Formula 1

[Tetchytyke]

Didn’t argue about the decision? Did you miss the bit where he went up to see the stewards of his own accord during the red flag?

He didn't understand and went to clarify it. Entirely reasonable. He didn't stop and start throwing 1st place marker boards around the joint, unlike Seb Vettel.

David Coulthard on C4's commentary didn't initially understand what had happened either.

Heck, even the official F1 Instagram account had to put an enormous circle on a photo to highlight the two light panels which showed the pit lane was shut. They certainly weren't obvious, even from the TV camera it wasn't that easy to see that they weren't just flashing for the safety car. But the team should have known, so it's their error. Hamilton wasn't the only one to do it either.

It was a strange safety car, I suspect it was thrown to liven the race. I couldn't see why Magnussen's car was in a dangerous place, it should have been easy enough to drag it behind the barrier rather than close the pit lane and wheel it away.

 

[nlogax]

Watched that GP yesterday in awe at how well 'part two' worked out as an effective reverse grid mini-race. I'm sure there will be more of that to come to F1 in the near future. My first (and so far only) Monza GP three or four years ago was a fantastic long weekend milling about the track but even sitting amongst the Tifosi it felt like the race itself was a dud. Standard Merc procession and little to write home about. Imagine yesterday's events with a full crowd..what an atmosphere that would have been.

 

[Royston Vasey]

He didn't understand and went to clarify it. Entirely reasonable. He didn't stop and start throwing 1st place marker boards around the joint, unlike Seb Vettel.

David Coulthard on C4's commentary didn't initially understand what had happened either.

Heck, even the official F1 Instagram account had to put an enormous circle on a photo to highlight the two light panels which showed the pit lane was shut. They certainly weren't obvious, even from the TV camera it wasn't that easy to see that they weren't just flashing for the safety car. But the team should have known, so it's their error. Hamilton wasn't the only one to do it either.

It was a strange safety car, I suspect it was thrown to liven the race. I couldn't see why Magnussen's car was in a dangerous place, it should have been easy enough to drag it behind the barrier rather than close the pit lane and wheel it away.

There must have been a good reason not to push it back, either Magnussen left it in first gear (probable) or they're heavily unionised and not allowed to shift their own picnic tables.

Race directors don't throw SCs to liven the race, they're professionals. As soon as Magnussen's car started being pushed forwards by some blokes feet from the track with their back to the action, it had to be called. And it's why the pitlane was closed... Giovinazzi in particular got pretty close to them at 100+ mph.

 

[Howardh]

Watched that GP yesterday in awe at how well 'part two' worked out as an effective reverse grid mini-race. I'm sure there will be more of that to come to F1 in the near future.

Doubt it as what's the point of going hard at it in the first place?

However I reckon there's merit in awarding points for qualifying and then mix the top cars up at random; so the survivors who go into Q3 are playing for points - 5 for first, 4 second etc which are added to their race total; but all Q3 finishers are then put into a random draw to place them on the grid. So there's an incentive to go flat-out in Q3 and more interest on race-day.

 

[GB]

Out of interest, how often has there been a standing start following a red flag?

 

[najaB]

Out of interest, how often has there been a standing start following a red flag?

One commentator said it was the first time - certainly I don't remember seeing it in a long time.

 

[GB]

Thanks, now that you mention it I seem to recall a rule change a few years ago to say it will be standing start following a red flag unless it’s pretty wet. Purely because a restart under a safety car is boring as...

 

[packermac]

One commentator said it was the first time - certainly I don't remember seeing it in a long time.

Way back it was always the way of a restart after a red flag.
In the wreck strewn F3000 race at Brands Hatch where Johnny Herbert had his terrible crash in 1988 from memory there were 3 restarts after red flags, the last with about 7 cars.
Much better entertainment to have a grid restart than a safety car one.

 

[gswindale]

How was the 1994 Japanese Grand Prix restarted?

I seem to recall that was split in two due to the weather and that Damon Hill needed to "win" the second part of the race by a certain number of seconds to to the actual win and take the fight down to the wire in Adelaide.

 

[37424]

The standing restart was good, people keep mentioning the reverse grid idea not a fan of that, I don't really see how that would work, you would have to give points for qualifying otherwise where is the incentive, you would also need to get rid of the tracks that are useless for overtaking eg Monaco, and finding ways to make the cars overtake easier would be even more critical.

What we do need is for the other teams to get their backside in gear and become more competitive and maybe the cost cap will help it will be interesting to see how the top teams adapt to that as it represents the biggest change for them.

I wonder if Red Bull were regretting their decision to push for a party mode ban it didn't seem to do them many favours yesterday

 

[Royston Vasey]

How was the 1994 Japanese Grand Prix restarted?

I seem to recall that was split in two due to the weather and that Damon Hill needed to "win" the second part of the race by a certain number of seconds to to the actual win and take the fight down to the wire in Adelaide.

Rolling start behind the SC due to the extreme wet conditions IIRC

 

[JamesT]

The standing restart was good, people keep mentioning the reverse grid idea not a fan of that, I don't really see how that would work, you would have to give points for qualifying otherwise where is the incentive, you would also need to get rid of the tracks that are useless for overtaking eg Monaco, and finding ways to make the cars overtake easier would be even more critical.

My understanding of the format is that on Saturday you have a short sprint race instead of qualifying. Cars would start that race in reverse championship standing, so if they ran it at the next race it would be George Russell and Romain Grosjean on the front row, Lewis Hamilton and Valtieri Bottas on the rear. The result of the sprint race becomes the grid for the main race on the Sunday. Points are awarded only for the main race.

In theory it gets rid of some of the boring elements of today's racing. You can't just stick it on pole and then milk the advantage of clean air to ride around at the front all race. Cars would have to be optimised to run behind other cars. You should get plenty of overtaking with the faster cars starting at least the sprint race from the back.

 

[LOL The Irony]

Out of interest, how often has there been a standing start following a red flag?

IIRC it was only the 2nd occurrence since the rule was introduced.

 

[Howardh]

My understanding of the format is that on Saturday you have a short sprint race instead of qualifying. Cars would start that race in reverse championship standing, so if they ran it at the next race it would be George Russell and Romain Grosjean on the front row, Lewis Hamilton and Valtieri Bottas on the rear. The result of the sprint race becomes the grid for the main race on the Sunday. Points are awarded only for the main race.

There is some merit in that, although in the sprint there's a good chance of crashes, so would that mean if a driver crashed he's automatically out of the main race - or would he simply start at the end of the grid in a new or repaired car?
Also, of course, Monaco is a problem as the rear cars, although faster, would find it difficult to pass those in front, and you could have Hamilton behind Bottass behind Verstappen, none of whom would want hamilton t pass them at the back. But i suppose as an one-off, monaco could revert to "normal".
It must be noted cars ar 2m wide, which is a lot. Can they not have their width reduced to allow more overtakes? I appreciate the drivers are surrounded by safety stuff, but could the cars not be narrower yet keeping the drivers safe?

 

[GB]

Probably would have been a good idea to use this season (or next) as a test bed for various ideas.

 

[Howardh]

Probably would have been a good idea to use this season (or next) as a test bed for various ideas.

They've held back the main differences due in 2021 to 2022 as I understand?

 

[Tetchytyke]

Race directors don't throw SCs to liven the race, they're professionals.

Hmm. I can think of a few examples in the last few years where a full safety car was thrown when a VSC would have done, including yesterday.

I'm sure there were reasons why not, but certainly under the late Charlie Whiting "the show" was sometimes the reason.

 

[Domh245]

Probably would have been a good idea to use this season (or next) as a test bed for various ideas.

We are seeing that with the 2 day race weekend format at Imola, but that's the only 'trial' that is planned so far. I wouldn't be surprised if more were announced nearer the end of the season however

They've held back the main differences due in 2021 to 2022 as I understand?

In terms of the technical regulations, yes, although many other features (ie cost cap, wind tunnel success penalty system) are being introduced next year

 

[swt_passenger]

There must have been a good reason not to push it back, either Magnussen left it in first gear (probable) or they're heavily unionised and not allowed to shift their own picnic tables.

In one of the BBC reports they said the gap in the barrier wasn't big enough to get the car through. I suppose it’s possible some are only big enough for letting marshals onto the track?

 

[Howardh]

We are seeing that with the 2 day race weekend format at Imola, but that's the only 'trial' that is planned so far. I wouldn't be surprised if more were announced nearer the end of the season however



In terms of the technical regulations, yes, although many other features (ie cost cap, wind tunnel success penalty system) are being introduced next year

Don't think they will make much difference unless Hamilton drives round in an i20 (and he'd probably still be on the podium!). I know it's can't happen, but it would be fascinating if the drivers were given cars at random, then we would know if hamilton's as good in a Torro as he is in a Merc. Chances are he would be - but I'd like to see Max in a Merc.

 

[ilkestonian]

I can't help thinking Hamilton was unfairly treated regarding the penalty.

The closure was made 12 seconds before he entered the pit lane. Hardly time for the teams to register the decision and pass it on to the drivers. I think the two markers, being out of the eyeline of a driver negotiating a high speed right hander and concentrating on adjusting speed and avoiding the sticken car which caused the issue are as good as red herrings.

IMHO the decision should have been to say that the pit lane wil close in, say, thirty seconds, which would still have allowed all the necessary time for the marshalls to push the car forward into the pit area but would have given the teams a chance to pass on the information to their drivers. It took the marshalls far longer than thirty seconds to get it moving so nothing would have been altered by such an instruction.

 

[Howardh]

I can't help thinking Hamilton was unfairly treated regarding the penalty.

The closure was made 12 seconds before he entered the pit lane. Hardly time for the teams to register the decision and pass it on to the drivers. I think the two markers, being out of the eyeline of a driver negotiating a high speed right hander and concentrating on adjusting speed and avoiding the sticken car which caused the issue are as good as red herrings.

IMHO the decision should have been to say that the pit lane wil close in, say, thirty seconds, which would still have allowed all the necessary time for the marshalls to push the car forward into the pit area but would have given the teams a chance to pass on the information to their drivers. It took the marshalls far longer than thirty seconds to get it moving so nothing would have been altered by such an instruction.

"30 seconds" would allow time for some cars to go in getting an unfair advantage over those behind? I do agree, 12 seconds is a little short, however by the time the drivers got to the pits there had been sufficient time to inform the driver and crew to wave them through without stopping. As it was under a yellow flag then they wouldn't have been disadvantaged too much.

 

[najaB]

I do agree, 12 seconds is a little short, however by the time the drivers got to the pits there had been sufficient time to inform the driver and crew to wave them through without stopping.

Indeed. That, plus having to make another pit stop later anyway would act as its own punishment for the infraction. I suppose they could've given him a drive-through instead of the ten-second stop/go.

 

[GB]

I can't help thinking Hamilton was unfairly treated regarding the penalty.

The closure was made 12 seconds before he entered the pit lane. Hardly time for the teams to register the decision and pass it on to the drivers. I think the two markers, being out of the eyeline of a driver negotiating a high speed right hander and concentrating on adjusting speed and avoiding the sticken car which caused the issue are as good as red herrings.

He wasn't going at racing speed round the parabolica, he was on a much tighter line and going much more slower than usual round the curve. He wasn't concentrating on avoiding the stricken car when he passed the light boards as the car was not in his viewpoint untill he had passed both boards and got to the pit entry. The team also failed to realise the pits were closed so it was as much a penalty for them as for the driver. Penalty fully justified imo.

 

[nlogax]

"30 seconds" would allow time for some cars to go in getting an unfair advantage over those behind? I do agree, 12 seconds is a little short, however by the time the drivers got to the pits there had been sufficient time to inform the driver and crew to wave them through without stopping. As it was under a yellow flag then they wouldn't have been disadvantaged too much.

Surely all drivers that qualify and race on the track should be familiar with where things such as pit lane status markers are. Or am I being hopelessly naive?

 

[ilkestonian]

"30 seconds" would allow time for some cars to go in getting an unfair advantage over those behind? I do agree, 12 seconds is a little short, however by the time the drivers got to the pits there had been sufficient time to inform the driver and crew to wave them through without stopping. As it was under a yellow flag then they wouldn't have been disadvantaged too much.

Good point about the team waving the driver through, but, would that have been a double whammy?

Still incurring a penalty for entering a closed pit lane but not getting the advantage which pitting would give them?

Academic as we shall never know how the stewards would have reacted to such an action, though one might hope they would have been a touch more lenient.

Another point. Why was Giovinazzi's penalty the same? He came in far later, with no excuse of the team not knowing or having time to pass on the information.

But notwithstanding, it certainly led to an interesting second half of the race!

He wasn't going at racing speed round the parabolica, he was on a much tighter line and going much more slower than usual round the curve. He wasn't concentrating on avoiding the stricken car when he passed the light boards as the car was not in his viewpoint untill he had passed both boards and got to the pit entry. The team also failed to realise the pits were closed so it was as much a penalty for them as for the driver. Penalty fully justified imo.

Agreed he was on a tighter line, hence more concentration on the right rather than the left of the track.

I know hindsight is wonderful, but the drivers should have objected before the race as the warning signs are so badly placed as to be at least a distraction to safe driving, if not dangerous.

The circumstances were certainly unusual, such that I, and possibly the drivers, in their peripheral vision, might have assumed the signs displayed "SC" for safety car.

Surely all drivers that qualify and race on the track should be familiar with where things such as pit lane status markers are. Or am I being hopelessly naive?

It's not a case of being aware, its a case of being able to safely see them

 

[JamesT]

Surely all drivers that qualify and race on the track should be familiar with where things such as pit lane status markers are. Or am I being hopelessly naive?

They will be briefed on all these things before each race. But closing the pit lane at the same time as the safety car is extremely rare, if it’s not something you’re expecting to happen you won’t be looking out for it.

The markers at Monza are also pretty terribly laid out. They’re on the outside of a high speed corner where you’d naturally be looking at the inside. The pit lane entry is also very short so you’re committed very early. Other tracks have an explicit traffic light at the start of the pit lane to show whether it’s open or not but there’s nowhere at Monza to put one where you could change your mind on seeing it.

 

[najaB]

The markers at Monza are also pretty terribly laid out. They’re on the outside of a high speed corner where you’d naturally be looking at the inside. The pit lane entry is also very short so you’re committed very early. Other tracks have an explicit traffic light at the start of the pit lane to show whether it’s open or not but there’s nowhere at Monza to put one where you could change your mind on seeing it.

All of this is true, but I'm 99.8% sure that Hamilton didn't make the decision to pit all by himself.

 

[GB]

They will be briefed on all these things before each race. But closing the pit lane at the same time as the safety car is extremely rare, if it’s not something you’re expecting to happen you won’t be looking out for it.

The markers at Monza are also pretty terribly laid out. They’re on the outside of a high speed corner where you’d naturally be looking at the inside. The pit lane entry is also very short so you’re committed very early. Other tracks have an explicit traffic light at the start of the pit lane to show whether it’s open or not but there’s nowhere at Monza to put one where you could change your mind on seeing it.

Surely as Monza is not the norm regarding pit lane and indications etc that should be more of a highlight to the teams and drivers.

 

[ilkestonian]

All of this is true, but I'm 99.8% sure that Hamilton didn't make the decision to pit all by himself.

Clearly true, but having made the call, a mere twelve seconds for the team to note the closure, pass it to the relevent decision maker and relay it to the driver in time for him to change course and not enter the pit lane seems to me to be a very tall order.