Future of Class 315

[jon0844]

Hey hey! If people are going to talk amongst themselves about a new livery, I think it's only fair that you spread the love and share us in with the details and/or photos!!! (talking about the 365s here)

 

[Manchester77]

I can't say more but it was a surprise.

If you can't say exactly could you at least say whether or not its a first group style livery?

EDIT: Just imagined a 365 in the new first bus city livery, hm

 

[jon0844]

Maybe it's Virgin Trains livery, as the DfT is preparing to let them take over the whole of the UK railway network?

I am wondering not just because it's going on a train I use regularly, but because it makes me wonder if First is rebranding - and that is something I've wondered for some time whether the company needs to do, putting more focus on PR to play the same game as Virgin.

Their reputation isn't exactly great, deserved or not (in most cases not IMHO) but chances are that FCC will find that when it launches a newly updated train with a new livery, those moaners will be the first to say 'Why are they wasting money on this when they should be making my train run on time!'.

 

[A0]

EMUs tend to have a lot fewer parts to go wrong, and should last at least a decade longer than a comparable DMU.

True - but the problem for the PEP EMUs will be if there's corrosion on the bodies - that could make them expensive to overhaul and the 508s which have been scrapped down at Eastleigh looked pretty rough on that front.

I was wondering whether 323s could be heading to Wales?

LM would probably happily lose their 323s currently in the West-Mids for Desiros of some description - more 350/2s? That would make them easier to roster with other services around the West Mids.

That would free up 26 units.

Then there's Northern Rail's ones as well - given Northern will be having more of it's routes electrified in the Manchester area, would there be some sense in trying to standardise them on a single unit - losing their 323s in favour of something else would free up a further 17.

Would 43 units be enough for the Welsh Valleys services?

 

[WatcherZero]

Was it SWT or SE who in the last couple of weeks said they were looking to order around another 40 carriages new build or refurb but that they had reservations about refurbished units?

Not surprising with the nightmarish 458/460 rebuild which was months behind schedule only weeks into the work and they keep finding more and more severe rust problems.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Would 43 units be enough for the Welsh Valleys services?

The WG document linked above mentions 45 units for the Valleys.
Not a bad fit, though they wouldn't reach 100mph very often.
Some more units would probably be needed for Bristol-Cardiff-Swansea regionals which aren't covered in the Valleys scheme.

 

[anthony263]

The WG document linked above mentions 45 units for the Valleys.
Not a bad fit, though they wouldn't reach 100mph very often.
Some more units would probably be needed for Bristol-Cardiff-Swansea regionals which aren't covered in the Valleys scheme.

class 377's or upgraded/refurbished class 317/319's would be great for the Swansea - Cardiff - Bristol services.

I wish we had the class 377/3's from Southern as they would be perfect seing as they can run as 6 carriage trains during the peaks. Southern could order some more 5 carriage units for the metro services around London.

If brand new emu's are ordered for the GW local services around Reading perhaps some extra units could be ordered for the electric services around Bristol.

 

[A0]

The WG document linked above mentions 45 units for the Valleys.
Not a bad fit, though they wouldn't reach 100mph very often.
Some more units would probably be needed for Bristol-Cardiff-Swansea regionals which aren't covered in the Valleys scheme.

323s are 90mph units, but I doubt they get up to that on the WM routes. They might on the Crewe / Stoke - Manchesters.

 

[anthony263]

323s are 90mph units, but I doubt they get up to that on the WM routes. They might on the Crewe / Stoke - Manchesters.

The class 323's would be great for the Maesteg - Cardiff - Ebbw Vale/Newport services as well as other local services around south wales which use the SWML where linespeed can be over 75mph.

Doesnt hurt that they acellerate like rockets. In fact they are to me the fastest accelerating emu's I have ever been on.

Of course at least 1 member on this forum may have different opinions on the class 323's

 

[Class172]

Of course at least 1 member on this forum may have different opinions on the class 323's

*cough* Ivo *cough* [no names mentioned]

 

[RobShipway]

Would it not be better to have 321/322's if they get cascaded in the Valleys?

 

[455driver]

Personally I'd just scrap the 315s now; old stock that really doesn't create a great image for british railways. Realistically and unfortunately they'll be done up and still be used, but I'm a little fed up of all this old stock that is transferring around our rails.

I take it you use this analogy in your life as well, anything which is a "bit old" is scrapped and you go out and buy the latest version to replace it?
Or do you take a more pragmatic approach and use things until they are expired?

I do the latter and have got a fair bit of money in the bank, some of the people I work with (who are on the same money as me) have a new car every couple of years, the latest phone, laptop etc and dont have any savings.

it is all about the costs V the benefits.

Surely a well refurbished second hand train can be just as good as a new train (plus the second hand one will probably be cheaper to run as well.

 

[edwin_m]

319s, 321s etc only have one coach motored out of four, 323s are two out of three and I think 315s are in between at two out of four. More axles motored means better acceleration and better adhesion especially on gradients, which could be important for the Valley lines.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Surely a well refurbished second hand train can be just as good as a new train (plus the second hand one will probably be cheaper to run as well.

Personally I think that with a thorough refurbishment as the Merseyrail units have had, the 315 and similar units look more modern than any of the 317-322 series (I won't comment on the 455!). They actually look like the result of some industrial design rather than being purely utilitarian.

As to lifetime of EMUs vs DMUs, you only have to look at the A stock which continued as a large fleet on its original route until withdrawn at around the 50 year mark. DMUs of similar vintage were mostly withdrawn at between 35 and 40 years old.

 

[tbtc]

True - but the problem for the PEP EMUs will be if there's corrosion on the bodies - that could make them expensive to overhaul and the 508s which have been scrapped down at Eastleigh looked pretty rough on that front.

I was wondering whether 323s could be heading to Wales?

LM would probably happily lose their 323s currently in the West-Mids for Desiros of some description - more 350/2s? That would make them easier to roster with other services around the West Mids.

That would free up 26 units.

Then there's Northern Rail's ones as well - given Northern will be having more of it's routes electrified in the Manchester area, would there be some sense in trying to standardise them on a single unit - losing their 323s in favour of something else would free up a further 17.

Would 43 units be enough for the Welsh Valleys services?

That's the kind of thinking that I'm interested in - 323s would be great for capacity on the Valley Lines.

That way Northern could get more 321s (from GN/LM) - especially as the electrification of the Huddersfield line will mean EMUs working between Leeds and Manchester, rather than the two separate EMU areas that Northern currently have.

 

[Class377/5]

I've also heard of this new paint job too IIRC from my source who's usually on the ball when the 365s go in for the full works, they will lose the existing FCC livery and have this new livery instead.

I've not seen any pics of what it looks like but I've had it described to me.

If you staff its on the internal website. If not, you'll have to wait.

But yes your source is correct.

If you can't say exactly could you at least say whether or not its a first group style livery?

EDIT: Just imagined a 365 in the new first bus city livery, hm

Its not.

Maybe it's Virgin Trains livery, as the DfT is preparing to let them take over the whole of the UK railway network?

I am wondering not just because it's going on a train I use regularly, but because it makes me wonder if First is rebranding - and that is something I've wondered for some time whether the company needs to do, putting more focus on PR to play the same game as Virgin.

Their reputation isn't exactly great, deserved or not (in most cases not IMHO) but chances are that FCC will find that when it launches a newly updated train with a new livery, those moaners will be the first to say 'Why are they wasting money on this when they should be making my train run on time!'.

I can safely say its not Virgin's.

And I don't think its First choice either. Remember FCC franchise will officially be TSGN in 14 months. The Capital Connect brand will only survive however if First win the management contract.

Hmmm, as long as it's not the same one from the Siemens Press releases on the new Class 700s!

You mean the NX v2 livery? Its kinda growing on me.

 

[Rhydgaled]

Up to 30 class 315's are likely to be overhualed/refurbished for use on the Cardiff Valley lines network from 2018 although I dont think they will be around for too long before being replaced by other cascaded emu's.

Only 30? Doesn't ATW have 30 Pacers, exclusively (bar two) used on routes that are to be electrified, plus 36 class 150s which are mostly used in said area too?

If that is true then something will have to replace the 315's on the Cardiff Valleys.

Either brand new stock perhaps as an add on to a merseyrail order if Bombardier or Hitachi are wanting work for their factories I am sure perhaps they might be willing to do a deal with the welsh government.

Don't NSE-area TOCs generally make a stronger case for investment in new rolling stock? If so, get Southern some new trains and, if possible, shuffle coaches between units to cascade 3-car 377s to Wales.

Regarding older cascades, where are the pantographs/motors on the 31x series units? Could you shuffle things around to make a fleet of 3-car units with corridor-connected ends?

I seem to remember reading a document/press release talking about the business case for the electrification of the Cardiff Valley lines which mentioned using the class 315's casaded from London/east anglia as it offeres the best business case compared to ordering brand new emu's right from the go or not electrifying and ordering new dmu's i.e. class 172's.

Is/when GOBLIN going to be electrified?

Yet there seems to be a general acceptance/ assumption that it'll be 315s to South Wales and 365s to Transpennine. I couldn't think that I'd seen anything official about either of them (notwithstanding the general principle of cascading EMUs to improve the business case for newly electrified lines)

365s to Transpennie? I thought that electrification would be the one that gets new stock. As I've said before, I'd hope for something like a OHLE-powered version of a 444 or 5-WES on TPE, rather than continuation of suburban units. Surely longer trains, and perhaps EMU acceleration (how does an EMU compare to a 185?), would offset increased dwell times.

A fleet size of 45 units is mentioned, operated as 3/6-car sets.

45 units sounds closer to the mark than Anthony's statement of 30, but would they be able to double many up with 45 units?

I was wondering whether 323s could be heading to Wales?

LM would probably happily lose their 323s currently in the West-Mids for Desiros of some description - more 350/2s? That would make them easier to roster with other services around the West Mids.

Don't LM have some routes, like Birmingham to Liverpool perhaps, which are limited stop fast services? If so, perhaps they could use a new OHLE-powered version of the 444 along with TPE, who could also pass their 350s to LM.

Surely a well refurbished second hand train can be just as good as a new train (plus the second hand one will probably be cheaper to run as well.

Personally, I think ATW 158s are better than the 175s in most respects (the 175s win on legroom, that's about it), although I don't like Arriva's colour scheme as much as the blue wall-carpet and stripes on the luggage racks they had before.

 

[Eagle]

Only 30? Doesn't ATW have 30 Pacers, exclusively (bar two) used on routes that are to be electrified, plus 36 class 150s which are mostly used in said area too?

I think it might work out different if you consider it in terms of vehicles instead of units. 315s are all 4-car, replacing 2- and 3-car units currently in the Valleys. Also Pacers' cars are a lot smaller than those of other units, so there's that to consider.

Not sure how many Valleys services are currently doubled up, but a single 315 holds a lot more passengers than 2x142. Also you might be able to get away with replacing (say) a half-hourly 142 with an hourly 315 by calling it a capacity increase (which it is).

Is/when GOBLIN going to be electrified?

Yes, confirmed last month, no timescale though.

 

[Rhydgaled]

Yes, confirmed last month, no timescale though.

Well, if it's done around 2017/18, how about those 172s for the Cardiff - Cheltenham service? Shame that route has rather carelessly been left out of the electrification plans, I think the linespeed is above 75 but this is the stopping service (if the line has 158s, they should be on the fast (Nottingham) services in my opinion). If not 172s, then how about 166s/165s (can they fit, I can't remember)?

 

[jon0844]

So are the 365s going to be painted in a mix of Southern, First Capital Connect and (part) SouthEastern colours then? Once you merge those, you could call it all 'one railway'...

 

[David Goddard]

Would LOVE the 365s on the GW Outer Suburbans once the wires are up.

 

[150001]

I take it you use this analogy in your life as well, anything which is a "bit old" is scrapped and you go out and buy the latest version to replace it?
Or do you take a more pragmatic approach and use things until they are expired?

I see your point and actually I do do the latter. Our car we have had since 2003 and it's still going strong and being very reliable; so I see your point about keeping things still they're expired.

 

[sprinterguy]

I think it might work out different if you consider it in terms of vehicles instead of units. 315s are all 4-car, replacing 2- and 3-car units currently in the Valleys. Also Pacers' cars are a lot smaller than those of other units, so there's that to consider.

Not sure how many Valleys services are currently doubled up, but a single 315 holds a lot more passengers than 2x142. Also you might be able to get away with replacing (say) a half-hourly 142 with an hourly 315 by calling it a capacity increase (which it is).

The majority of Pacer workings are doubled up on the Cardiff Valleys, as far as I've seen. The 150s tend to work singly, though the maximum length of train seen on the Cardiff Valleys at the moment is a pair of 150s, which is the same length as a 4-car class 315.

 

[tbtc]

Based on current timetables, you'd need thirty three units to cover the services through Cardiff Queen Street (i.e. not counting Ebbw Vale/ Maesteg/ Swanline/ Bristol electrification):

Penarth 9
Radyr 3
Treherbert 5
Merthyr 15
Bay 1

Total 33

(happy to be corrected, of course)

So an EMU fleet of 43 (i.e. the 323 fleet) might be perfect for the total number of local services around Cardiff (with a handful of units spare for maintenance etc)

Well, if it's done around 2017/18, how about those 172s for the Cardiff - Cheltenham service? Shame that route has rather carelessly been left out of the electrification plans

Carelessly? Seriously?

There's almost a thousand miles of electrification being done over the rest of the decade, and you're complaining about them not finding time to wire up a ~fifty mile stretch from Newport to Cheltenham that would only free up one train an hour?

Newport to Cheltenham will only be looked at when the Barnt Green/Bromsgrove - Cheltenham - Bristol Parkway line gets done. Maybe CP6, but its really not a priority at the moment.

 

[anthony263]

The class 323's would be able to work as single units on a lot of off peak Valley lines services for a while until patronage rapidly increases as a result of the sparks effects and the reduction in journey times.

The suggestion of sending the Merthyr Tydfil - Cardiff services via the city line will reduce the journey times on that service to just 47 minutes compared to 60-63 minutes currently which there is little doubt will get commuters using the trains.

Of course if it is decided to send the class 323's to south wales then Northern and London Midland will require new emu's to replace them.

 

[Eagle]

The suggestion of sending the Merthyr Tydfil - Cardiff services via the city line will reduce the journey times on that service to just 47 minutes compared to 60-63 minutes currently which there is little doubt will get commuters using the trains.

I think this is one of the main reasons that the Welsh Government were so adamant they wanted the valleys wired. In particular the heads of the valleys have been in dire need of economic regeneration in the last 20 years or so, and getting a Cardiff commuter base building up there will certainly help.

 

[455driver]

I see your point and actually I do do the latter. Our car we have had since 2003 and it's still going strong and being very reliable; so I see your point about keeping things still they're expired.

2003 is still "new" to me , my commuter car is 20 years old and as long as it stays reliable and cheap enough at the MOT I will keep driving it, although it is starting to show its age now plus it is going to have to start going up a few big hills soon and I think that will finally kill it.:cry:

 

[306024]

Personally I'd just scrap the 315s now; old stock that really doesn't create a great image for british railways. Realistically and unfortunately they'll be done up and still be used, but I'm a little fed up of all this old stock that is transferring around our rails.

Well I'm gonna stand up for the 315s, even if they did replace the best commuter train ever designed

Yes they may be basic but flogging up and down on all stations work really tests all the equipment, especially the doors which get a fair bit of use and abuse.

There are a number of class 317 diagrams on WA inners that would be 315s if there were more of them. Will be interesting to see the cunning plan when TfL take over the Chingford, Enfield and Cheshunt services.

 

[RobShipway]

Well I'm gonna stand up for the 315s, even if they did replace the best commuter train ever designed

Yes they may be basic but flogging up and down on all stations work really tests all the equipment, especially the doors which get a fair bit of use and abuse.

There are a number of class 317 diagrams on WA inners that would be 315s if there were more of them. Will be interesting to see the cunning plan when TfL take over the Chingford, Enfield and Cheshunt services.

You will probably find that Tfl will order more Class 378's, however I am not so sure that the longitude seating would go down well with passengers on these routes?

 

[ainsworth74]

You will probably find that Tfl will order more Class 378's, however I am not so sure that the longitude seating would go down well with passengers on these routes?

No reason they have to buy 378s with longitudinal seating.

 

[Eagle]

No reason they have to buy 378s with longitudinal seating.

Technically there's no reason they have to order any rolling stock at all. I mean given precedent (and the need for EMUs elsewhere in the country) it's likely they might, but there's no obligation to replace the current stock.