Govia get Thameslink Franchise

[Bald Rick]

It can't be easy doing a recast of an area as complicated as the WCML.

Recasting the WCML isn't easy. However compared to recasting the Brighton main line, it's a walk in the park.

 

[physics34]

The answer south of the thames would be a set of fast points between clapham and wandsworth common. This would allow milton keynes services to easily run to gatwick/brighton fast.

These would actually help generally and slow line to fast line movement at balham happens occasionally anyway especially during disruption and engineering works.

Expensive of course but would open up a world of opportunity.

 

[Class377/5]

The answer south of the thames would be a set of fast points between clapham and wandsworth common. This would allow milton keynes services to easily run to gatwick/brighton fast.

These would actually help generally and slow line to fast line movement at balham happens occasionally anyway especially during disruption and engineering works.

Expensive of course but would open up a world of opportunity.

There enough planned at Clapham for he future without adding in more stuff.

Personally I don't see why making the Milton Keynes service fast south of The river would help as its a stopping service pretty most of the way, its just on the WCML its stations are further apart. Not go mention the risk from crossing services over all the lines outside Clapham which is a major performance risk in my view.

 

[physics34]

There enough planned at Clapham for he future without adding in more stuff.

Personally I don't see why making the Milton Keynes service fast south of The river would help as its a stopping service pretty most of the way, its just on the WCML its stations are further apart. Not go mention the risk from crossing services over all the lines outside Clapham which is a major performance risk in my view.

i think there would be demand for an hourly brighton/gatwick to milton keynes fast (fast from East croydon to clapham), and a half hourly East Croydon to Shepherds Bush or Watford stopper (all stns).

These fast points at the london end of WWC would deem the points at the london end of Balham redundant and at least the 'flashing yellow' system could be implemented so that the points can be crossed at 50mph or more.

Yes the crossing over of lines could cause performance risk but at least there is less chance of this than having the 25mph points at balham and like i said they would have uses in other scenarios.

 

[Bald Rick]

The answer south of the thames would be a set of fast points between clapham and wandsworth common. This would allow milton keynes services to easily run to gatwick/brighton fast.

These would actually help generally and slow line to fast line movement at balham happens occasionally anyway especially during disruption and engineering works.

Expensive of course but would open up a world of opportunity.

It's also not possible due to track curvature. To put points there would require linespeeds on all lines to be lowered, and the points themselves would be in the region of 20mph.

Besides, the fast lines are full of services (that are full of people) going to Central London in the peak, which of these paths would be chosen to divert to the WLL?

 

[Class377/5]

i think there would be demand for an hourly brighton/gatwick to milton keynes fast (fast from East croydon to clapham), and a half hourly East Croydon to Shepherds Bush or Watford stopper (all stns).

These fast points at the london end of WWC would deem the points at the london end of Balham redundant and at least the 'flashing yellow' system could be implemented so that the points can be crossed at 50mph or more.

Yes the crossing over of lines could cause performance risk but at least there is less chance of this than having the 25mph points at balham and like i said they would have uses in other scenarios.

The point is 2tph would interfere with the Down Fast on a very busy section of track.

Demand for an hourly service doesn't not justify the affect you'd have on the many busy services on the Fast Lines. And that's without the performance risk.

 

[Minstral25]

The point is 2tph would interfere with the Down Fast on a very busy section of track.

Demand for an hourly service doesn't not justify the affect you'd have on the many busy services on the Fast Lines. And that's without the performance risk.

I agree - to take the Milton Keynes trains across to the fast lines would create a massive downgrading of the Fast line from Victoria.

Demand may be there and in which case it would make more sense to stop Gatwick Expresses at Clapham Junction which would also serve the much larger number of passengers changing of SWT/LO services at Clapham and needing to get to Gatwick.

That way also Clapham could be set up signalling wise for all trains to stop and would perhaps improve reliability

 

[physics34]

The point is 2tph would interfere with the Down Fast on a very busy section of track.

Demand for an hourly service doesn't not justify the affect you'd have on the many busy services on the Fast Lines. And that's without the performance risk.

what im saying is fast points would have less of an impact and theres room to install them because of the straight track there.

Anyway, my point is the fact that the journey is so slow between croydon and clapham, its still worth while travelling via london euston if you want watford or beyond.

The service would be great if it started from Brighton or Gatwick but not while it runs slow between Croydon and Clapham.

 

[talldave]

...Demand may be there and in which case it would make more sense to stop Gatwick Expresses at Clapham Junction which would also serve the much larger number of passengers changing of SWT/LO services at Clapham and needing to get to Gatwick....

In which case the word "Express" would have to be removed from the side of the 442s in addition to the already removed "Gatwick"

 

[GatwickDepress]

In which case the word "Express" would have to be removed from the side of the 442s in addition to the already removed "Gatwick"

Put "Semi-Fast" on the sides instead?

 

[physics34]

It's also not possible due to track curvature. To put points there would require linespeeds on all lines to be lowered, and the points themselves would be in the region of 20mph.

Besides, the fast lines are full of services (that are full of people) going to Central London in the peak, which of these paths would be chosen to divert to the WLL?

no the straight section between wwc and clapham junction

 

[Class377/5]

what im saying is fast points would have less of an impact and theres room to install them because of the straight track there.

Anyway, my point is the fact that the journey is so slow between croydon and clapham, its still worth while travelling via london euston if you want watford or beyond.

The service would be great if it started from Brighton or Gatwick but not while it runs slow between Croydon and Clapham.

No, the impact is the same. Putting additional tracks interfering with through services causes issues where ever you place them. On such busy section of track its just not feasible suggestion.

If you really want a fast service you can change at Clapham but your point of it being quicker to via Euston also forgets that via the WLL isn't quick either and your idea only partially speeds the journey time up.

 

[swt_passenger]

I remember reading the case that was made back in the mid 2000s to run the WLL service on the slows south of Clapham Jn, and it definitely all made sense to me at the time. I have been right through all the possible RUSs just now, i.e. Brighton, Sussex, South London, Cross London and London and SE to no avail, so it must have been somewhere else, perhaps in a track access application. Not forgetting that there were also some infrastructure improvements that took place at South Croydon specifically to allow the extension of the WLL to terminate there, and they must have had a justifiable cost, which presumably leads to the conclusion that the service is staying on the slows for a while...

 

[physics34]

No, the impact is the same. Putting additional tracks interfering with through services causes issues where ever you place them. On such busy section of track its just not feasible suggestion.

If you really want a fast service you can change at Clapham but your point of it being quicker to via Euston also forgets that via the WLL isn't quick either and your idea only partially speeds the journey time up.

i give up!

 

[21C101]

The WLL service used to run from Brighton to Rugby originally I recall but they could'nt afford to waste an hourly path on both lines on a secondary service so it was cut back to MK and turned into a slow to East (South) Croydon.

Personally I think the following would be a better use of paths all round:

• Rebuild the slow line platforms at Willesden enabling the London Midland services to call there.

• Scrap the S Croydon to MK and replace with increasing the overground Clapham - Willesden service to from 2 to 4

• Overground services extended two per hour to West Croydon via Norbury and two extended to Beckenham Junction via Crystal Palace

• This would release the London Bridge to Beckenham Jct service to be diverted to South Croydon giving West Norwood, Gypsy Hill and C Palace direct services to East Croydon.

• Those wishing to go on north can then change at Willesden Junction onto London Midland who would have an extra path per hour from MK to Euston (and eventually Crossrail) to boot.

 

[mr_jrt]

The WLL service used to run from Brighton to Rugby originally I recall but they could'nt afford to waste an hourly path on both lines on a secondary service so it was cut back to MK and turned into a slow to East (South) Croydon.

Personally I think the following would be a better use of paths all round:

• Rebuild the slow line platforms at Willesden enabling the London Midland services to call there.

• Scrap the S Croydon to MK and replace with increasing the overground Clapham - Willesden service to from 2 to 4

• Overground services extended two per hour to West Croydon via Norbury and two extended to Beckenham Junction via Crystal Palace

• This would release the London Bridge to Beckenham Jct service to be diverted to South Croydon giving West Norwood, Gypsy Hill and C Palace direct services to East Croydon.

• Those wishing to go on north can then change at Willesden Junction onto London Midland who would have an extra path per hour from MK to Euston (and eventually Crossrail) to boot.

I've been saying that for years - all I ever get is being told that passengers are too lazy to change, despite Clapham Junction proving quite to the contrary.

 

[21C101]

I've been saying that for years - all I ever get is being told that passengers are too lazy to change, despite Clapham Junction proving quite to the contrary.

They are, they are, this is proved every day as I sit on empty underground trains in central London during peak hourse because everyone else drives to central London because they don't want to change trains at termini onto an underground.

I reckon, make the service frequent and people won't mind changing. Ideally every 10 minutes but I think every 15 minutes is probably the most frequent feasible service.

 

[JaJaWa]

Are the train logos on separate vinyls? Surely something like this wouldn't cost loads to implement and makes the franchise seem much more integrated.

 

[infobleep]

I agree - to take the Milton Keynes trains across to the fast lines would create a massive downgrading of the Fast line from Victoria.

Demand may be there and in which case it would make more sense to stop Gatwick Expresses at Clapham Junction which would also serve the much larger number of passengers changing of SWT/LO services at Clapham and needing to get to Gatwick.

That way also Clapham could be set up signalling wise for all trains to stop and would perhaps improve reliability

What would they need to do, in order for all trains to be able to stop at Clapham Junction? On the South West Trains fast lines, no trains can stop at Clapham Junction because so many trains run. Less Go Ahead run trains run on the fast line through Clapham Junction, which is why some can stop. I doubt they could stop any more currently though.

It does lead to interesting situations where the gap between direct services to Brighton is over an hour because all the Brighton services for a time are Gatwick Expresses.

I've been saying that for years - all I ever get is being told that passengers are too lazy to change, despite Clapham Junction proving quite to the contrary.

As passenger who travels on South West Trains, there were times in the past when I'd love to change at Clapham Junction but it just wasn't possible due to the current infrastructure. If I really wanted to go via Clapham Junction I could, so as long as I travelled on a very slow service with no loos. So to avoid having no loos and the additional 25-30 minute journey on top of my then 1h30m journey, I'd go via central London and help clog up the tubes some more. That's just the way things were. I did try to avoid peak rush hour where possible but if I avoided it in the morning, I'd end up travelling through it in the evening, thus requiring the tubes.

Still all of this meant I needed a zones 1-6 travel card instead of zones 2-6, so the companies made more money. Not that they was their direct intention. Just a bonus for them.

 

[physics34]

Are the train logos on separate vinyls? Surely something like this wouldn't cost loads to implement and makes the franchise seem much more integrated.

Go-Ahead are very brand orientated. They think that the current gatwick express and Southern logos are too well known by the public to change them. It also comes down to a matter of cost.

I agree that they should use the logos you suggest, and i think the southern livery which is now 10 years old needs a change.

Maybe later in the franchise they will change it.

 

[387star]

Go-Ahead are very brand orientated. They think that the current gatwick express and Southern logos are too well known by the public to change them. It also comes down to a matter of cost.

I agree that they should use the logos you suggest, and i think the southern livery which is now 10 years old needs a change.

Maybe later in the franchise they will change it.

The livery is fine

 

[physics34]

The livery is fine

10 years....its boring now and too ubiquitous

 

[AM9]

10 years....its boring now and too ubiquitous

Clearly you aren't worried about TOCs wasting money on trivial matters.

 

[backontrack]

Don't Go-Ahead own Southeastern as well? They seem to be leaving it alone despite it being Southern's sister TOC.

 

[21C101]

Go-Ahead are very brand orientated. They think that the current gatwick express and Southern logos are too well known by the public to change them. It also comes down to a matter of cost.

I agree that they should use the logos you suggest, and i think the southern livery which is now 10 years old needs a change.

The Southern Target logo and livery (sort of) is 91 one years old and they would be mad to change such a well known brand.

If you want a new livery and logo update I recommend all over malachite green, with Maunsell green doors (to keep DDA happy) and SOUTHERN sunshine lettering

Along with proper enamel Target station signs bolted to new hangman lamp posts with white shades at stations, reintroduction of proper two number headcodes on all services and modification of all the 37x and new thameslink stock to have only 2+2 facing seats with tables and a proper buffet that does toasted bacon sandwiches.

Plus all waterloo exeter services operated with bulleid pacifics (alright I'm getting silly now but I think there are enough preserved to actually do it.....)

 

[physics34]

The Southern Target logo and livery (sort of) is 91 one years old and they would be mad to change such a well known brand.

If you want a new livery and logo update I recommend all over malachite green, with Maunsell green doors (to keep DDA happy) and SOUTHERN sunshine lettering

Along with proper enamel Target station signs bolted to new hangman lamp posts with white shades at stations, reintroduction of proper two number headcodes on all services and modification of all the 37x and new thameslink stock to have only 2+2 facing seats with tables and a proper buffet that does toasted bacon sandwiches.

Plus all waterloo exeter services operated with bulleid pacifics (alright I'm getting silly now but I think there are enough preserved to actually do it.....)

ha ha sounds great!!!!!!!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Don't Go-Ahead own Southeastern as well? They seem to be leaving it alone despite it being Southern's sister TOC.

yep, different franchise terms and contract. wouldnt be surprised if govia lose it next time out.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Clearly you aren't worried about TOCs wasting money on trivial matters.

when trains are up for repainting, thats the chance to change the livery, thats not wasting money...

Southern when it started and the livery was meant to be a 'fresh new start' etc... now i think its time for another fresh new start.

 

[Class377/5]

The Southern Target logo and livery (sort of) is 91 one years old and they would be mad to change such a well known brand.

If you want a new livery and logo update I recommend all over malachite green, with Maunsell green doors (to keep DDA happy) and SOUTHERN sunshine lettering

Along with proper enamel Target station signs bolted to new hangman lamp posts with white shades at stations, reintroduction of proper two number headcodes on all services and modification of all the 37x and new thameslink stock to have only 2+2 facing seats with tables and a proper buffet that does toasted bacon sandwiches.

Plus all waterloo exeter services operated with bulleid pacifics (alright I'm getting silly now but I think there are enough preserved to actually do it.....)

I'm trying to work out if you being serious or not with this idea?

 

[ModernRailways]

10 years....its boring now and too ubiquitous

It may be boring but it's a very well known logo. Maybe not for all the right reasons but it's certainly well known. As soon as you see the Southern green people immediately think Southern. All their trains are in the same livery/style of livery and that only helps the brand to be more recognisable.

Also, whilst the franchise may be joining, it's still best to pretend to the general public that it's too different companies. By not going with the same style as the new Thameslink and Great Northern logo they keep Southern as a separate brand and so should Thameslink be a giant catastrophe but Southern stay as is, then people won't bring the two routes together.

For some reason, I feel like I made that last point more confusing than it needs to be so if it is too confusing let me know and I'll try to change it.

 

[AM9]

It may be boring but it's a very well known logo. Maybe not for all the right reasons but it's certainly well known. As soon as you see the Southern green people immediately think Southern. All their trains are in the same livery/style of livery and that only helps the brand to be more recognisable.

Also, whilst the franchise may be joining, it's still best to pretend to the general public that it's too different companies. By not going with the same style as the new Thameslink and Great Northern logo they keep Southern as a separate brand and so should Thameslink be a giant catastrophe but Southern stay as is, then people won't bring the two routes together.

For some reason, I feel like I made that last point more confusing than it needs to be so if it is too confusing let me know and I'll try to change it.

I think I understand. If Southern is OK then if it 'aint broke, don't mend it. If it is bad in the experience of real passengers from where most of the fares come, (as opposed to rail enthusiasts) who only want trains to be safe, clean, on-time etc.. I don't think that a different colour scheme will impress them after the first week. I can hear the comments: "wonder how much this is costing us", because they will be the ones to pay.

 

[physics34]

It may be boring but it's a very well known logo. Maybe not for all the right reasons but it's certainly well known. As soon as you see the Southern green people immediately think Southern. All their trains are in the same livery/style of livery and that only helps the brand to be more recognisable.

Also, whilst the franchise may be joining, it's still best to pretend to the general public that it's too different companies. By not going with the same style as the new Thameslink and Great Northern logo they keep Southern as a separate brand and so should Thameslink be a giant catastrophe but Southern stay as is, then people won't bring the two routes together.

For some reason, I feel like I made that last point more confusing than it needs to be so if it is too confusing let me know and I'll try to change it.

true i believe thats always been go-aheads strategy and is a good one, i have no real trouble with the logo really, just would like a different livery, still green based...... or at least some units in different liveries. (not like 456006 had though)!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I think I understand. If Southern is OK then if it 'aint broke, don't mend it. If it is bad in the experience of real passengers from where most of the fares come, (as opposed to rail enthusiasts) who only want trains to be safe, clean, on-time etc.. I don't think that a different colour scheme will impress them after the first week. I can hear the comments: "wonder how much this is costing us", because they will be the ones to pay.

well the 455s have recently been repainted and something couldve been done then. and surely the 377s that have been refreshed have only had bits and pieces of the exterior repainted will need a full repaint in the next 5 years.