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First win Intercity West Coast franchise

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WelshZ

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Did anyone expect this outcome?

What happens next?

Complete and utter chaos as other operators now have precedent to go if they lose a franchise, just start a petition and throw toys out of the pram:roll:

on the other hand DOR would presumably be a caretaker operator so both the East Coast and West Coast mainlines would be back in public ownership (technically)
 
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WatcherZero

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Yes well done Richard.. He may well have saved the taxpayer millions by pointing out how flawed the franchise system is.. And saved First Group form Bankruptcy.

At least we will not have a repeat of the National Express/GNER fiasco. (hopefully!)

Thats a good point, will Firsts share price tommorow go down or will it go up? :p
 

F Great Eastern

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People keep talking about DOR, but if they hand WCML over to DOR, surely they will have to do the same for other franchises that come up for renewal that are delayed by this process?
 

YorkshireBear

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People keep talking about DOR, but if they hand WCML over to DOR, surely they will have to do the same for other franchises that come up for renewal that are delayed by this process?

Depends if they have already had the max legal extension as virgin have.
 

David10

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What happens next?
In terms of the West Coast services, Directly Operated Railways take over in December. In terms of the franchise the shortlisted bidders will be asked to submit fresh bids after the inquiries, would imagine it would be at least 12 months before the DfT were in a position to award a new franchise.
 

WatcherZero

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RAIL magazine pointed out that this wasnt the first time a franchise award has been challenged before, indeed they say as well as the famous example where First challenged itself not being shortlisted and lost theres been two other challenges over the franchising process, the results before today: 1 win for Dft, 1 draw, 1 loss for the Dft. Todays results takes that to 1 win, 1 draw, 2 losses.

Also yes, Virgin has already had the max legal extensions of the contract, the delays in WCML refranchising and the desire not to have the handover close to the Olympics resulted in them getting an extension, and a big argument over whether they could bring in the 11 car Pendolinos during that extension with the Dft not wanting them too. Eventually Virgin won and the Dft agreed to fund the scheduled introduction of the 11 car pendos.
 

Zoe

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In terms of the franchise the shortlisted bidders will be asked to submit fresh bids after the inquiries, would imagine it would be at least 12 months before the DfT were in a position to award a new franchise.
Has it been confirmed that the "fresh competition" will just be asking the currently shortlisted bidders to resubmit bids and the whole process is not getting declared null and void with a new franchising process starting from the expressions of interest stage?
 

dosxuk

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People keep talking about DOR, but if they hand WCML over to DOR, surely they will have to do the same for other franchises that come up for renewal that are delayed by this process?

In the normal case of the process being delayed, an extension could be arranged with sufficient time to allow it to be processed properly.

Organising such an extension in about 8 weeks, while the handover process has already started, and the entire franchising system is stalled, is just a recipe for chaos.

Virgin have an end-date a matter of days away, this should be stuck to. For the franchises ending in 12 months, as soon as they've worked out what went wrong, they should be sorting out the extensions.
 

F Great Eastern

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RAIL magazine pointed out that this wasnt the first time a franchise award has been challenged before, indeed they say as well as the famous example where First challenged itself not being shortlisted

If you're talking about the Greater Anglia, First actually dropped their action after initially going to court.

They did this because they felt it was in their long term interests. If you look online there is a speech by Bob Russell, MP at the time who says this.

http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200203/cmhansrd/vo030711/debtext/30711-24.htm
 

WatcherZero

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All franchising suspended while an independent inquiry into the Dft's staff's management of the franchising process and an independent inquiry into the Franchising process itself take place, so say 7 months for refranchising process, 4-6 months for a short inquiry, possibly upto 9 months. Yes looks like a year plus delay in franchising.
 

Realfish

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Why would it lead to further legal action? The Virgin contract expires in December, when a contract expires the only way it can be extended is by agreement of both parties.

The DFT could put every franchise back in the hands of DOR if it wants upon contract expiration. Nothing any TOC could do about it.


The DfT can take the route back, but there are precedents where an incumbent has received an extension due to a delay, something which VT might argue should apply this time. They may also try to obtain an opinion that had the process run properly and the bids measured properly they may have won it (something that DfT have conceded), and they have potentially suffered a loss as a consequence. DfT might also want to consider the wider implications - yes those who might favour renationalisation lite, might see an attraction in all of the other franchises taken back at their end point- but really? Would they want to do that?

In the words of the Act, DOR would be appointed as an 'operator of last resort' when actually they're not, there isn't a threat to services, VT are quite capable of carrying on and are willing to do so.

Taken together, DfT would be well advised to ask VT to continue, not least from a common sense perspective.

When in a hole, the Transport Dept should stop digging
 

Zoe

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c2c have already had an extension (original end date 2011). FCC actually had a truncation of two years (original end date 2015), and FGW of course rejected their extension.
It was slightly different with FGW though as years 8 to 10 were agreed at the start of the franchise and it was always known that they were optional rather than the DfT just deciding to offer an extension later and FGW refusing to take it.
 

Metroland

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Do we really want government running railways if this is what they do...

There's more control now than in BR days!

The private companies are of course going to ask if it is worth investing their money if the DFT cannot be trusted, the system itself is stalled, the problem is a large number of contracts are not far from running out.

The issue we have is DOR has very limited capacity to take over, you can't just magic up management expertise out of thin air, especially in something specialised like the railways.

A lot may now depend on the private companies, they are all 'transport companies' and may decent rail is too risky, again upping costs or pulling out all together.

With that in mind it's not impossible the government may decent to renationalise the lot, especially more and more people are running out of patience with the gravy train that is the railway from top to bottom.

In short its a massive development, certainly the biggest crisis since privatisation.
 

Zoe

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Wouldn't it be ironic if there was a re-run and National Express entered the race and won it?
It all depends on exactly how much of the process is declared null and void though. It could be that the DfT will just ask the four shortlisted bidders to resubmit.
 

WatcherZero

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If you're talking about the Greater Anglia, First actually dropped their action after initially going to court.

They did this because they felt it was in their long term interests. If you look online there is a speech by Bob Russell, MP at the time who says this.

http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200203/cmhansrd/vo030711/debtext/30711-24.htm

Indeed thats why RAIL counted it as a win for the Dft, they realised when Dft showed them why they hadnt been shortlisted that their legal case wasnt strong enough to win so dropped it.
 

F Great Eastern

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The DfT can take the route back, but there are precedents where an incumbent has received an extension due to a delay, something which VT might argue should apply this time. They may also try to obtain an opinion that had the process run properly and the bids measured properly they may have won it (something that DfT have conceded), and they have potentially suffered a loss as a consequence.

The process has been axed. So talking about what could have or might have happened is totally misleading. If you declare the process invalid then the whole thing is invalid, not just the bits that suit.

You can't say, yes the process was invalid, but if it was valid and this was changed. It's like with a contract of employment, it's either stuck to or it's broken, you can't pick and choose which bits apply.
 

bengolding

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I briefly worked for the DfT a few years back after finishing the Fast Stream. Some members of the SCS (Senior Civil Service) I met who worked in the rail division had no rail expertise whatsoever so I'm not surprised by yet another farce.

Got to know many VT staff after years of regular commuting and received a few texts in the past hour or so from a couple who aro are delighted that First is off the table (for now) but feel vindicated. Let's hope VT and not DOR continue come 9 Dec.
 

WillPS

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The DfT can take the route back, but there are precedents where an incumbent has received an extension due to a delay, something which VT might argue should apply this time. They may also try to obtain an opinion that had the process run properly and the bids measured properly they may have won it (something that DfT have conceded), and they have potentially suffered a loss as a consequence. DfT might also want to consider the wider implications - yes those who might favour renationalisation lite, might see an attraction in all of the other franchises taken back at their end point- but really? Would they want to do that?

In the words of the Act, DOR would be appointed as an 'operator of last resort' when actually they're not, there isn't a threat to services, VT are quite capable of carrying on and are willing to do so.

Taken together, DfT would be well advised to ask VT to continue, not least from a common sense perspective.

When in a hole, the Transport Dept should stop digging
I dunno what the law says, but no operator should have a right to extend a franchise, potentially endlessly, on their own terms (since they're the only option).

Even at their present "within franchise" levels, Virgin are making a ludicrous profit. That margin sure as hell isn't going to fall in the potential years between now and when the next franchise will be re-awarded.

DOR is the most sensible option. It's no bad thing either; East Coast have a pretty good record all round.
 

F Great Eastern

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They realised when Dft showed them why they hadnt been shortlisted that their legal case wasnt strong enough to win so dropped it.

Again that is your presumption. It is not facts.

The only statement they made said the decision was made in view of long term interests. Now whether or not that was the case neither of us knows. But that is what they said.

In any case I think you'll find that the majority of people looking back on the company who was awarded the franchise (National Express) did little apart from paying high levels of premium with zero investment. So whilst the DFT may think they 'won' the passengers certainly didn't.
 

Eagle

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Will there now be an in depth investigation into what has gone wrong at DfT with the franchise process?

One would hope so, what with five or six franchises all expiring in the next three years. In terms of screwing up smooth transitions then this happening in the first of the glut of refranchisings was bad, but in terms of ensuring that the process is suitable it's for the best that it was the first one this happened in.
 

WatcherZero

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Again that is your presumption. It is not facts.

The only statement they made said the decision was made in view of long term interests. Now whether or not that was the case neither of us knows. But that is what they said.

In any case I think you'll find that the majority of people looking back on the company who was awarded the franchise (National Express) did little apart from paying high levels of premium with zero investment. So whilst the DFT may think they 'won' the passengers certainly didn't.

Thats whats reported by RAILS 'Insider', not my assertion. They did a feature on it a couple of weeks ago.
 
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