peak Oyster Zone 1 tube single fare is £2, the congestion charge is £10.

 

[WatcherZero]

Well that would work wonders for reliability

and extend Euston - Chester times.

They were looking at the Eurolight family of 125mph locos, coupling and uncoupling them at Chester, the Pendos used would have been modified to have permanently exposed couplers (rather than the present coupler cover) and a computer upgrade/software written for quick electronic handshake on coupling and also allowing it be driven either from the Loco or the Pendolinos rear cab.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

They were looking at the Eurolight family of 125mph locos, coupling and uncoupling them at Chester, the Pendos used would have been modified to have permanently exposed couplers (rather than the present coupler cover)

Were the existing covers just for aesthetic purposes ?

 

[HSTEd]

What is the mileage to Amersham or similar?

£6 from Amersham into the centre of London using Oyster (that is the single fare though).

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Good luck in trying to do Euston - Man Picc in 3 hours by road ....

(PS. You forgot about the cost of using the M6 Toll, which is another £5.50)



During the day, your looking at closer to 5 hours in the car, as there is no peak time on the motorways between London and Bedford, going past Northampton, and the M6 can be 1 long mobile car park between Coventry and Crewe.

The A556 between the M6 and M56 is usually slow going as well, then you have to get into the center of Manchester ....

Spot on - even on a Saturday - and using the Toll road (£4.80) - it took over 5 hours to do Herts to Fallowfield last Saturday - the word "carpark" is very appropriate indeed. Nightmare trip. (4 hours on return at 2000 - and still a busy road)

 

[Daz28]

It'll take you (according to them) 3hr 53 mins. In any decent diesel engined car you'll do it in 3hrs and it'll cost you around £27 in fuel. Add another tenner in running costs and you're looking at £40 tops.

So train vs car = car wins by £108.

You could hire a car for a day and make that journey with cash to spare.

 

[whhistle]

But also remember that the train takes more than just one person.
All well and good working out that it may cost more using a car, but then divide that value by 200 people (fairly low from Manchester to London I would have thought) and you'll get a more accurate figure.

The only strengths rail has over any other transport these days is city centre - city centre locations and speed. Possibly comfort and ease of use but there is little else.

 

[Mainliner]

People doing this journey regularly will be almost certainly buying advance which beat car costs.

.

Of course.

I travel from the North East to London every week, buying advance, at a fraction of car costs, in far less time, and also being able to work while travelling, which is another cost factor for businesses. If someone with even a modest professional charge out rate of say £150/hour can do a couple of hours' work on a journey, that effectively makes a £300 ticket free, in comparison to car travel, which is simply wasted time.

Incidentally, rail travel beats short domestic air travel on that aspect on most routes, due to the stop/start nature of short air journeys, i.e. getting to and from each airport, getting through each airport, etc - it isn't possible to work for a couple of hours or more without interruptions, as one can do on a train. I tried it for a month as an experiment - never again.