Govia get Thameslink Franchise

[MK Tom]

As far as I know the buses are not owned by FCC - they're certainly legally operated by First Essex so ownership will not automatically transfer to GTR.

If the operation is to continue unchanged initially presumably GTR has come to an agreement with First Essex to either continue running the service or transfer staff and vehicles.

This is what I'm wondering - the buses could return to First Essex and some vehicles be brought in from a nearby GoAhead operation like Carousel or Headingham.

 

[DelayRepay]

Hi

What will be the last service First Capital Connect run? Is there likely to be anything special to mark the occasion?

 

[Bald Rick]

There's two trains running across the handover time at 0200.

Curiously, one of them, 2F78 0056 Kings X - Letchworth (arr 0205) is technically the last FCC service whilst the other, 2G03 0129 Blackfriars - Bedford is officially the first GTR.

Although I suspect if the occasion is marked, alternative trains will be used.

 

[tsr]

These also run across the handover time:
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/G71940/2014/09/13/advanced
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/X41081/2014/09/13/advanced

 

[MK Tom]

This is what I'm wondering - the buses could return to First Essex and some vehicles be brought in from a nearby GoAhead operation like Carousel or Headingham.

In furtherance to this, why hasn't it been cancelled on VOSA yet, if it's going to become a GoVia Thameslink shuttle? Perhaps First will continue to operate it for a time?

https://www.tan.gov.uk/tanen/vosa_selfservicebusroutesview.asp?txtLicenceId=16469&txtLicenceNo=PF0000599&cboRegNoFilter=PF0000599/277

 

[Domh245]

I note that they are being individually branded on TOPS (or at least on realtime trains) with TL running through the core and GN from KGX

 

[button_boxer]

I note that they are being individually branded on TOPS (or at least on realtime trains) with TL running through the core and GN from KGX

And from earlier in the thread this seems to be the idea for the future too, keeping the various brand names separate for Thameslink, Southern, Gatwick Express, etc.

Where does this leave us with regard to Gatwick Express? Presumably if they have to abolish Southern Only/FCC Only tickets then they'll replace them with "not Gatwick Express", and the question of whether GX is allowed to be the subject of an operator restriction will remain... Either that or they abolish the lot and make everyone buy the Any Permitted at a higher price.

 

[JaJaWa]

And from earlier in the thread this seems to be the idea for the future too, keeping the various brand names separate for Thameslink, Southern, Gatwick Express, etc.

Where does this leave us with regard to Gatwick Express? Presumably if they have to abolish Southern Only/FCC Only tickets then they'll replace them with "not Gatwick Express", and the question of whether GX is allowed to be the subject of an operator restriction will remain... Either that or they abolish the lot and make everyone buy the Any Permitted at a higher price.

I've heard the services will be operated as GN, GX, SN and TL until May 2015 when they will be operated by GT. I've also heard that TfL will be funding Oyster (and potentially standard ticket) acceptance on Gatwick Express, partially in order to reduce congestion at Victoria. Oyster will definitely be valid on some services from Gatwick within the next couple of months.

Also, the "bus service continuing in it's current form" suggests the same buses will be used. I suspect Govia will switch it to using one of their own bus service registrations as soon as possible, although this may not be straight away.

 

[swt_passenger]

I've heard the services will be operated as GN, GX, SN and TL until May 2015 when they will be operated by GT...

Not according to their own presentation, which clearly refers to four customer facing brands. The 2 letter codes are presumably required for passenger information systems to work out which operator to show on displays - putting up GTR for all of their trains would be removing useful information for passengers? What would be the point of introducing 'Great Northern' and 'Thameslink' for only 9 months?

Based on what they've already published I can see no evidence at all that they will operate as 'GTR' only after May 2015.

 

[MK Tom]

Their website says Southern will continue to exist as a separate brand after the actual merger takes effect next year.

 

[JaJaWa]

Their website says Southern will continue to exist as a separate brand after the actual merger takes effect next year.

I am in no way denying that the Gatwick Express and Southern brands will continue to exist from May 2015, they certainly will. I have heard that the Department for Transport will allow them to only issue GT / GTR-only tickets only after this date however.

 

[DelayRepay]

In furtherance to this, why hasn't it been cancelled on VOSA yet, if it's going to become a GoVia Thameslink shuttle? Perhaps First will continue to operate it for a time?

https://www.tan.gov.uk/tanen/vosa_selfservicebusroutesview.asp?txtLicenceId=16469&txtLicenceNo=PF0000599&cboRegNoFilter=PF0000599/277

Are these buses actually part of the rail franchise? I recall that they used to be operated by someone else under contract to the airport, until First Capital Connect took over. Could it be that these buses are operated by First Group (as opposed to First Capital Connect) under contract to the airport and therefore will just continue as they are now?

 

[infobleep]

Whats wrong with calling at Redhill - brilliant idea

There is a 4 minute gap at Gatwick Airport southbound and similar Northbound with Brighton Services. Nice to finally have a decent connection south from Redhill for a change.

I would have thought 4 minutes at Gatwick Airport was less than the official minimum connection time which for changes from Southern to First Great Western at least is 10 minutes.

If your train South came into platform 3 a minute late, without running you might struggle to reach a train on platform 7 which might depart on time.

I've heard the services will be operated as GN, GX, SN and TL until May 2015 when they will be operated by GT. I've also heard that TfL will be funding Oyster (and potentially standard ticket) acceptance on Gatwick Express, partially in order to reduce congestion at Victoria. Oyster will definitely be valid on some services from Gatwick within the next couple of months.

Also, the "bus service continuing in it's current form" suggests the same buses will be used. I suspect Govia will switch it to using one of their own bus service registrations as soon as possible, although this may not be straight away.

 

[JaJaWa]

Are these buses actually part of the rail franchise? I recall that they used to be operated by someone else under contract to the airport, until First Capital Connect took over. Could it be that these buses are operated by First Group (as opposed to First Capital Connect) under contract to the airport and therefore will just continue as they are now?

The contract used to be awarded by Luton Airport (they awarded it to NCP last) and the bus was free. First Capital Connect took control of the contracting (and gained the ability to introduce a charge) in return for a multi-million pound investment in new buses. First have currently contracted the buses to First Essex East (previously they contracted them to First Northampton). It remains to be seen whether this contract can or will continue after 14 September. Govia plan to make the bus service free of charge again.

http://www.gtrailway.com/coming-soon-new-website-app-twitter-feed/

In other news, it seems the TOC name may be Thameslink Great Northern from 14 September. I wonder if Govia have had issues splitting up FCC.

 

[swt_passenger]

In other news, it seems the TOC name may be Thameslink Great Northern from 14 September. I wonder if Govia have had issues splitting up FCC.

Your theory is not supported by the existence of two separate twitter feeds that they announce on the linked page, with separate addresses for Thameslink and Great Northern.

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

... I have heard that the Department for Transport will allow them to only issue GT / GTR-only tickets only after this date however.

That's already known - the ITT required then to do away with the separate FCC fares for London to Brighton and some other flows once the franchises are combined with SN. Given that this is already fairly well known in these forums I didn't mention fares issues, it would be going over old ground.

 

[JaJaWa]

Your theory is not supported by the existence of two separate twitter feeds that they announce on the linked page, with separate addresses for Thameslink and Great Northern.

Yes trains on the Thameslink route will display the Thameslink logo and trains on the Great Northern route will display the Great Northern logo. But the introduction of this new "Thameslink Great Northern" brand suggests there have been issues splitting FCC completely in two.

That's already known - the ITT required then to do away with the separate FCC fares for London to Brighton and some other flows. Given that this is already fairly well known in these forums I didn't mention fares issues, it would be going over old ground.

Ok - well I was replying to a post about fares, with information about fares.

 

[Bald Rick]

'Thameslink Great Northern' will be used for any customer facing stuff that can only be done across both brands. No idea what that might be.

GTR will not be used in any customer facing context.

 

[physics34]

'Thameslink Great Northern' will be used for any customer facing stuff that can only be done across both brands. No idea what that might be.

GTR will not be used in any customer facing context.

At any stations where both 'brands' stop.

 

[Bald Rick]

At any stations where both 'brands' stop.

Which stations are those then?

 

[Class377/5]

Branding on units will be simply Thames link or Great Northern initally with a logo. Won't be long until they are public any way. Less than 10 days left now.

 

[physics34]

Which stations are those then?

Finsbury Park - Welwyn GC/Peterborough/Stevenage/Cambridge...from 2018 of course.

Im sure from the 14th itll be used on posters in the area etc etc
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Branding on units will be simply Thames link or Great Northern initally with a logo. Won't be long until they are public any way. Less than 10 days left now.

Will will see if they get the logo on the outside of any units on the first day!

Havent heard of any launch events etc etc?

 

[Class377/5]

Finsbury Park - Welwyn GC/Peterborough/Stevenage/Cambridge...from 2018 of course.

Im sure from the 14th itll be used on posters in the area etc etc

Those are GN stations. Thameslink branding will only be put on stations solely served by Thameslink (ie MML etc)

Will will see if they get the logo on the outside of any units on the first day!

Havent heard of any launch events etc etc?

There may be logo before launch day.

Not heard of anything yet but would be surprised if something wasn't done.

 

[Skimpot flyer]

Trying to plan a journey on FCC's (rather good) app today, all working as normal, until just before the times of individual trains fitting my search criteria normally load.
Then a pop-up window appears, stating
Alert!
This app will no longer be available after Sept 13. Tickets bought before this date will still be accessible and valid for travel.

I wrongly assumed that the new franchise holders would find some way of just delivering an update to the app, which in my experience, is one of the better ones on my phone. Rather irritating that this will no longer function

 

[Class377/5]

Trying to plan a journey on FCC's (rather good) app today, all working as normal, until just before the times of individual trains fitting my search criteria normally load.
Then a pop-up window appears, stating
Alert!
This app will no longer be available after Sept 13. Tickets bought before this date will still be accessible and valid for travel.

I wrongly assumed that the new franchise holders would find some way of just delivering an update to the app, which in my experience, is one of the better ones on my phone. Rather irritating that this will no longer function

GTR are having a purple version of the Govia On Track app. All the main groups have thier own version so its not just a simple case of transfering data over sadly.

 

[JaJaWa]

GTR are having a purple version of the Govia On Track app. All the main groups have thier own version so its not just a simple case of transfering data over sadly.

Don't think Govia's lets you buy tickets! I'll probably switch to the First Great Western app as that appears to be the same as the FCC one.

 

[DelayRepay]

Those are GN stations. Thameslink branding will only be put on stations solely served by Thameslink (ie MML etc)

Maybe the joint branding will be used for the Thameslink core stations, when the GN trains start running through the core? We shall have to wait and see!

The joint branding might also be used for things like passenger charter leaflets, delay repay forms etc where they might decide not to print separate versions for each route.

We'll soon find out...

 

[jon0844]

It would make sense for trains that use both lines to have both logos on the side, although that might also present some issues and causes for confusion I suppose.

The way FCC did things seemed to work fine. One company, one brand, but two distinct routes within that. Govia has another approach and it will be interesting to not only see how they do things on day one, but how it evolves (and if they make changes and tweaks that they didn't intend to based on feedback).

I am not sure that with the two routes being connected properly in 2018, yet still being very much separate for a LOT of people on their daily commute, it works to clearly mark them as one service or another. Govia must hope that the use of the same logo design, but with different colours and text, will be seen as obviously connected by everyone.

With two websites and two Twitter feeds, it may have many people beginning to think the lines have totally split from when FCC was running things, and are now separate franchises. I assume the two websites will be one and the same, but with a different home screen based on the URL used.

But Southeastern has different sub-brands for services, and back in the day we had differently marked rolling stock for Thameslink, so I am sure it will all work out.

And where it doesn't, they'll be called out on it here for sure!

 

[swt_passenger]

Maybe the joint branding will be used for the Thameslink core stations, when the GN trains start running through the core? We shall have to wait and see!

You've got the wrong end of the stick here, I think. In the 2018 state all trains that run through the core will only ever be in the Thameslink livery and branding.

A current GN service that in 2018 is to be diverted from Kings Cross via St Pancras will no longer be a GN service, it will be operated by Thamesink 700s just the same as on the Southern routes that will transfer.

 

[ModernRailways]

Just a quick post, but I've recently heard that one 319, and one 365 will have the branding added to it on the second day of the franchise with more units receiving the new logo too. Apparently, trains will have the First Capital Connect removed, and be left in their current colours just with the new logo slapped on the side for a few months. Stock will then be refurbished, re-liveried with minor refurbishment or cascaded away.

 

[Deerfold]

Those are GN stations. Thameslink branding will only be put on stations solely served by Thameslink (ie MML etc)

Did you read Physics34's post - they said "from 2018" which is when Thameslink services start using those stations (but they will still be served by some GN services to Kings X). If you're not going to mention Thameslink on services that go through the Thameslink core that'll be confusing.