First win Intercity West Coast franchise

[Zoe]

No, they've said they were wrong awarding it to *anyone*.

But if they had awarded it to Virgin, the franchise may well have been signed by now unless someone else had taken legal action.

 

[Realfish]

“West Coast passengers can rest assured that while we seek urgently to resolve the future arrangements the trains that run now will continue to run, with the same drivers, the same staff and timetables as planned. The tickets that people have booked will continue to be valid and passengers will be able to make their journeys as planned.”

I am convinced that the right course of action is for Virgin to be offered an extension, this statement though suggests that the SoS is minded to invoke S30 and go for DOR. Conceivably that might lead to further legal action.

I hope that the SoS isn't continuing to place too much faith in his officials - his PS should be considering his position, for a start.

His Rail Minister might also want to reflect on his performance at the HoC debate when he said that despite VT's claim, he saw no reason to cast his eye over things. Complacent or what?

 

[F Great Eastern]

I won't hang my head in shame, how can any of us have forseen that the DFT would muck it up this badly. I didnt think even they were capable of this.
Not only that, my problem was with how public they made it, there will be several posts where i stated it is the fact that they did it publically by trying to shame First and con users into signing petition. They would have got the same result if they had gone about it quietly and requested a juridical review which is what i wish they had done.

Agreed - they spent too much time bashing First which really annoyed me when the DFT are the party who is responsible for the decision.

 

[dosxuk]

But if they had awarded it to Virgin, the franchise may well have been signed by now unless someone else had taken legal action.

And it would have been done under exactly the same flawed process as them awarding it to First, which the DfT now say would have been wrong.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

0055 on a Wednesday morning and 93 people viewing this thread!

Well the Virgin fanboys really are going to be insufferable now aren't they?

Indeed.

Yep +1

Seconded.

They will have to let Virgin keep the west coast mainline after all this.

I'm sorry, that is absolute complete and utter balderdash. They don't 'have' to give it to anyone, indeed if they gave it to Virgin without inviting bids it would be even more 'unfair' than the events that have been unravelling over the past 6-7 weeks.

 

[F Great Eastern]

I am convinced that the right course of action is for Virgin to be offered an extension, this statement though suggests that the SoS is minded to invoke S30 and go for DOR. Conceivably that might lead to further legal action.

Why would it lead to further legal action? The Virgin contract expires in December, when a contract expires the only way it can be extended is by agreement of both parties.

The DFT could put every franchise back in the hands of DOR if it wants upon contract expiration. Nothing any TOC could do about it.

 

[SprinterMan]

The only thing this has achieved is that all the WCML improvements that were going to happen will now be delayed. Well done Richard, you cretin. FG and Virgin's bids weren't that different but now we will get nothing for some years. Oh great...

 

[jon0844]

I am sure there's NO option other than to hand it over to DOR. The wording says it will be the same drivers, trains and staff - which is exactly correct. Otherwise it would say Virgin would carry on running the same service. It doesn't.

The bidding was flawed, so there was no winner. The franchise ends on that date. Therefore Virgin is NOT going to be running the franchise - but neither is First.

So Virgin has 'won' but not quite the victory being spoken of on here. They will need to bid again, and could lose again.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

Just to clear up, does the entire process start again from absolute scratch, or does it go back to the four 'finalists' that First was chosen from? I suspect it's the former, but I might as well ask!

 

[telstarbox]

Network Rail do line improvements, not TOCs.

 

[YorkshireBear]

Wouldn't it be odd it if First won it second time round too.... wpuld we get the same reaction from virgin. OR a sneaky win for SNCF?

 

[Zoe]

And it would have been done under exactly the same flawed process as them awarding it to First, which the DfT now say would have been wrong.

That may well have been the case but it may not have come to light had no-one taken legal action and it's a possibility that Virgin would still be on course for starting the new franchise in December.

 

[IanXC]

The franchise ends on that date. Therefore Virgin is NOT going to be running the franchise - but neither is First.

There is usually provision in franchise agreements for the term to be extended by one 'railway accounting period' isn't there?

 

[Zoe]

Just to clear up, does the entire process start again from absolute scratch, or does it go back to the four 'finalists' that First was chosen from? I suspect it's the former, but I might as well ask!

Also if t does have to go right back to the start, what about the other franchises that are now on hold pending the reviews, could they also end up going right back to the start?

 

[F Great Eastern]

I am sure there's NO option other than to hand it over to DOR. The wording says it will be the same drivers, trains and staff - which is exactly correct. Otherwise it would say Virgin would carry on running the same service. It doesn't.

The bidding was flawed, so there was no winner. The franchise ends on that date. Therefore Virgin is NOT going to be running the franchise - but neither is First.

The problem is that would then set a precedent. If they do that with ICWC they will have to do it with all the other franchises that have their award delayed and process delayed.

Whenever a franchising process has been delayed in the past operators have had their term extended. Now the DFT legally don't have to do anything when the contact expires, it's up to them what they do.

 

[mirodo]

Just to clear up, does the entire process start again from absolute scratch, or does it go back to the four 'finalists' that First was chosen from? I suspect it's the former, but I might as well ask!

The words "a fresh competition" in the DfT statement would suggest the former.

 

[Metroland]

It's more than that though, effectively the whole franchise process is in crisis, some of these private companies may take legal action against the government for past issues, or just walk away, putting investment in jeopardy.

 

[telstarbox]

Let's put in a forum bid then

 

[jon0844]

There is usually provision in franchise agreements for the term to be extended by one 'railway accounting period' isn't there?

Perhaps - but that's not the same as Virgin just being given the franchise for the whole term (which is what some people are going to suggest).

In fact, there will probably be a petition to have Virgin allowed to run the new franchise without any new bidding process. Heck, if SRB goes on all the TV shows to say that's the best (and cheapest) outcome then perhaps the Government WILL cave in and let him run it forever.

 

[TEW]

There is usually provision in franchise agreements for the term to be extended by one 'railway accounting period' isn't there?

But apparently not in the Virgin franchise, which is already an extension from April 2012. A whole new franchise process would likely need an extension for longer than one period though, so Virgin might not even try to negotiate an extension.

 

[F Great Eastern]

For me it has to be fresh, right from the start again. If the process is flawed it means that the bids that took into account the process are also going to need to be changed to take account for the new process.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

In fact, there will probably be a petition to have Virgin allowed to run the new franchise without any new bidding process.

I'd like to see the DFT win that one!

If they go ahead they'll be took to court.
If they don't go ahead the Virgin fanboys will kick up a fuss.

 

[fergusjbend]

A grosser example of urine-boiling ineptitude I have yet to see! Actually I tried to enter another word instead of 'urine', but it was very properly rejected. Still, you know what I mean.

Fergus

 

[dubscottie]

The only thing this has achieved is that all the WCML improvements that were going to happen will now be delayed. Well done Richard, you cretin. FG and Virgin's bids weren't that different but now we will get nothing for some years. Oh great...

Yes well done Richard.. He may well have saved the taxpayer millions by pointing out how flawed the franchise system is.. And saved First Group form Bankruptcy.

At least we will not have a repeat of the National Express/GNER fiasco. (hopefully!)

 

[WillPS]

So - how many previous franchise awards would have collapsed if the incumbent operator or a failed bidder 'did a Virgin'?

 

[Jeni]

And saved First Group form Bankruptcy.

That's not a good thing The sooner they go bankrupt, the better!

 

[YorkshireBear]

So - how many previous franchise awards would have collapsed if the incumbent operator or a failed bidder 'did a Virgin'?

I do seriously worry about the wider effects on the franchise process. Certainly the governments new generation of franchises has gone well and truly breasts up!

 

[F Great Eastern]

That's not a good thing The sooner they go bankrupt, the better!

Yeah, because the last thing this country needs is for one of the strongest transport employers in the country which has expanded abroad to go bust.

That'll be really good for the economy. :roll:

 

[Whistler40145]

Did anyone expect this outcome?

What happens next?

 

[Eagle]

There is usually provision in franchise agreements for the term to be extended by one 'railway accounting period' isn't there?

Ah, but Virgin have already used up their extension on the current contract (the original end date was April 2012, but they got an extension for the rest of the year for reasons mainly of an Olympical nature).

 

[Jeni]

Did anyone expect this outcome?

Richard Branson isn't silly. He wouldn't have started all this off if he didn't strongly feel there was a problem, otherwise he'd be made to look a fool and damage his reputation.

On that basis, there was always a high chance, just didn't expect it this soon!