Govia get Thameslink Franchise

[SF-02]

Yep Cle it looks that way. Just looked it up and Cannon Street goes from 25 trains an hour in the peak to just 22 in 2018 after Thameslink is complete. Not only do SE and Kent not gain they seem to lose! If the Greenwich line took up 12-16 tph there's not much else for all the other services.

More trains from Hayes, Sevenoaks, Medway, Dartford, Tonbridge etc and long distance could move to Charing Cross but there's also a reduction in peak time trains also being able to go there after 2018. Some may go Victoria if there's peak time capacity (is there?) or Blackfriars I guess. I can't find much info on this at all which seems a bit worrying.

It seems like it could hit SE pretty hard. You could extend every train to make up for less paths but given growth that wont last long until capacity is strained.

EDIT : Just seen your post class377. Thanks. Those 8 to Blackfriars will make up for the cuts to Cannon Street & Charing Cross.

 

[user15681]

The 4 unit difference between 465/9 and 377 inbound should be okay because a few of the 465/9 are used on normal metro services anyway.

Also, the Gatwick to Ashford service has been scrapped for now. It was investigated but estimated that for every £1 it would cost to run, there would only be something like 20p revenue.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
The 4 unit difference between 465/9 and 377 inbound should be okay because a few of the 465/9 are used on normal metro services anyway.

Also, the Gatwick to Ashford service has been scrapped for now. It was investigated but estimated that for every £1 it would cost to run, there would only be something like 20p revenue.

 

[SF-02]

The 4 unit difference between 465/9 and 377 inbound should be okay because a few of the 465/9 are used on normal metro services anyway.

Also, the Gatwick to Ashford service has been scrapped for now. It was investigated but estimated that for every £1 it would cost to run, there would only be something like 20p revenue.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
The 4 unit difference between 465/9 and 377 inbound should be okay because a few of the 465/9 are used on normal metro services anyway.

Also, the Gatwick to Ashford service has been scrapped for now. It was investigated but estimated that for every £1 it would cost to run, there would only be something like 20p revenue.

Any chance of SE getting more stock sooner than the current plans (around 2018 isn't it?) - say by more 377s, 387s, or 700s being built to cascade 365s or 377s from FCC or southern?

 

[Class377/5]

The 4 unit difference between 465/9 and 377 inbound should be okay because a few of the 465/9 are used on normal metro services anyway.

Also, the Gatwick to Ashford service has been scrapped for now. It was investigated but estimated that for every £1 it would cost to run, there would only be something like 20p revenue.

Your forgetting the changes from the Maidstone East peak specials to Blackfriars that start this December will be replaced by 700s at the same time increasing the SE stock available.

As for the Gatwick service, ouch, but a good reason why its not running.

Any chance of SE getting more stock sooner than the current plans (around 2018 isn't it?) - say by more 377s, 387s, or 700s being built to cascade 365s or 377s from FCC or southern?

Unlikely. New stock would take about 2 years to arrive. Most of the 365 are AC only, however that doesn't mean the 16 units capable of DC won't transfer if SE can make the case.

 

[AM9]

More people standing isn't progression

Why should everything progress in a particular way? If there aren't any more 4-car TL trains then that's progression because a 700 will have more seats than a single 319. If its in the peak, on a such relatively short journeys with frequent stops, the additional capacity of an 8-car 700 over 1x or 2x319 unit(s) will be progression.
That's the nature of a metro service aside from frequency. If the passengers want to go to Blackfriars than all the Victoria trains will lightly loaded so the services will be changed.

 

[Bald Rick]

*sighs*

Pretty sure we've done all this before on other threads.

1) the info out there for southeastern in 2018 is indicative. It is 2 years before anyone starts writing the 2018 southeastern timetable. The indicated reductions to Cannon st are purely because the empty peak trains that currently route via Blackfriars after their morning peak working (and vice versa in the evening) won't be able to, because Blackfriars is full of Thameslink services. I fully expect the end result to be more than 22tph.

2) the MML sees a huge increase in peak capacity from 2018. Currently there is 15tph in the high morning peak hour, arriving St Pancras in the hour from 0804. Maximum evening peak is 13tph. GTR are contracted to operate 16tph arriving London from 0700-1000, and departing 1600-1900. Half the trains will be 12 coaches. So more tph, for more hours, with longer trains.

 

[Saint66]

*sighs*

Pretty sure we've done all this before on other threads.

1) the info out there for southeastern in 2018 is indicative. It is 2 years before anyone starts writing the 2018 southeastern timetable. The indicated reductions to Cannon st are purely because the empty peak trains that currently route via Blackfriars after their morning peak working (and vice versa in the evening) won't be able to, because Blackfriars is full of Thameslink services. I fully expect the end result to be more than 22tph.

2) the MML sees a huge increase in peak capacity from 2018. Currently there is 15tph in the high morning peak hour, arriving St Pancras in the hour from 0804. Maximum evening peak is 13tph. GTR are contracted to operate 16tph arriving London from 0700-1000, and departing 1600-1900. Half the trains will be 12 coaches. So more tph, for more hours, with longer trains.

Well this post makes fair too much sense for this forum

 

[cle]

You'd think that separating Cannon St would enable higher frequencies. I'd have it only run intensive metro services on the Dartford and Orpington lines and all the outer/Kent services go to Charing Cross. And that's it - one terminal, like most places elsewhere.

Seems like they are getting there, New Cross and St Johns won't have Charing Cross services for one. I'd make Victoria SE for metro/semi-fast services only too.

This whole history of '2tph to various southern terminals' is why we have this mess.

 

[user15681]

Your forgetting the changes from the Maidstone East peak specials to Blackfriars that start this December will be replaced by 700s at the same time increasing the SE stock available.

As for the Gatwick service, ouch, but a good reason why its not running.



Unlikely. New stock would take about 2 years to arrive. Most of the 365 are AC only, however that doesn't mean the 16 units capable of DC won't transfer if SE can make the case.

Ah yes, oops, forgot about the Maidstone Easts! Thanks for that

The Gatwick to Ashford was a shame, as I'd have liked to see it myself, but hey ho. I checked what I wrote down at the time and it was actually £1 spent for 17p revenue, so even worse. I've seen some sample timetables of the proposed Canterbury West to Horsham service, as it would have probably been, and Canterbury to Gatwick was done in 80 minutes, which I think is pretty good.

As for the new stock, unfortunately there's not much that can be done, which is a shame. There will be a case made for other units in the future, so maybe will for the 365s too.

 

[physics34]

just a little bit of news if seen or not posted already:

4 tph Bedford to "Gatwick" from december, rather than the planned reduction to 2tph.

http://www.gtrailway.com/bedford-gatwick-service-pattern-retained/

 

[Class377/5]

just a little bit of news if seen or not posted already:

4 tph Bedford to "Gatwick" from december, rather than the planned reduction to 2tph.

http://www.gtrailway.com/bedford-gatwick-service-pattern-retained/

Its been planned like this for months, its in RTT and TRUST for the last few months. Something FCC has fought for.

 

[physics34]

Its been planned like this for months, its in RTT and TRUST for the last few months. Something FCC has fought for.

Thats good. Are all 4 going though to Brighton as now? Will Southeastern services via (Herne Hill) or Southern services (via Tulse Hill) be affected because of the increased services, i.e reduction is services?

 

[Class377/5]

Thats good. Are all 4 going though to Brighton as now? Will Southeastern services via (Herne Hill) or Southern services (via Tulse Hill) be affected, i.e reduction is services?

Its going to be the following off peak

2tph Bedford to Three Bridges
2tph Bedford to Brighton
2tph London Bridge to Brighton

No reduction in services as a result, just some tight timings. Does mean 6tph Thameslink services through Gatwick/East Croydon.

 

[physics34]

Its going to be the following off peak

2tph Bedford to Three Bridges
2tph Bedford to Brighton
2tph London Bridge to Brighton

No reduction in services as a result, just some tight timings. Does mean 6tph Thameslink services through Gatwick/East Croydon.

ah ok, cheers for clearing that up.

Im sure i'll be getting delayed outside Tulse Hill frequently then when on LBG to West Croydon/Beckenhams

 

[Class377/5]

ah ok, cheers for clearing that up.

Im sure i'll be getting delayed outside Tulse Hill frequently then when on LBG to West Croydon/Beckenhams

Give it a few months to settle down first as its a fairly major change operationally before judging.

 

[Deerfold]

Its going to be the following off peak

2tph Bedford to Three Bridges
2tph Bedford to Brighton
2tph London Bridge to Brighton

No reduction in services as a result, just some tight timings. Does mean 6tph Thameslink services through Gatwick/East Croydon.

That isn't 4tph Bedford to Brighton though which is what the announcement claims.

 

[Class377/5]

That isn't 4tph Bedford to Brighton though which is what the announcement claims.

Trying reading the article gain and you'll find your error.

Bedford to Gatwick service pattern retained

Govia Thameslink Railway is pleased to confirm that its Thameslink services will continue the operation of the standard pattern of four trains per hour between Bedford and Gatwick Airport, when the London Bridge blockade begins in December 2014. These trains will go via Elephant and Castle and East Croydon.

This confirmation follows discussions with Department for Transport and Network Rail. Govia’s plans had previously ensured this level of through service between Bedford and Gatwick would be restored from December 2015.

We will provide further details on the December 2014 timetable in due course after the new franchise has started.

 

[physics34]

Give it a few months to settle down first as its a fairly major change operationally before judging.

ha ha, you dont have to defend fcc, we are together as a company now. I bet you on the first day i'll be held up

 

[Class377/5]

ha ha, you dont have to defend fcc, we are together as a company now. I bet you on the first day i'll be held up

On day one there is no different as the franchise is the same from FCC just different owning group. The one company won't happen until July next year, until then its all the same as now.

 

[Deerfold]

Trying reading the article gain and you'll find your error.

Doh. Not enough sleep last night - think I'm reading what I want to see.

Do you know if there'll be good connections from the Three Bridges and the London Bridge - Brighton service?

 

[cle]

Doh. Not enough sleep last night - think I'm reading what I want to see.

Do you know if there'll be good connections from the Three Bridges and the London Bridge - Brighton service?

Probably not - if in doubt, change at East Croydon I'd say, as most things stop.

 

[Class377/5]

Doh. Not enough sleep last night - think I'm reading what I want to see.

Do you know if there'll be good connections from the Three Bridges and the London Bridge - Brighton service?

Not really as there's a 15min gap at East Croydon and the Three Bridges service calls at Redhill.

 

[MK Tom]

My apologies if this has already been discussed, but what will happen to the Luton Airport shuttle bus when GoVia take over?

 

[Bald Rick]

It becomes a Thameslink operated Luton airport shuttle bus.

Perhaps the more pertinent question is what happens to the cherished number plates on (at least) one of the buses. I can't imagine GTR want T1FCC around for long.

 

[traji00]

My apologies if this has already been discussed, but what will happen to the Luton Airport shuttle bus when GoVia take over?

According to GTR's website it'll remain as it is currently.

Edit: answered already

 

[MK Tom]

Whereabouts on their website? I'm looking around it but I can't find that.

It'll be interesting to see what livery the buses receive.

 

[traji00]

http://www.gtrailway.com/working-for-us/joining-from-fcc/

What are GTR’s plans for the airport shuttle bus at Luton?

The airport shuttle bus operation at Luton will continue in its current format.

 

[Deerfold]

It becomes a Thameslink operated Luton airport shuttle bus.

Perhaps the more pertinent question is what happens to the cherished number plates on (at least) one of the buses. I can't imagine GTR want T1FCC around for long.

As far as I know the buses are not owned by FCC - they're certainly legally operated by First Essex so ownership will not automatically transfer to GTR.

If the operation is to continue unchanged initially presumably GTR has come to an agreement with First Essex to either continue running the service or transfer staff and vehicles.

 

[Minstral25]

Not really as there's a 15min gap at East Croydon and the Three Bridges service calls at Redhill.

Whats wrong with calling at Redhill - brilliant idea

There is a 4 minute gap at Gatwick Airport southbound and similar Northbound with Brighton Services. Nice to finally have a decent connection south from Redhill for a change.

 

[swt_passenger]

Once they've combined the franchises fully and as required removed the SN and FCC separate fares, might there be better changes possible between what are currently FCC and SN services?