GN Class 717

[Railperf]

There were at least three 717's siting at Dollands Moor on Saturday - along with a pair of 755's

 

[jon0844]

Not intending to be pendantic but I think you've overlooked the fact that Essex Road is a Network Rail station managed by Great Northern so technically you're wrong in saying the stations are under TfL control as that only applies to Highbury & Islington, Old Street and Moorgate.

Just saying

I guess at Highbury & Islington as you have cross platform interchange between Great Northern and the Victoria Line you could use the wifi that's on the LUL platforms whereas as the other stations this isn't possible.

I do have to wonder although TfL isn't responsible directly for the GN platforms why they couldn't just come to a agreement and extend their wifi to the GN platforms unless it was a conflict of interest as TfL use Virgin Mobile? and FCC/GN use O2.

I do think it would have been in the best interest of all to have wifi in both the running tunnels and in the platforms, I know TfL is finally coming out of the dark ages and is looking at doing this for their services so hopefully the powers to be will get together so the technology is available not just for TfL but also for Crossrail, Thameslink and the GN Inners so the passenger always has up to date information available via the wifi.

I do agree with Failed Unit though that service information SHOULD be available on the Class 717s regardless of location regardless of what connection is used.

Okay, so Essex Road is an exception. But I saw once the paperwork FCC published for how it works with TfL as per the franchise agreement. Obviously GTR have their own staff and procedures, while Network Rail manages the track and signalling etc.

However, things like Wi-Fi would still be down to TfL.

I expect the agreement hasn't changed and wouldn't unless TfL took over the inners.

 

[choochoochoo]

Was a passenger on one this morning. Can't believe how filthy the floors look already !

 

[jon0844]

Was a passenger on one this morning. Can't believe how filthy the floors look already !

Some stations have been gritted due to the cold weather. Was it this, or spilled coffee and the like?

 

[choochoochoo]

Some stations have been gritted due to the cold weather. Was it this, or spilled coffee and the like?

Spilled coffee and the like, but there was grit residue too.

 

[Aictos]

Spilled coffee and the like, but there was grit residue too.

Grit residue always make any floor look bad be it carpet, tile or the floor that the trains themselves have.

Still least it be easier for cleaners to clean those units

 

[Failed Unit]

A lot of subjective opinion as normal, yes I suppose so if we take your opinion that the Class 7XX are not reliability or comfortable. with nothing to offer as to replacing the Class 313 indeed I guess you would rather they last another 40 years regardless of their poor reliability?

As to the Class 700s if they were that bad WHY then at the National Rail Awards 2018 did Siemens pick up the Award for Train of the Year - Passenger for their Class 700 offering?

The Class 717s yes may well have less seating BUT the important thing which you and others neglect to say is the fact that overall they DO cater for more passengers over the Class 313s, click here for article

For example below are some figures from Paul Bigland

313s: Seated 462. Standing 384. Total 846.

717s: Seated 362. Standing 581. Total 943.

Now as to why the Class 717s are far superior to the old Class 313s:

• Air conditioning for improved comfort on-board

Again as I have stated before the heating on the Class 313s is knacked so this is very much welcomed.

• Connectivity with free Wi-Fi throughout* and power points at every pair of seats

I know most people enjoy 4G however there are some places where their mobile provider has blackspots so having a mobile
4G connection isn't helpful but also because for those who have low data allowances by using wifi where provided means
not running out of data ie those on PAYG unless you count Three of course but then again they have nowhere near the
coverage that EE has etc....

As to the power plugs, they are a bonus as I wouldn't expect them on a Metro train but there you go.

• Space for approximately 100 extra passengers per train, because passenger numbers on Great Northern have more than doubled in 16 years and this will give you more space

Be able to actually board the train in the first place is important so this extra space is important for current and future
growth.

• Wider doors, wide, open aisles and open, interconnected carriages (like a bendy bus) so that all passengers including those with accessibility needs can move easily throughout the entire train. The trains have been designed so that people can board and alight quickly, helping to keep trains running on time

Also means faster dwell times once people open up to the idea that there is more space onboard, they don't need to bunch
up by the doors - if you can explain why people prefer to do that then go ahead...

• Two-by-two seating instead of unpopular three-by-two seating

Just as well, the middle seat might well be used in the peaks but off peak I can't say I saw it in use ever!
Also means more space with the 2+2 seating inside the train.

• All trains are fixed at the maximum size of six carriages that can fit into platforms

It would be nice to have longer platforms for the GN Inners but sadly the NCL prevents this hence 6 coaches will be the
longest trains possible.

• Each train has the latest accessibility features; including more visible grab handles and wheelchair spaces with clear markings on the carriage exteriors

A increase of grab rails over the Class 313s is good and especially better with clearer markings for wheelchair users.

• Live updates from London Underground available inside the train so passengers can plan onwards journeys (except between Drayton Park & Moorgate)

This is useful to know for LUL connections especially at Finsbury Park.

I don't have access to any MTIN numbers for the simple reason that I don't buy railway magazines at all.

It is fine quoting A press release. Come back when you have actually used one in the peak.

Grab rails an improvement?

The 313s had one across each door and on the luggage racks. The 7xx are definitely worse in particular around the doors. Other posters have commented on this. But someone never travelling on one wouldn’t know this. They also wouldn’t know that knees in the aisle reduces standing room.

The air-conditioning will be a benefit in the summer. But not noticed yet. The 313s were fine at this time of year.

I do tend to prefer taking the opinions of real users. Ones that use the line over ones that GTR pay as well.

For example the 1800 Moorgate to WGC. With the 313s everyone that wanted a seat got one. Now many more NEED to stand. Is that an improvement for them? Granted in the southbound high peak people get left behind mainly in the ex-Stevenage trains. We will see if the 717s improves this. It should but will it? I think the extra Gordon Hill - Moorgate trains if / when they are introduced will have a greater impact.

In times of disruption I still expect people to be left behind.

 

[daniel1234321]

717007 is on HE53 today.

 

[Arkady]

They're an revelation. If I catch the c.8:25 in the morning peak at Harringay I can now be guaranteed to get on, which was not the case with the 313s.

Such a relief when the 1725 Moorgate arrives at Highbury and Islington during the northbound peak. A train that would have been utterly crushed, and often left people behind, still has plenty of room to move around. I was even able to get off at Harringay without asking half a dozen people to get off first. The extra space makes a huge difference.

I've never understood the complaints about the seats.

The obstructed foot space is faintly annoying- though not unique to this stock- though in my experience it's impact on the aisle is very limited.

And yes, sooner or later they'll need to add a hand rail at the end of the first and last carriage.

 

[Failed Unit]

I've never understood the complaints about the seats.

The obstructed foot space is faintly annoying- though not unique to this stock- though in my experience it's impact on the aisle is very limited.

Pages of this. But I think it comes down to lack of padding and lack of space between the window and the seat.

To me they are definitely not the least comfortable seat on a train in the UK. But likewise they are not the best in class.

I think even if they had given an extra inch most people could sit by the window with both feet facing forwards. It may have made an impact on standing room we will never know. This should really have got tested on the earlier trains.

Virgin trains, ChilternRail and BR (prototype sprinter) actually fitted different seats in different areas of the train and asked for feedback and made observations about how passengers use them. It is a pity that real user input was not invited on these trains. I have seen lots of photos of passengers knees in the aisle on the 700s.

What I do know is armrests is not the answer. The 387s with the same seats are dreadful crush loaded.

The lack of things to grab onto is also an issue on the facing seats, but around the doorways is also a problem. Lots of people can’t reach the centre pole. The grab rail across the doors and an the luggage racks of the 313s was a godsend. It is missed when one of the 313/1s is on the route. But as you say they need to do something about the ends.

 

[Aictos]

The air-conditioning will be a benefit in the summer. But not noticed yet. The 313s were fine at this time of year.

Umm no they're not, the Class 313s and their heating is awful because I remember when I used to commute on them every day for over a decade how one carriage would be freezing but go into the next carriage and it would be warm.

I doubt this ever improved, yes you can open the windows in the summer but in the winter, that's not much help.

I do tend to prefer taking the opinions of real users. Ones that use the line over ones that GTR pay as well.

GTR pay me? I'm sorry to burst your bubble of a bias view but I get no more money from GTR then you do to criticise them although if your journey is delayed then of course you get some money back...

In times of disruption I still expect people to be left behind.

I expect the opposite, I expect the new trains to be easily capable of soaking up the crowds even if you have to stand for 10 to 15 mins.

They're an revelation. If I catch the c.8:25 in the morning peak at Harringay I can now be guaranteed to get on, which was not the case with the 313s.

Such a relief when the 1725 Moorgate arrives at Highbury and Islington during the northbound peak. A train that would have been utterly crushed, and often left people behind, still has plenty of room to move around. I was even able to get off at Harringay without asking half a dozen people to get off first. The extra space makes a huge difference.

Yet people still find time to criticise them about this....

 

[jon0844]

The aisles are so much wider than a 313, I really cannot believe that when people sit with their knees slightly outward (which I do see, but hardly frequently) it reduces standing room. Legs are a lot smaller than upper bodies, so I am sure there's no real problem with someone standing in an aisle even with someone else sitting nearer the edge of the seat. At worst, people may come into contact with each other.

The lack of ceiling mounted grab rails is a definite issue, and perhaps in the future they'll find a way to retro fit something that is anchored to the side, rather than the ceiling.

Had London Overground taken over before the 717s were built, I am sure we'd have ended up with something akin to a 378 spec (or possibly some mixed seating like the S-Stock) and if usage continues to grow and nothing happens in the NCL, we may well find the 717s are reconfigured to remove more seats in the next 10-20 years.

What isn't going to happen is a change that sees more seating.

 

[Failed Unit]

As we can’t mount anything on the ceiling. What is your view of the 313 style grab rails Jon? I they had done something similar on the 717s do you think it would work?

 

[jon0844]

As we can’t mount anything on the ceiling. What is your view of the 313 style grab rails Jon? I they had done something similar on the 717s do you think it would work?

Yes, I think that would be a very good idea. Next time I get on a 717 I'll have a look and see where they might be able to attach them to the side walls. I'm sure Siemens already has an option for that type of train.

Looking back at the 700s, wasn't the DfT spec along the lines of wanting to purposely keep the area clear to encourage people to move down/along the train? Maybe they never sought to have more grab rails because they thought it would make people NOT stand there, and thus not block the doorways?

 

[Fred26]

...In other news, WiFi has been fitted at Moorgate. It hasn't been activated yet, and it may only be there for use of the trains. Details are sketchy.

 

[choochoochoo]

...In other news, WiFi has been fitted at Moorgate. It hasn't been activated yet, and it may only be there for use of the trains. Details are sketchy.

I hope it's public access. 20 minute turnarounds there can be pretty boring on the weekends.

 

[Aictos]

...In other news, WiFi has been fitted at Moorgate. It hasn't been activated yet, and it may only be there for use of the trains. Details are sketchy.

Let’s hope it’s for public use, time will tell ...

Wonder if the other stations will get it too IF the WiFi is public??

 

[Class315]

For Tonight only, the following services will be 717 vice 2 x 313.


2K17 16.48 Finsbury Park to Moorgate
2G19 17.09 Moorgate to Gordon Hill
2J33 17.54 Gordon Hill to Moorgate
2V36 18.32 Moorgate to Welwyn Garden City

 

[Fred26]

For Tonight only, the following services will be 717 vice 2 x 313.


2K17 16.48 Finsbury Park to Moorgate
2G19 17.09 Moorgate to Gordon Hill
2J33 17.54 Gordon Hill to Moorgate
2V36 18.32 Moorgate to Welwyn Garden City

313 knackered?

 

[Aictos]

313 knackered?

Probably, we all know how run down they are.

 

[choochoochoo]

313 knackered?

Think all 313s are 'knackered'

 

[hwl]

Yes, I think that would be a very good idea. Next time I get on a 717 I'll have a look and see where they might be able to attach them to the side walls. I'm sure Siemens already has an option for that type of train.

Looking back at the 700s, wasn't the DfT spec along the lines of wanting to purposely keep the area clear to encourage people to move down/along the train? Maybe they never sought to have more grab rails because they thought it would make people NOT stand there, and thus not block the doorways?

700s - Not fully though through by DfT (most of the core thinking on TL tender was done 2006-08), they now realise you need to specify about 1.5 sensible handhold options per standee, they didn't at the time.
Hence the SW ITT standing density reduction for Desiro City and stricter requirements for handhold for SW and SE tenders.
The cable routing on desiro city go up and over the doors and laterally across the vestibule so there aren't any easy options as regards adding extra as just too many removable panels (often hinged)

 

[Class315]

313 knackered?

Nothing to do with stock availability of the 313 on this occasion, that tranche of services previously listed were cancelled and have not been reinstated using a 717.

 

[choochoochoo]

GN website saying shortage of train crew between Moorgate and Stevenage today too.

 

[sprunt]

It is fine quoting A press release. Come back when you have actually used one in the peak.

Grab rails an improvement?

The 313s had one across each door and on the luggage racks. The 7xx are definitely worse in particular around the doors. Other posters have commented on this. But someone never travelling on one wouldn’t know this. They also wouldn’t know that knees in the aisle reduces standing room.

The air-conditioning will be a benefit in the summer. But not noticed yet. The 313s were fine at this time of year.

I do tend to prefer taking the opinions of real users. Ones that use the line over ones that GTR pay as well.

I use the NCL every day in the morning and evening peaks, am not in the pay of GTR, have used 717s in the peaks in both directions, and they're a vast improvement over the 313s. The thing about knees sticking out into the aisles is not something I've noticed - I try and sit in window seats where I can and have comfortably done so while facing straight forwards. The seats are a huge improvement over the seats in the 313s, as they are wider and, importantly, not falling to bits. They're a bit firmer than the 313 seats, but the horror of "ironing boards" that I've been primed by some posters here to expect is clearly hyperbole. Is this real enough for you?

 

[tofl]

I've not been on one yet but isn't the basic problem that ideally one would be catering for two audiences - people travelling on off-peak or less busy services who want a seat and want comfort, and people getting on at stations down or up the line in the peak who currently either cannot get on or are uncomfortably squeezed? I can't see it's possible to please both sets of people with the same train. Double decker trains are not an option, neither are longer trains. The only real solution is to significantly increase frequency in the peak, but I expect that would call for expensive signalling upgrades, which may arrive eventually but not yet. Or some kind of fancy train that can change its configuration depending on the time of day.
So I think the compromise arrived at is OK - but accept comments about the design of the trains being possibly less than optimal and that's something of a disappointment.
Am looking forward to the air con, and to the odd time I will find myself at Finsbury Park going north in the evening peak being able to actually get on a train in a civilised manner. Other than that I have modified my usage to get on at Moorgate going north in the evening peak and to only travel south from Hornsey at a time when the trains are not unpleasantly crowded in the morning peak. I have the luxury of that flexibility - others may not.

 

[332 > 444]

I hope it's public access. 20 minute turnarounds there can be pretty boring on the weekends.

I usually go upstairs out the station for turnarounds that long, even got brekkie once! You also get Street WiFi from O2.

 

[jon0844]

I think the existing vertical rails could be modified to have a bridge linking the two and give a rail similar to that of a 313.

 

[hwl]

I've not been on one yet but isn't the basic problem that ideally one would be catering for two audiences - people travelling on off-peak or less busy services who want a seat and want comfort, and people getting on at stations down or up the line in the peak who currently either cannot get on or are uncomfortably squeezed? I can't see it's possible to please both sets of people with the same train.

Great post. Id suggest there is a small third category - those that currently get a seat but won't in the future, they tend to be fairly vocal.

 

[hwl]

I think the existing vertical rails could be modified to have a bridge linking the two and give a rail similar to that of a 313.

View attachment 61108

Longitudinally across the doorway or laterally across the vestibule? (or Both?)