Govia get Thameslink Franchise

[Class377/5]

Just a quick post, but I've recently heard that one 319, and one 365 will have the branding added to it on the second day of the franchise with more units receiving the new logo too. Apparently, trains will have the First Capital Connect removed, and be left in their current colours just with the new logo slapped on the side for a few months. Stock will then be refurbished, re-liveried with minor refurbishment or cascaded away.

The FCC logo has already been removed. I\m betting a 377 or three may have the logos on day 2.

Did you read Physics34's post - they said "from 2018" which is when Thameslink services start using those stations (but they will still be served by some GN services to Kings X). If you're not going to mention Thameslink on services that go through the Thameslink core that'll be confusing.

Not really. The trains will have different branding. It will be no different on GN as on the Southern region where Thameslink trains stop at Southern stations so I can't believe the GN passengers are unable to cope.

You've got the wrong end of the stick here, I think. In the 2018 state all trains that run through the core will only ever be in the Thameslink livery and branding.

A current GN service that in 2018 is to be diverted from Kings Cross via St Pancras will no longer be a GN service, it will be operated by Thamesink 700s just the same as on the Southern routes that will transfer.

SWT is correct.

 

[Deerfold]

Not really. The trains will have different branding. It will be no different on GN as on the Southern region where Thameslink trains stop at Southern stations so I can't believe the GN passengers are unable to cope.

But we're talking about stations. Which may have posters that apply to both GN and Thameslink. Is it so hard to beileve they may use "Thameslink GN" branding in these cases?

 

[Class377/5]

But we're talking about stations. Which may have posters that apply to both GN and Thameslink. Is it so hard to beileve they may use "Thameslink GN" branding in these cases?

Yes. Other wise your going to have to rename a load of Southern stations. The fact that its been made clear that Southern stations aren't being touched shows dual branding isn't going to happen. Claims of confusing passengers are a poor attempt to justify that belief, ignoring the reality of the existing parts of the network where two separately branded services run if your idea was sound then you'd expect Wembley Central, Tring etc to be London Midland Southern.

 

[Deerfold]

Yes. Other wise your going to have to rename a load of Southern stations. The fact that its been made clear that Southern stations aren't being touched shows dual branding isn't going to happen. Claims of confusing passengers are a poor attempt to justify that belief, ignoring the reality of the existing parts of the network where two separately branded services run if your idea was sound then you'd expect Wembley Central, Tring etc to be London Midland Southern.

Why is impossible that some stations would have one poster about two brands and another would have to have two seperate ones? London Midland and Southern are not part of the same franchise (even if they do have the same owner) whereas GN and Thameslink are.

 

[Class377/5]

Why is impossible that some stations would have one poster about two brands and another would have to have two seperate ones? London Midland and Southern are not part of the same franchise (even if they do have the same owner) whereas GN and Thameslink are.

Posters are not branding, which is what I've been talking about. Currently you get FCC posters at stations, so its continuing the current set up and expanding it really. The stations themselves will have a single branding depending on which group they belong to.

 

[Deerfold]

Posters are not branding, which is what I've been talking about. Currently you get FCC posters at stations, so its continuing the current set up and expanding it really. The stations themselves will have a single branding depending on which group they belong to.

Posters certainly aren't the only form of branding - that was just an example. We'll have to see what happens to stations that appear to belong to more than one group.

 

[jon0844]

When Oyster is extended to Gatwick, what will the fare be and will Southend be able to restrict usage of Oyster on Gatwick Express?

I just took my wife and son to Gatwick and it was cheaper for me to buy a ticket from St Albans (any permitted) than it would be from Victoria!

But surely Oyster can't have different rates for Any Permitted, Southern Only, Not Gatwick Express, and FCC only.

Sent from my XT1068 using Tapatalk

 

[JaJaWa]

When Oyster is extended to Gatwick, what will the fare be and will Southend be able to restrict usage of Oyster on Gatwick Express?

I just took my wife and son to Gatwick and it was cheaper for me to buy a ticket from St Albans (any permitted) than it would be from Victoria!

But surely Oyster can't have different rates for Any Permitted, Southern Only, Not Gatwick Express, and FCC only.

Sent from my XT1068 using Tapatalk

Oyster will either be valid on all services or all services except Gatwick Express, haven't had this confirmed. It is being subsidised by TfL so may be cheaper than any of the current fares.

 

[Class377/5]

When Oyster is extended to Gatwick, what will the fare be and will Southend be able to restrict usage of Oyster on Gatwick Express?

I just took my wife and son to Gatwick and it was cheaper for me to buy a ticket from St Albans (any permitted) than it would be from Victoria!

But surely Oyster can't have different rates for Any Permitted, Southern Only, Not Gatwick Express, and FCC only.

Sent from my XT1068 using Tapatalk

Smartcard card technology can have different tickets stored on the card so you can have the same range as paper. Its up to the user to use correctly just like the current situation with paper tickets. Iyster can store 'tickets' on it.

 

[JaJaWa]

Smartcard card technology can have different tickets stored on the card so you can have the same range as paper. Its up to the user to use correctly just like the current situation with paper tickets. Iyster can store 'tickets' on it.

It's Oyster pay-as-you-go that's coming to Gatwick so you will just touch in and out without loading a ticket on.

 

[jon0844]

Smartcard card technology can have different tickets stored on the card so you can have the same range as paper. Its up to the user to use correctly just like the current situation with paper tickets. Iyster can store 'tickets' on it.

For things like The Key yes, but Oyster isn't like that.

Hence I can travel cheaper into London using Oyster than buying a paper ticket (having the Gold Card discount applied to my Oyster, and also benefiting from the price capping) - but that's within the zonal system.

There's quite a jump if you travel out to Broxbourne, where AGA sets the fare.

So that's why I wonder how much it will cost on Oyster. Presumably Southern will get to set the fare, and will seek to make it as high as possible - like the Any Permitted rate.

If that doesn't happen, you'd be better off using Oyster I bet. And there would surely be no way to stop you using Gatwick Express, unless it can be done like HS1 - but isn't that the route, as against the train?

 

[Class377/5]

For things like The Key yes, but Oyster isn't like that.

Oyster can hold tickets, what do you think a seasonal travelcard is? Oyster system is being altered (at the DfTs expense) to allow it to work with ISTO cards.

Hence I can travel cheaper into London using Oyster than buying a paper ticket (having the Gold Card discount applied to my Oyster, and also benefiting from the price capping) - but that's within the zonal system.

There's quite a jump if you travel out to Broxbourne, where AGA sets the fare.

So that's why I wonder how much it will cost on Oyster. Presumably Southern will get to set the fare, and will seek to make it as high as possible - like the Any Permitted rate.

If that doesn't happen, you'd be better off using Oyster I bet. And there would surely be no way to stop you using Gatwick Express, unless it can be done like HS1 - but isn't that the route, as against the train?

Grays on Oyster uses the fare according to c2c, question of how PAYG Oyster works is going to be interesting as Oyster is prefect and forcing more into its database won't make it better. Watford is another example of hos this works with a 'unoffical' W zone created to make Oyster work.

Oyster use on GatEx may be restricted or altered by making the barriers to only the GatEx platform work differently and charge a different rate. Only difference with the Oyster vs paper is you pay prior with paper.

 

[jon0844]

I know they can hold tickets. I had one for many years.

But I am talking solely about PAYG.

And, yes, I know PAYG is sort of available on some other smartcard systems.

I very much doubt TfL plans on having standard tickets loaded on to the Oyster card system, thus keeping all the different paper ticket options (and the m-tickets I also saw people using today). It will be a touch in at Victoria and touch out at Gatwick, and therefore it seems you could use whatever train you wanted.

If they bodge it like they've done with Watford, Broxbourne etc then I imagine the fare will be the any permitted fare. Thus, it will offer the convenience to Oyster card holders, but a paper ticket will potentially offer better value. Gatwick Express would be allowed, as you've effectively paid for it whether used or not.

 

[Skimpot flyer]

There's two trains running across the handover time at 0200.

Curiously, one of them, 2F78 0056 Kings X - Letchworth (arr 0205) is technically the last FCC service whilst the other, 2G03 0129 Blackfriars - Bedford is officially the first GTR.

Although I suspect if the occasion is marked, alternative trains will be used.

I wonder if the (former FCC) driver of the 0129 train would dare to override the automated announcements and give manual announcements thus:

This is the first Govia Thameslink train to Bedford, calling at...

Talk about 'brand confusion' for passengers

 

[ChiefPlanner]

When good old North London Railways disappeared in March 1997 - from memory the last "BR" train was the 0134 EN - MK , and the first NX service was the 0331 MK - EN. No big deal at all - though for the record , the unit numbers were recorded ,as well as the train crew on the diagrams. The 0331 did have afresh set of stock though from BY - as very late evening trains could get a bit messy internally.

I suspect FCC will do a Dylan Thomas (a very strong interest of mine) " - "Do not gently into .....etc " ......without the raging ...

 

[Busaholic]

When good old North London Railways disappeared in March 1997 - from memory the last "BR" train was the 0134 EN - MK , and the first NX service was the 0331 MK - EN. No big deal at all - though for the record , the unit numbers were recorded ,as well as the train crew on the diagrams. The 0331 did have afresh set of stock though from BY - as very late evening trains could get a bit messy internally.

I suspect FCC will do a Dylan Thomas (a very strong interest of mine) " - "Do not gently into .....etc " ......without the raging ...

Or they could do Llareggub!

 

[Aictos]

Posters are not branding, which is what I've been talking about. Currently you get FCC posters at stations, so its continuing the current set up and expanding it really. The stations themselves will have a single branding depending on which group they belong to.

Correct me if I'm wrong but with stations such as Stevenage which will see both GN and TL services from 2018, surely it just be a case of having both brands in use on posters ie seperate posters, where joint posters are needed just stick logos on the bottom like the PF notices and on the CIS screens which is just the case as it is at many stations served by more then one TOC?

I know from the 14th September to 2018 single branding will be in use though, I just fail to see how passengers will get confused with the branding as been mentioned by others?

 

[Class 170101]

I would assume for cost reasons and that the Units are ordered by Southern but for use with TL... like the 377/5s

Southern has been used as a procurement vehicle for the extra Class 377 (and presumably the Class 387) units as they already had follow on orders possible in the existing contracts. If FCC had to order the units then a new offical process would have had to have been gone through.

 

[bussnapperwm]

I wonder if the (former FCC) driver of the 0129 train would dare to override the automated announcements and give manual announcements thus:

This is the first Govia Thameslink train to Bedford, calling at...

Talk about 'brand confusion' for passengers

I've already booked my tickets just to hear that happen!!

 

[Pretendolino]

So, with a week to go, does anybody have much of an idea of how GTR will be structured in terms of organisation? We currently have:

CEO - Charles Horton
CFO - Wilma Allan
COO - Dyan Crowther

HR Director - Andy Bindon
Engineering Director - Gerry McFadden
Programme Director - Keith Wallace
Integration Director - (Has been appointed but I've forgotten their name).

Are there more Directors yet to come? It will be interesting to see how this corporate structure fares against the typical MD and directorate format. I'm wondering just how far down the chain I'll end up (provided I keep a similar job upon TUPE'ing over).

 

[Class377/5]

So, with a week to go, does anybody have much of an idea of how GTR will be structured in terms of organisation? We currently have:

CEO - Charles Horton
CFO - Wilma Allan
COO - Dyan Crowther

HR Director - Andy Bindon
Engineering Director - Gerry McFadden
Programme Director - Keith Wallace
Integration Director - (Has been appointed but I've forgotten their name).

Are there more Directors yet to come? It will be interesting to see how this corporate structure fares against the typical MD and directorate format. I'm wondering just how far down the chain I'll end up (provided I keep a similar job upon TUPE'ing over).

Most of the structure is being carried over.

Southern has been used as a procurement vehicle for the extra Class 377 (and presumably the Class 387) units as they already had follow on orders possible in the existing contracts. If FCC had to order the units then a new offical process would have had to have been gone through.

387 were procured by Southern as agents of the DfT. FCC was busy with the 700 order so getting FCC to order new units would have diverted resources away.

Correct me if I'm wrong but with stations such as Stevenage which will see both GN and TL services from 2018, surely it just be a case of having both brands in use on posters ie seperate posters, where joint posters are needed just stick logos on the bottom like the PF notices and on the CIS screens which is just the case as it is at many stations served by more then one TOC?

I know from the 14th September to 2018 single branding will be in use though, I just fail to see how passengers will get confused with the branding as been mentioned by others?

It'll be similar to the situation on the BML with two posters for different groups. The CIS, trains will have separate branding with different types of trains used to help separate services in the minds of passengers.

As for the confusion, well Brighton, Cambridge, Bedford, Peterbrough, East Croydon all have one branding but multiple TOCs calling there without any claims of confusion so I don't understand why a single person would find it confusing on other GN station.

 

[user15681]

With regards to separate brands at shared stations, there is one single logo incorporating both the Thameslink and Great Northern brands, so maybe that'll be used.

There will be a lot of information to digest next week when the website goes live, there's a huge amount on there.

 

[Class377/5]

With regards to separate brands at shared stations, there is one single logo incorporating both the Thameslink and Great Northern brands, so maybe that'll be used.

There will be a lot of information to digest next week when the website goes live, there's a huge amount on there.

There's no single logo for Thameslink and Great Northern combined, only GTR which won't mean anything. In fact that the new staff passes should the four GTR brands alongside LM & SE, giving a clear indication how Govia sees the GTR brands sitting together separately.

All GTR staff should be getting a welcome pack this week.

 

[bussnapperwm]

As an aside, does anyone know who'll be doing the last fcc into blackfriars (0055 Rail replacement Bus from London Bridge, arriving 0110)?

 

[infobleep]

Oyster will either be valid on all services or all services except Gatwick Express, haven't had this confirmed. It is being subsidised by TfL so may be cheaper than any of the current fares.

How our TFL able to afford this? Is it simply due to the vast numbers that use public transport in London compared to anywhere else in the country?

 

[thelem]

There's no single logo for Thameslink and Great Northern combined

See a couple of pages back:

http://www.gtrailway.com/coming-soon-new-website-app-twitter-feed/

 

[Pretendolino]

Most of the structure is being carried over.

How do you know this? I heard that there will be separate route directors, which is certainly different to the current setup. I'm reasonably sure everything at station level will be similar but I'm interested in the head office (in particular Finance).

 

[Manchester77]

How do you know this? I heard that there will be separate route directors, which is certainly different to the current setup. I'm reasonably sure everything at station level will be similar but I'm interested in the head office (in particular Finance).

Probably because he works for FCC if iirc

 

[Aictos]

Most of the structure is being carried over.

It'll be similar to the situation on the BML with two posters for different groups. The CIS, trains will have separate branding with different types of trains used to help separate services in the minds of passengers.

As for the confusion, well Brighton, Cambridge, Bedford, Peterbrough, East Croydon all have one branding but multiple TOCs calling there without any claims of confusion so I don't understand why a single person would find it confusing on other GN station.

This I know, I was merely commenting on the discussion between yourself and Deerfold

Any idea what the welcome packs contain?

 

[Class377/5]

How do you know this? I heard that there will be separate route directors, which is certainly different to the current setup. I'm reasonably sure everything at station level will be similar but I'm interested in the head office (in particular Finance).

Probably because he works for FCC if iirc

Manchester77 is correct. Can't say everything but what I can tell you is most of the structure has been confirmed as staying at least initially.

Note the initial head office of GTR is the same one currently being used by FCC.

See a couple of pages back:

I'm not sure that is actually going to be used like that, especially with the two twitter feeds having seperate accounts. Certainly the staff materials being used so far show the two seperately with the single company GTR used for internal only.

This I know, I was merely commenting on the discussion between yourself and Deerfold

Any idea what the welcome packs contain?

Not too sure but guess a general welcome and a run down of what GTR plans and the FAQs online and on internal web site.