Govia get Thameslink Franchise

[theageofthetra]

One thing to note from that test train pic is that they don't have plug doors. The big problem with plug doors is that if they cannot be closed then the train is out of gauge, & rules state that all trains on adjacent lines have to be stopped whilst the out of gauge train goes past. This would be very inconvenient in the packed core! I wonder how much interior space is lost per carriage by having the doors withdrawing into the sides?

 

[cle]

Shame there is absolutely no change or improvement in frequencies for anyone on the existing TL routes. The Wimbledon and Sevenoaks routes specifically are to remain poor relations.

 

[jopsuk]

The Sutton Loop/Wimbledon route was given the prospect of more frequent services. But it was to be at the expense of terminating at Blackfriars. This caused such uproar the plan was changed.

 

[AM9]

Shame there is absolutely no change or improvement in frequencies for anyone on the existing TL routes. The Wimbledon and Sevenoaks routes specifically are to remain poor relations.

Apart from the fact that all trains will be 8 cars minimum and over half will be 12 car. Not what I'd call "absolutely no change or improvement for anyone".

If your comment is typical then no wonder those with Northern as their TOC are complaining.

 

[Class377/5]

Apart from the fact that all trains will be 8 cars minimum and over half will be 12 car. Not what I'd call "absolutely no change or improvement for anyone".

If your comment is typical then no wonder those with Northern as their TOC are complaining.

Sorry but your response is completely wrong. The Wimbledon Loop and Sevenoaks are 8 cars now and can't go longer than that. These routes see no benefit from 12 cars what so ever. All they get is a minor increase in carrying capacity. Sevenoaks route will actually see a reduction in Thameslink services in peak for the record.

And its 60x 8 cars and 55x 12 cars. Not what you'd call over half are 12 cars.

 

[cle]

Sorry but your response is completely wrong. The Wimbledon Loop and Sevenoaks are 8 cars now and can't go longer than that. These routes see no benefit from 12 cars what so ever. All they get is a minor increase in carrying capacity. Sevenoaks route will actually see a reduction in Thameslink services in peak for the record.

And its 60x 8 cars and 55x 12 cars. Not what you'd call over half are 12 cars.

Thank you. All in peaks are 8 car already anyway, and outside of that, 4 car trains can usually cope. I did specifically mention frequencies too.

The Sevenoaks service is a shambles already - no further than Blackfriars on weekends for several years, and static, terrible frequencies. It has paths clearly, but nobody cares as it isn't St Albans, Tunbridge Wells or evidently now, Cambridge.

SE London is booming in terms of professionals moving there, who are more likely to use these particular routes. Check patronage at the interchanges of Denmark Hill and Peckham Rye too (the latter being a nightlife destination now also).

And I'm sure everyone's very grateful for the slur on Northerners complaining. Irrelevant and pointless.

 

[southern442]

The Sutton Loop/Wimbledon route was given the prospect of more frequent services. But it was to be at the expense of terminating at Blackfriars. This caused such uproar the plan was changed.

I agree with you. The Sutton lines need a big revival in my opinion.

 

[physics34]

Don't worry Sutton line people, you are also gonna get less seats now in the peak on the 700s aswell just to cheer you up abit.

 

[southern442]

Don't worry Sutton line people, you are also gonna get less seats now in the peak on the 700s aswell just to cheer you up abit.

Yay!

 

[Deerfold]

Thank you. All in peaks are 8 car already anyway, and outside of that, 4 car trains can usually cope. I did specifically mention frequencies too.

That's odd. I quite often get 4 car trains in the peak (or just miss them as it's further to run to where they stop).

 

[otomous]

I agree with you. The Sutton lines need a big revival in my opinion.

If the whingers of the Sutton Loop had actually looked at the proposals they'd have seen that were due to get their frequency doubled. However they were too busy knee jerking at the terrible prospect of having to change at Blackfriars for another train passing every few minutes to go further north. To be fair maybe they were whipped up by the usual hysterical and slack reporting of the local news. But I don't have much sympathy as Sutton is already served by around 10tph off peak from Victoria in addition to its loop trains as well as peak services to and from London Bridge. Not to mention having the Northern line close by and a connection to the district line at Wimbledon. And still it's lobbying for a tram to Croydon despite having 6tph to West Croydon. Compare this to the Catford Loop - serving many deprived pockets that could really do with an improved frequency; it has NO tube lines and whilst there are interchanges at Catford and Peckham there is a whole swathe that has no realistic other alternative. NB I don't consider rammed buses stuck on the A21/A2/South Circular an alternative. It was finally due to get a doubling of frequency on the 2tph section to Bromley under the Thameslink propsoals and look what happened. As usual the well heeled better organised had stolen their improvement from under their noses before they even knew what had happened. Lewisham council bleats about improving the Catford Loop but where were they? Or the local MPs? As for the loss of the Vic-Bromley service...enough said. Look forward to hearing them whinge about the continued unreliability of the Sutton Loop knowing they could have had the alternative

 

[W230]

If the whingers of the Sutton Loop had actually looked at the proposals they'd have seen that were due to get their frequency doubled. However they were too busy knee jerking at the terrible prospect of having to change at Blackfriars for another train passing every few minutes to go further north. To be fair maybe they were whipped up by the usual hysterical and slack reporting of the local news. But I don't have much sympathy as Sutton is already served by around 10tph off peak from Victoria in addition to its loop trains as well as peak services to and from London Bridge. Not to mention having the Northern line close by and a connection to the district line at Wimbledon. And still it's lobbying for a tram to Croydon despite having 6tph to West Croydon. Compare this to the Catford Loop - serving many deprived pockets that could really do with an improved frequency; it has NO tube lines and whilst there are interchanges at Catford and Peckham there is a whole swathe that has no realistic other alternative. NB I don't consider rammed buses stuck on the A21/A2/South Circular an alternative. It was finally due to get a doubling of frequency on the 2tph section to Bromley under the Thameslink propsoals and look what happened. As usual the well heeled better organised had stolen their improvement from under their noses before they even knew what had happened. Lewisham council bleats about improving the Catford Loop but where were they? Or the local MPs? As for the loss of the Vic-Bromley service...enough said. Look forward to hearing them whinge about the continued unreliability of the Sutton Loop knowing they could have had the alternative

Couldn't agree with you more. The new scenario is ridiculous and shows the problems with politicians meddling in things they don't quite understand. Terminating them at Blackfriars makes so much more sense and would also help to isolate the service from disruption.

Also, many a loopee changes trains at Wimbledon for services to Waterloo. So they really are spoilt with options. FWIW I can't imagine it's possible to get many more trains between Sutton and Wimbledon in the peak at the moment anyway as it's 2 aspect signalling and already you often end up held at St Helier in the peak having caught up a Southern stopper. I think the signalling would need at least 3 aspect to improve the headways.

And as stated the services via the Catford loop are getting busier and busier. Though i'm not sure how easy it is to fit more stoppers in there without holding up the Victoria fasts that use that route but will bow down to those with more knowledge.

 

[Class377/5]

Thank you. All in peaks are 8 car already anyway, and outside of that, 4 car trains can usually cope. I did specifically mention frequencies too.

The Sevenoaks service is a shambles already - no further than Blackfriars on weekends for several years, and static, terrible frequencies. It has paths clearly, but nobody cares as it isn't St Albans, Tunbridge Wells or evidently now, Cambridge.

SE London is booming in terms of professionals moving there, who are more likely to use these particular routes. Check patronage at the interchanges of Denmark Hill and Peckham Rye too (the latter being a nightlife destination now also).

And I'm sure everyone's very grateful for the slur on Northerners complaining. Irrelevant and pointless.

What services Southeastern will offer come 2018 from the bays will be interesting as they will have to do at least 1tph via Catford.

That's odd. I quite often get 4 car trains in the peak (or just miss them as it's further to run to where they stop).

There isn't that many four cars left (planned) but there isn't enough stock to have everything 8 cars.

Compare this to the Catford Loop - serving many deprived pockets that could really do with an improved frequency; it has NO tube lines and whilst there are interchanges at Catford and Peckham there is a whole swathe that has no realistic other alternative. NB I don't consider rammed buses stuck on the A21/A2/South Circular an alternative. It was finally due to get a doubling of frequency on the 2tph section to Bromley under the Thameslink propsoals and look what happened. As usual the well heeled better organised had stolen their improvement from under their noses before they even knew what had happened. Lewisham council bleats about improving the Catford Loop but where were they? Or the local MPs? As for the loss of the Vic-Bromley service...enough said. Look forward to hearing them whinge about the continued unreliability of the Sutton Loop knowing they could have had the alternative

What doubling of the 2tph? Or do you mean the limited stop Maidstone East service? The Victoria to Bromley South service has nothing to do with Thameslink but TfL and Southeastern.

 

[otomous]

Well W230, this is one of the other things that gets to me (climbing on hobby horse). If you look at a day's activity through Catford, outside of the peaks there are odd empty stock movements to Bellingham sidings; and just a once hourly Vic-Gillingham service that runs fast to Bromley South. There are a LOT of freight paths, many of which are Q trains, ie not always needed. Thameslink will run a Maidstone semi fast (whatever that means) in selected off peak hours (whatever THAT means) . So there are paths for a doubling of the service - even if it's to Victoria that would be something, maybe even preferable - Vic SE side is poorly utilised off peak. I feel that it's a matter of the SE London users of this line just not having any clout in political or TOC circles. When you look at the hits the area has taken - lost the original Fleet line, South London Line, Vic-Bellingham/Bromley new service, and now an improved Thameslink frequency gone something smells of fish. Personally as a quick fix I'd turn the Gillingham train into a stopper - back in the mid 80s the loop was alternatively Blackfriars-Sevenoaks/Gillingham in fact. There can't be many travellers who opt for this slow train to get to the Medway from Vic over the Ramsgate/Dover fasts; Longfield and Meopham are already served by them also; and at least Farningham Road and Sole Street have the chance to change at Bromley South for a faster service.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
It was my understanding that the loop was going to get 2 Thameslink Sevenoaks trains an hour and 2 Blackfriars terminators to Bromley South an hour in the original plan before the Southern/Thameslink/GN merge became the franchise spec. I know the Vic-Bromley South service loss was a bit of TFL skulduggery but I'm looking at an overall picture. Maybe this is part of the problem - there are too many cooks and none of them are really interested. I really hope you are right about SE having to provide the extra trains as they seem to be very much a 'do the minimum' TOC (try their wonderful packed 2tph Orpington-Victoria on a hot summer Sunday).

 

[Class377/5]

It was my understanding that the loop was going to get 2 Thameslink Sevenoaks trains an hour and 2 Blackfriars terminators to Bromley South an hour in the original plan before the Southern/Thameslink/GN merge became the franchise spec. I know the Vic-Bromley South service loss was a bit of TFL skulduggery but I'm looking at an overall picture. Maybe this is part of the problem - there are too many cooks and none of them are really interested. I really hope you are right about SE having to provide the extra trains as they seem to be very much a 'do the minimum' TOC (try their wonderful packed 2tph Orpington-Victoria on a hot summer Sunday).

The Blackfriars bays - Catford Loop service are a separate idea from the Victoria to Bromley service.

The TfL one was just off peak and could be cheaply implemented by using stock that would normally be sat around in sidings.

The Blackfriars bays is a peak only service that directly replaces some of the current services. Its not been directly referred yet that is happening but its the plan. Will be interesting which route the Orpington to Blackfriars services take, especially with the planned 12 car one, however things may of changed already.

It won't be SE plan but what the DfT spec for 2018.

 

[cle]

An Orpington to Blackfriars 12 car can't stop anywhere after Bromley South, surely?

Victoria to Bromley is gone, sadly. Blackfriars to Sevenoaks should be in addition to the current services.

I'm curious about the Maidstone semi-fast service. Today's outers from TL to Kent don't stop between Elephant and Bromley, but Denmark Hill seems to be going up in the world (see the Faversham/Dover plan for Jan 2015) so possibly this could stop? That would be something for the Catford route, at least. Peckham too, possibly.

 

[Class377/5]

An Orpington to Blackfriars 12 car can't stop anywhere after Bromley South, surely?

Victoria to Bromley is gone, sadly. Blackfriars to Sevenoaks should be in addition to the current services.

I'm curious about the Maidstone semi-fast service. Today's outers from TL to Kent don't stop between Elephant and Bromley, but Denmark Hill seems to be going up in the world (see the Faversham/Dover plan for Jan 2015) so possibly this could stop? That would be something for the Catford route, at least. Peckham too, possibly.

Just doubled checked (been awhile), 12 car Orpington won't happen in the final timetable in the format I've got, but would have stopped at Elephant & Castle only before Bromley South.

As for the Maidstone East service, there is some info on the map Govia produced including it won't stop at Denmark Hill or Peckham Rye but will call at Elephant & Castle and Swanley. Also is the note its a peak only service and only runs in the peak direction, ie to the Core/Luton on the morning and from Luton/Core in the evening.

Blackfriars bays to Catford Loop isn't additional as the Thameslink Sevenoaks becomes an all day 2tph set service with additional peak services run by Southeastern to keep capacity up to the current (or possibly better) levels.

Post 2018 the Thameslink all day services will be set pattern all day with peak services fixed around them.

 

[Minstral25]

Post 2018 the Thameslink all day services will be set pattern all day with peak services fixed around them.

It would be really good if this happens so Commuters on and off peak know exactly when to turn up for a train rather than trying to guess the Peak frequencies.

The numbers of each type of unit does then create the question which services will get the 12 coach units.

I'd assume Brighton - Cambridge and Brighton - Bedford will be 12 coach sets

On 8 coach definite's - all Wimbledon Loop trains, Cambridge to Tattenham, Sevenaoks - Luton plus the peak services to Luton - Maidstone and Welwyn - Caterham based on platform lengths.

That leaves Horsham - Peterborough and Bedford - Three Bridges could be either 8 or 12 coach, plus the peaks for East Grinstead and Littlehampton. Both lines fully operable as 12 coach and I'd assume that most trains will be from a need basis especially in the peaks.

 

[Class377/5]

It would be really good if this happens so Commuters on and off peak know exactly when to turn up for a train rather than trying to guess the Peak frequencies.

The numbers of each type of unit does then create the question which services will get the 12 coach units.

I'd assume Brighton - Cambridge and Brighton - Bedford will be 12 coach sets

On 8 coach definite's - all Wimbledon Loop trains, Cambridge to Tattenham, Sevenaoks - Luton plus the peak services to Luton - Maidstone and Welwyn - Caterham based on platform lengths.

That leaves Horsham - Peterborough and Bedford - Three Bridges could be either 8 or 12 coach, plus the peaks for East Grinstead and Littlehampton. Both lines fully operable as 12 coach and I'd assume that most trains will be from a need basis especially in the peaks.

Don't assume as the last full timetable I saw had 8 cars on Bedford to Brighton alongside the 12 cars (avoiding peak flows) but Govia may have different plans. Littlehampton and East Grinsteads should be a 12 car.

 

[AM9]

Don't worry Sutton line people, you are also gonna get less seats now in the peak on the 700s aswell just to cheer you up abit.

Well it is a metro service.

 

[Class377/5]

Well it is a metro service.

Care to explain how a 2tph is a metro service in your eyes?

 

[physics34]

Well it is a metro service.

More people standing isn't progression

 

[cle]

Just doubled checked (been awhile), 12 car Orpington won't happen in the final timetable in the format I've got, but would have stopped at Elephant & Castle only before Bromley South.

As for the Maidstone East service, there is some info on the map Govia produced including it won't stop at Denmark Hill or Peckham Rye but will call at Elephant & Castle and Swanley. Also is the note its a peak only service and only runs in the peak direction, ie to the Core/Luton on the morning and from Luton/Core in the evening.

Blackfriars bays to Catford Loop isn't additional as the Thameslink Sevenoaks becomes an all day 2tph set service with additional peak services run by Southeastern to keep capacity up to the current (or possibly better) levels.

Post 2018 the Thameslink all day services will be set pattern all day with peak services fixed around them.

Isn't Elephant only 8 car?

I didn't see where the Maidstone stopping pattern was - did you mean here:
http://assets.goaheadbus.com/media/cms_page_media/1273/Factsheet 9 - Kent Thameslink services.pdf
Can't see mention of lengths or stopping.

Shame that the Victoria Orpington semis from weekend closures aren't made permanent (but could run from TL) - fast from Denmark Hill to Shortlands then all stations. I'd maybe swap with the Sevenoaks as it's an awful lot of stops. Not that anyone from Bat & Ball is employed!

 

[Class377/5]

Isn't Elephant only 8 car?

I didn't see where the Maidstone stopping pattern was - did you mean here:
http://assets.goaheadbus.com/media/cms_page_media/1273/Factsheet 9 - Kent Thameslink services.pdf
Can't see mention of lengths or stopping.

Shame that the Victoria Orpington semis from weekend closures aren't made permanent (but could run from TL) - fast from Denmark Hill to Shortlands then all stations. I'd maybe swap with the Sevenoaks as it's an awful lot of stops. Not that anyone from Bat & Ball is employed!

SDO means 12 cars can and have stopped at Elephant.

Try this map. Gives some details with some stops on it and clearly showing Maidstone East is fast from Elephant & Castle and won't stop at Denmark Hill and Peckham Rye.

http://assets.goaheadbus.com/media/cms_page_media/1254/Proposed 2018 Thameslink service pattern.pdf

As for train length, well its 8 car as pretty much most of the route is 8 car only so 12 cars would be a waste.

EDIT:

GTR have added a news item in its website

http://www.gtrailway.com/bedford-gatwick-service-pattern-retained/

Bedford to Gatwick service pattern retained


Govia Thameslink Railway is pleased to confirm that its Thameslink services will continue the operation of the standard pattern of four trains per hour between Bedford and Gatwick Airport, when the London Bridge blockade begins in December 2014. These trains will go via Elephant and Castle and East Croydon.

This confirmation follows discussions with Department for Transport and Network Rail. Govia’s plans had previously ensured this level of through service between Bedford and Gatwick would be restored from December 2015.

We will provide further details on the December 2014 timetable in due course after the new franchise has started.

Considering this was arranged and agreed awhile ago, its a bit cheeky for GTR to claim it as theirs.

 

[SF-02]

I'm pretty confused about SE routes post 2018 so hopefully someone can tell me the latest thinking.

After 2018 there are 5 fewer peak train paths for SE trains to Cannon Street & Charing Cross through London Bridge from Kent to make way for Thameslink, which seems a big cut.

But are there any extra Thameslink trains from Kent? It appears not.

Are there more trains to Victoria and Blackfriars to compensate if services are indeed cut through London Bridge? If there are extras to Blackfriars will those be operated by Southeastern? I'm guessing so (if they exist) as I can't find much on Thameslink documents.

What role does the class 377s from cascading from Southern have in this? If more services to Blackfriars will the 377s be on those?

These have probably been answered and sorry if they have. I've seen so much conflicting information.

 

[Domh245]

I think that the 377s going from Southern to South Eastern are just to supplement the existing fleet, and I would imagine go into a common pool.

 

[cle]

Thanks Class 377 for those links.

SF-02, it does seem as if the winner from TL 2000 are the Southern users (London Bridge terminators) which are now through the core. Plus Gatwick services running via London Bridge in the peaks properly. Hence all of the gains are on those routes.

Kent and Southeastern users gain very little. Indeed, they are losing paths and direct trains to Charing Cross (I'd expect Cannon St to Greenwich line to increase a lot to compensate - like 12-16tph and become a proper metro). Catford and Wimbledon too, plus the West Dulwich line users who had the odd core train, now to be Blackfriars only.

So, great if you live in Purley or Coulsdon South basically. No new frequencies really, just extensions and longer trains.

And as for the existing West Hampstead line and their lack of improvements...

 

[lev441]

Thanks Class 377 for those links.

SF-02, it does seem as if the winner from TL 2000 are the Southern users (London Bridge terminators) which are now through the core. Plus Gatwick services running via London Bridge in the peaks properly. Hence all of the gains are on those routes.

Kent and Southeastern users gain very little. Indeed, they are losing paths and direct trains to Charing Cross (I'd expect Cannon St to Greenwich line to increase a lot to compensate - like 12-16tph and become a proper metro). Catford and Wimbledon too, plus the West Dulwich line users who had the odd core train, now to be Blackfriars only.

So, great if you live in Purley or Coulsdon South basically. No new frequencies really, just extensions and longer trains.

And as for the existing West Hampstead line and their lack of improvements...

From what i've seen, there's no improvement of frequencies north of the core... I guess longer trains will help for now..

 

[infobleep]

Care to explain how a 2tph is a metro service in your eyes?

I don't know much about that service but the Guildford to Waterloo via Cobham and Guildford to Waterloo via Bookham is only 2tph each and they are classed as metro services. Same for the Woking stopper to Waterloo.

Where as Alton to Waterloo and Basingstoke to Waterloo are both each 2tph and they are not considered to be metro services AFAIK.

 

[Class377/5]

I'm pretty confused about SE routes post 2018 so hopefully someone can tell me the latest thinking.

After 2018 there are 5 fewer peak train paths for SE trains to Cannon Street & Charing Cross through London Bridge from Kent, which seems a big cut.

But are there any extra Thameslink trains from Kent? It appears not.

Are there more trains to Victoria and Blackfriars to compensate if services are indeed cut? If there are to Blackfriars will those be operated by Southeastern? I'm guessing so (if they exist) as I can't find much on Thameslink documents.

What role does the class 377s from cascading from Southern have in this? If more services to Blackfriars will the 377s be on those?

These have probably been answered and sorry if they have. I've seen so much conflicting information.

There will be something like 8tph in the peak to/from Blackfriars bays but be run by Southeastern. The plan is (or was last time Id heard) to do a consultation on the next Southeastern franchise with which routes and the alterations post KO2.

The 377s are supposed to replace the networkers on the Tunbridge Wells/Maidstone East services to replace the Networkers which will go to the metro routes allowing 12 car workings. The idea is for 29x 'Weald' 465 to be replaced by 25x 377 while Thameslink takes over some Maidstone East services covering the 4 unit gap.

The cascade plan was in negotiations in the summer so is subject to change. One idea floating is a Ashford to Gatwick via Redhill service.

The MML doesn't see an increase in tph but gets double figure capacity increases. Not what I'd call no improvements.