Future of Newhaven Marine and Harbour Stations?

[142092]

I thought it was used by a steam train to take on water during the Seaford 150 years celebration.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I suppose you could argue that if terrorists caused serious damage to the Channel Tunnel there would be an immediate need for a hugely enhanced ferry service which could potentially involve Newhaven, but it's a bit far fetched.

It's very far fetched (even a very serious fire didn't close it). And such a ferry service, even if it were needed, would operate from the rather underused facilities (these days) at Dover.

 

[edwin_m]

Harbour should face the axe... maybe they can do it SAS style, like at Marine lol.

Wouldn't it be better to ask ... the Marines?

 

[DT611]

This thread surprises me. If you can’t accept that some stations are hopeless, beyond redemption, a waste of effort then how can you have a reasonable debate about resources?

This is a station to serve ferries that moved away, it’s a Dead Parrot.

You can argue that some badly used stations will come good in the future (Ravensthorpe has been mentioned – maybe Tees Valley Airport will see a renaissance as a stop on HS2 in between Darlington and Middlesbrough – maybe Springfield will see thousands of nearby houses as the Edinburgh property bubble forces people further afield...). You can argue that some lightly used stations provide a social lifeline or are valuable to tourism for the hundred people who use them in a typical year. You can make a case for lightly used stations on the Heart Of Wales being the only public transport in some of the remote villages that the line passes through...

...but if you can’t accept that Newhaven Marine should close (because you are paranoid that closing one single station will lead to a domino effect where we’ll end up with a 21st century Serpell) then I don’t think that there’s any way of having a rational discussion.

Some stations have lost their raison d’être. Some stations should never have been built in the first place. Move on. It’s a railway, not a museum. Demand changes, ferry terminals move. If people aren’t using it then what’s the point?

If you’re going to get precious about saving every basket case station like Newhaven Marine then there seems no point trying to debate though.

(what next – “we can’t scrap Pacers because that might be the thin end of the wedge and before you know it The Establishment will be scrapping most trains”? )

Come off it. Its a basic platform with some track that comes in handy. Chances are that trackwork will remain as a siding anyway whether the station does close or not. i'd suggest in its current state it costs buttons effectively. Much easier and cheeper to leave it as it is and don't maintain the platform

 

[Radedamer]

Close Town and Harbour, and reinstate Marine as a terminal station once again - jobs a good one... Heck, I'll do the blooming painting myself

Hmmm. But what's the function of the station(s) at Newhaven? Surely to a) take passengers to/from the town of Newhaven, b) take passengers to/from any ferry services at Newhaven. Marine station is out on a limb, far from the town centre. It's been stated earlier that Town station is actually closest to the current ferry service, though that might not always be the case. And Marine would mean reversing out and reversing twice to go east or get in from the east! So surely most useful of the three is Town.

 

[berneyarms]

Hmmm. But what's the function of the station(s) at Newhaven? Surely to a) take passengers to/from the town of Newhaven, b) take passengers to/from any ferry services at Newhaven. Marine station is out on a limb, far from the town centre. It's been stated earlier that Town station is actually closest to the current ferry service, though that might not always be the case. And Marine would mean reversing out and reversing twice to go east or get in from the east! So surely most useful of the three is Town.

Exactly.

Newhaven Marine serves no useful purpose whatsoever other than to offer a turnback siding.

 

[NSEFAN]

By the sound of things, the current status quo is probably the cheapest option. The station is unadvertised to the public, there are no trains booked to call there but the physical line itself is kind of useful as a turnback siding. The platform can be left as is since it is not needed and currently not a risk to trains. If it does become a problem then the offending structures can be removed, as the roof was recently.

If any station should close to save money it is more likely to be Newhaven Harbour, although again this station requires also very little maintenance and so would the saving even be worth the effort?

 

[swt_passenger]

I tweeted Southern about NVM and their twitter team, at least, seemed puzzled that they still ran trains there! I asked them about restoring services seeing as how the station was closed so long as it took to remove the danger ie: the canopy, and they replied that there are no plans to resume services at this time, but that they may look into it at a future date

Exactly the sort of noncommittal reply you'd expect, that really indicates absolutely nothing.

It's more PC than saying "We won't ever operate there again unless forced to by DfT".

 

[JHurcum]

Well I think we are all in agreement that Marine is interesting but pointless, and that Town is far more useful as an interchange with the ferries.
So on that logic, Harbour serves no purpose and thus can be closed, and all Newhaven passengers just use the Town stop. Harbour should get pulled down and Marine used as a reversing siding.

Does this pretty much sum it up or do people have other ideas?

 

[bramling]

Exactly the sort of noncommittal reply you'd expect, that really indicates absolutely nothing.

It's more PC than saying "We won't ever operate there again unless forced to by DfT".

The situation is strange as although the parliamentary service is completely pointness, so are other ones which still run (eg Stockport to Stalybridge). So if the danger has been removed, should not the parliamentary service now be available to passengers again?

 

[Bishopstone]

There is development proposed which should increase usage of Harbour, eventually. Unfortunately the anchor tenant (if you'll pardon the pun) was ASDA, who pulled-out, and in the current climate none of the other supermarket multiples will be taking space. So we may be talking a decade hence before anything gets built.

That aside, I'm sure most people in Newhaven would trade-off closure of Marine and Harbour for some investment in Town station, which is fairly grim. Whilst the lesser-used of the pair, the extent of the facilities on the Down platform is a windowless bus shelter, evidently used as a toilet quite regularly.

Newhaven is a fairly unusual town, for the south-east. If you knocked down all the void industrial and retail premises, and built houses and flats in lieu, I suspect you would get to 1000 residential units quite easily: all commutable to Brighton, Gatwick and (arguably) London. But nobody has got to grips with fragmented land ownership, or presented a grand vision. It is a town in need of a Docklands Development Corporation type vehicle to force change through.

 

[Crossover]

Looking on Earth, would I be right in thinking the reversing loop cant really be used anymore (it looks like the lines that cross the car park have been severed)?

 

[yorksrob]

Well I think we are all in agreement that Marine is interesting but pointless, and that Town is far more useful as an interchange with the ferries.
So on that logic, Harbour serves no purpose and thus can be closed, and all Newhaven passengers just use the Town stop. Harbour should get pulled down and Marine used as a reversing siding.

Does this pretty much sum it up or do people have other ideas?

When I visited, there were some properties in close proximity to harbour station. Why would you close that station, which is a potential entrance point to residents in that locality, for practically no gain in terms of speed?

 

[MarkyT]

Looking on Earth, would I be right in thinking the reversing loop cant really be used anymore (it looks like the lines that cross the car park have been severed)?

The platform line and two sidings are cut short at a fence near the south end platform ramp where the wharfside road access crosses the tracks. There were always stop markers there, but makeshift bufferstops consisting of sleepers were added at some time. Tracks used to continue across the road and converge on pointwork at the far end of the yard which would allow locomotive run-round of a passenger train in the platform or a freight in one of the sidings. The rails still exist in the road surface the other side of the fence and one set of points and a ground frame known as 'Wharf Road' are still out there somewhere in the undergrowth beyond, allegedly, but 'out of use' according to the sectional appendix:
http://www.networkrail.co.uk/browse...dix/kent sussex wessex sectional appendix.pdf
(Table A LOR SO620 seq 006, pdf page 478).

The attached pictures were taken in 2004 on one of the Sussex Slammer rail tours. As far as I know, nothing has changed much since then.

 

[berneyarms]

Well I think we are all in agreement that Marine is interesting but pointless, and that Town is far more useful as an interchange with the ferries.
So on that logic, Harbour serves no purpose and thus can be closed, and all Newhaven passengers just use the Town stop. Harbour should get pulled down and Marine used as a reversing siding.

Does this pretty much sum it up or do people have other ideas?

You seem to be obsessed with closing stations.

While closing Newhaven Marine altogether makes sense, I'm not sure what purpose closing Newhaven Harbour would serve? It's going to make damn all difference to running times on the Lewes branch and is still used by some passengers.

Why go to the extent of closing it?

 

[HMS Ark Royal]

You seem to be obsessed with closing stations.

While closing Newhaven Marine altogether makes sense, I'm not sure what purpose closing Newhaven Harbour would serve? It's going to make damn all difference to running times on the Lewes branch and is still used by some passengers.

Why go to the extent of closing it?

Because we could...?

Seriously, though, I'd close whichever of the two stations was losing the most money

 

[najaB]

Seriously, though, I'd close whichever of the two stations was losing the most money

I wouldn't think that either of them is losing money as the facilities are minimal. It probably only takes a handful of tickets to pay the cost of the occasional lick of paint.

 

[Crossover]

The platform line and two sidings are cut short at a fence near the south end platform ramp where the wharfside road access crosses the tracks. There were always stop markers there, but makeshift bufferstops consisting of sleepers were added at some time. Tracks used to continue across the road and converge on pointwork at the far end of the yard which would allow locomotive run-round of a passenger train in the platform or a freight in one of the sidings. The rails still exist in the road surface the other side of the fence and one set of points and a ground frame known as 'Wharf Road' are still out there somewhere in the undergrowth beyond, allegedly, but 'out of use' according to the sectional appendix:
http://www.networkrail.co.uk/browse...dix/kent sussex wessex sectional appendix.pdf
(Table A LOR SO620 seq 006, pdf page 478).

The attached pictures were taken in 2004 on one of the Sussex Slammer rail tours. As far as I know, nothing has changed much since then.

Thanks for that - I guess they wouldn't show in satellite if they're that overgrown!

 

[MarkyT]

Thanks for that - I guess they wouldn't show in satellite if they're that overgrown!

I could just make out some rails and sleepers in the bushes on Google Earth although I couldn't definitely identify a set of points. I think the ground frame may have to be maintained as its levers and point detection are proved normal and locked in order to signal a train into the platform.

 

[kensal rise]

in 2013 this station was reported to TSGN bidders to be under control of the UK Border Agency - an unusual arrangement which may explain the lack of any appetite for change

 

[Crossover]

I could just make out some rails and sleepers in the bushes on Google Earth although I couldn't definitely identify a set of points. I think the ground frame may have to be maintained as its levers and point detection are proved normal and locked in order to signal a train into the platform.

Surely that end won't matter as I would have though it would be protected by a "Stop and Proceed" type board at the far end of the platform (now redundant due to the sleepers blocking the way). Obviously the points at the junction at the Harbour end of Marine station will need to be proved normal

 

[HMS Ark Royal]

Obviously the points at the junction at the Harbour end of Marine station will need to be proved normal

I presume that is just a way of saying that they work correctly? Is the run-round loop still able to be used at all?

 

[Townsend Hook]

I presume that is just a way of saying that they work correctly? Is the run-round loop still able to be used at all?

It is currently locked out of use. How much work would be required to bring it back into use I couldn't say. It might be as simple as removing the clips and scotches, and oiling up the ground frame.

 

[MarkyT]

It is currently locked out of use. How much work would be required to bring it back into use I couldn't say. It might be as simple as removing the clips and scotches, and oiling up the ground frame.

That makes sense. Clearly moving the fence and having an agreement with the harbour operators not park vehicles across the tracks would also be required if the run-round was ever to be used again. I suspect the engineering and project management costs of properly removing the ground frame release and detection from the existing signalling is a significant factor here, especially seeing as the old box is on borrowed time and surely must be replaced by modern signalling sometime soon. It is more economical to just continue the very minimal maintenance required. The reason such a ground frame is required is to maintain trapping from the run-round spur and protect an incoming movement in the platform. By that means the points from the spur are maintained normally locked and switched towards the run round siding so a vehicle left there couldn't roll out into the path of the passenger arrival.

 

[Islineclear3_1]

I know this is OT but there have been many (failed) schemes to regenerate the East Quay area. When I last visited, demolition of the former LBSCR workshops were well under way. Even the company that built the swanky new flats on the West Quay has gone into administration.

In answer to somebody else's post, the signalboxes at Town and Marine were originally due to go this year, but obviously this has been put back/postponed and I'm guessing this will only happen once Lewes has been resignalled taking in the branch from Southerham Junction.

 

[HMS Ark Royal]

If anybody is interested NVM is back in the fares database

 

[DarloRich]

Do ferries still leave for Deiepe form here? I have very hazy memories of going on a school trip by coach from Middlesbrough and getting a ferry at stupid o clock and being very surprised to see a dirty blue electric train waiting right next to the boat.

Clearly - the station should be closed. It serves no purpose.

 

[trainmania100]

I like the harbour station, a number of times ive filmed some loco action there, its got a nice curve and can get some great shots
Town on the other hand, ive lost count how many times ive been bowled

 

[Doctor Fegg]

Yes, there are still ferries to Dieppe, though they're far from financially assured.

 

[paul1609]

Do ferries still leave for Deiepe form here? I have very hazy memories of going on a school trip by coach from Middlesbrough and getting a ferry at stupid o clock and being very surprised to see a dirty blue electric train waiting right next to the boat.

Clearly - the station should be closed. It serves no purpose.

Yes there are but the station closest to the current ferry terminal is Newhaven Town