Guards or conductors?

[feline1]

I was just wondering if there's a difference between a 'train guard' and a 'conductor'?
Are they just different names for the same thing, or are they actually different jobs?
When speaking over the train's PA system, I usually hear "This is your conductor speaking" but I often hear the same member of staff referred to as "the guard".
Also I often seem to be on trains where there either is no guard, or there's only a guard for part of the journey (eg some Gatwick Express services between Brighton and London Victoria, where the guard gets on or off at Gatwick).
What's the rationale?

(sorry if this is in the wrong sub-forum!)

 

[Lincoln]

In the rule book they are referred to as Guards and are expected to introduce themselves as such when dealing with safety critical matters which is dealt with in the rule book which all companies adhere to ensuring common ground in identifying responsibilities.

However that said train operating companies tend to call their Guards something more customer friendly on the job spec and name badge. Such as Senior Conductor, Train Manager etc.

Hope this helps!

 

[najaB]

In the rule book they are referred to as Guards and are expected to introduce themselves as such when dealing with safety critical matters which is dealt with in the rule book which all companies adhere to ensuring common ground in identifying responsibilities.

Except, of course, in DOO areas where they are commonly called ticket inspectors. The difference being that they perform no dispatch duties.

 

[Solent&Wessex]

Except, of course, in DOO areas where they are commonly called ticket inspectors. The difference being that they perform no dispatch duties.

Which means they are not actually Guards.

In non-DOO areas trains cannot run without a Guard. In DOO areas they can run without a ticket inspector.

A Guard has specific safety training and responsibilities in both normal running and disturbed operations. A ticket inspector does not.

BR started the trend of renaming Guards in the public eye, primarily for the reason highlighted above - to give a more customer focussed / friendly name to them. Numerous names have been adopted depending on the route and actual roles - Conductor, Senior Conductor, Train Manager etc. A few areas retained the name Guard to the public. East Coast and SWT for example.

My name badge says "Conductor" whereas my safety critical certificate of competence says I am a "Guard".

 

[Bletchleyite]

I have noticed a tendency on Stagecoach TOCs, principally SWT but I have also heard it on VTEC (which is of course a Stagecoach TOC with Virgin branding), for the guard to introduce himself to passengers as "the guard" or even (shudder) "the train guard" over the PA. It's more usual on other TOCs for the phrase used to be "conductor", "senior conductor" or "train manager".

 

[pemma]

I don't know of any TOCs which still refer to guards. It always seems to be conductors or train managers, usually the latter on Intercity services. In the case of EMT's non-London services they refer to the conductors as senior conductors and they place job adverts for trainee senior conductors!!!

 

[feline1]

I see, thanks for the explanations!

What's a "DOO area"?

 

[pemma]

What's a "DOO area"?

One where the driver has control of the doors. It stands for Driver Only Operation but it doesn't necessarily mean the driver is the only member of staff on board.

 

[najaB]

Which means they are not actually Guards.

Sorry, I didn't make it clear. That's actually the point I was making: not all the people you see on board the train checking tickets are guards.

 

[feline1]

One where the driver has control of the doors. It stands for Driver Only Operation but it doesn't necessarily mean the driver is the only member of staff on board.

Ah, I see.
So non-DOO would be like on a 'Coastway East' Southern service I was on this week, where the Guard has a control panel in one of the carriage vestibules? He unlocks it with a key and there's a screen and a load of buttons in there.
I was faintly amused because he wandered off for about 2 minutes into a different carriage, leaving it unlocked with the keys in it.
Maybe I just didn't look like a potential hijacker But I was intrigued what would happen if I started pressing the buttons or pocketed the keys Maybe going to find him saying "here mate, you've forgotten something!" and handing them back...

 

[najaB]

Ah, I see.
So non-DOO would be like on a 'Coastway East' Southern service I was on this week, where the Guard has a control panel in one of the carriage vestibules? He unlocks it with a key and there's a screen and a load of buttons in there.

Yes.

But I was intrigued what would happen if I started pressing the buttons or pocketed the keys...

I hope you like talking with BTP officers.

 

[feline1]

Yes.
I hope you like talking with BTP officers.

Well that's he problem, there's never one around when you want one, is there!

Are guards supposed to leave that control panel unattended with the keys in? I kinda guessed the keys were there so they could lock it shut when they had to be elsewhere...

 

[najaB]

Are guards supposed to leave that control panel unattended with the keys in? I kinda guessed the keys were there so they could lock it shut when they had to be elsewhere...

Depends on what they are doing. At some locations they need to leave the panel to do dispatch duties.

 

[feline1]

Depends on what they are doing. At some locations they need to leave the panel to do dispatch duties.

My best guess is he popped into the disabled loo for a quick **** Either than or the adjacent carriage for some reason.
It wasn't that he left the panel so much as that he left it open and unlocked with the keys hanging in. And his ticket machine too.

 

[LowLevel]

I don't know of any TOCs which still refer to guards. It always seems to be conductors or train managers, usually the latter on Intercity services. In the case of EMT's non-London services they refer to the conductors as senior conductors and they place job adverts for trainee senior conductors!!!

It's a historical thing. BR had senior conductors and conductors as revenue guards (as well as trainmen who were non-revenue guards and worked suburban services/freight trains where required coming up to privatisation). Senior conductors worked for Intercity. Conductors worked for NSE and Regional Railways/ScotRail. When Central Trains and I think Silverlink came into being though they inherited both grades owing to where depots were allocated etc. As part of an early pay deal they got rid of their conductor grade and brought all staff up to senior conductor and that's how it's stayed since as they've not been restructured.

In practice however I refer to myself as 'the guard' because I find 'senior conductor' sounds overly pretentious for someone in charge of a 153 (though I suppose I do class one work as well!).

 

[HLE]

Guard.

But if we compare how the role has changed over the years then it would definitely be senior conductor. Definitely now more focused on the customer service/tickets side of things rather than route/traction knowledge like it was back in t'day.

Either way I still refer to them as the guard to everyone I speak to.

 

[BestWestern]

Are guards supposed to leave that control panel unattended with the keys in? I kinda guessed the keys were there so they could lock it shut when they had to be elsewhere...

No, never.

On most trains, there is something called a 'Door Key Switch', essentially an 'on/off' control which energises the buttons on a particular panel so that they will function. This 'on/off' switch is turned with a key, which can generally be removed in either position - so the Guard can activate the panel, remove his keys and the buttons will still work. There is no need to leave keys hanging in the panel, and it is poor form to do so (I'm aware, though, that Southern Guards are very much in the habit of doing this, although generally they tend to be stood closeby in my experience). Certainly at my TOC if you left keys unattended during an assessment the Competence Managers are likely to remove them and leave you red faced!

 

[Mojo]

I don't know of any TOCs which still refer to guards. It always seems to be conductors or train managers, usually the latter on Intercity services. In the case of EMT's non-London services they refer to the conductors as senior conductors and they place job adverts for trainee senior conductors!!!

On East Coast their name badges say "Train Guard" and they announce themselves as the guard.

I think I remember seeing South West Trains name badges also saying Guard. That is certainly what their website still calls them http://www.southwesttrains.co.uk/guard.aspx and there is a current job advert looking for a Guard.

 

[BestWestern]

On East Coast their name badges say "Train Guard" and they announce themselves as the guard.

I think I remember seeing South West Trains name badges also saying Guard. That is certainly what their website still calls them http://www.southwesttrains.co.uk/guard.aspx and there is a current job advert looking for a Guard.

They are indeed still Guards on SWT; they announce themselves as such on the PA (and quite rightly too!)

 

[greaterwest]

I have noticed a tendency on Stagecoach TOCs, principally SWT but I have also heard it on VTEC (which is of course a Stagecoach TOC with Virgin branding), for the guard to introduce himself to passengers as "the guard" or even (shudder) "the train guard" over the PA. It's more usual on other TOCs for the phrase used to be "conductor", "senior conductor" or "train manager".

I have only ever heard Train Manager board long distance trains (primarily GWR), where they are indeed Train Managers, otherwise I have only ever heard them introduce themselves as a guard.

 

[Mojo]

I have only ever heard Train Manager board long distance trains (primarily GWR), where they are indeed Train Managers, otherwise I have only ever heard them introduce themselves as a guard.

CrossCountry, East Midlands (Intercity services only), Great Western, and Virgin call their guards a "Train Manager."

I believe GB Railfreight call their drivers "Train Managers" and there is also a similar sounding role on Highspeed services from Southeastern called the "On Board Manager" who is not a guard as the services are driver-only.

 

[feline1]

I does seem a bit confusing for passengers - because there's certain instances were some law or byelaw applies and you get quoted something about "the train guard" (which appears to the be official legal title), but in practice during daily travel, that same person is also referred to (or calls themselves by) a different title.

 

[najaB]

I does seem a bit confusing for passengers - because there's certain instances were some law or byelaw applies and you get quoted something about "the train guard"...

I'd appreciate a link because everything I've seen makes reference to 'an authorised person'.

Edit: Out of curiosity, I checked - the word 'guard' doesn't appear at all in the published Railway Byelaws or in the NRCoC.

 

[MedwayValiant]

Not all people who check and/or sell tickets are guards. That much I knew.

But do all guards have revenue among their duties? Does any TOC work such that the guard only has despatch and safety duties, and tickets are a separate job done by someone else?

That's how it used to be on the London Underground, much as on-train ticket inspection has always been rather rare. Does any other railway work that way?

 

[Domh245]

Not all people who check and/or sell tickets are guards. That much I knew.

But do all guards have revenue among their duties? Does any TOC work such that the guard only has despatch and safety duties, and tickets are a separate job done by someone else?

That's how it used to be on the London Underground, much as on-train ticket inspection has always been rather rare. Does any other railway work that way?

SWT inner suburban services (red trains) have non commercial guards, who operate doors and fulfil other guard duties, but don't carry out any ticket checks not sell tickets

 

[455driver]

No, never.

On most trains, there is something called a 'Door Key Switch', essentially an 'on/off' control which energises the buttons on a particular panel so that they will function. This 'on/off' switch is turned with a key, which can generally be removed in either position - so the Guard can activate the panel, remove his keys and the buttons will still work. There is no need to leave keys hanging in the panel, and it is poor form to do so (I'm aware, though, that Southern Guards are very much in the habit of doing this, although generally they tend to be stood closeby in my experience). Certainly at my TOC if you left keys unattended during an assessment the Competence Managers are likely to remove them and leave you red faced!

SWT 455 (intermediate positions) lock the key in when the DKS is on and the key can only be removed when the DKS is turned off!

 

[gimmea50anyday]

NRCOC and railway byelaws we come under the general "officer of the railway" term, which basically means any authorised railway employee undertaking their duties.

Rulebook states guard. Over the years the ticket inspector and guard roles have merged into conductor for MU trains and senior conductor for intercity loco and stock trains. This has become somewhat muted in difference and meaning with sectorisation, DOO and privatisation and customer service glamour introduced the train manager title. The actual job role hasnt changed as such, just the job title.

Personally I prefer train manager. Conductor to me reminds me of the old dear clippies who used to work OK Travel's buses from Bishop Auckland to Newcastle, one of the last if not the last route in the NE to retain conductors dispensed with once Go Ahead bought OK Motor Services out.

If Im on go compare the meercats etc for insurance purposes I am a ticket inspector!

 

[tsr]

No, never.

On most trains, there is something called a 'Door Key Switch', essentially an 'on/off' control which energises the buttons on a particular panel so that they will function. This 'on/off' switch is turned with a key, which can generally be removed in either position - so the Guard can activate the panel, remove his keys and the buttons will still work. There is no need to leave keys hanging in the panel, and it is poor form to do so (I'm aware, though, that Southern Guards are very much in the habit of doing this, although generally they tend to be stood closeby in my experience). Certainly at my TOC if you left keys unattended during an assessment the Competence Managers are likely to remove them and leave you red faced!

On Southern stock, door key switches do not work quite like that...

You are not ever supposed to leave your keys "in the panel" unattended, that much is true. However, the door control panels on any Southern stock with which I am familiar MUST be activated by a key inserted in the DKS and turned to the "Active" position.

Chances are that the OP saw a 377 in use; in this case the vestibule door panel will not function without the DKS active (including handset/CCTV), except for the bell button being active a few seconds after interlock is achieved to facilitate "2" being given on the bell before the key is turned back to "Active" for the train to be observed leaving the platform. The reason for this is that the DKS must be turned off in order for the local door to be closed, as the DKS will break the overall door closing routine for the local door if it is "Active". However, you can only close the doors with the DKS turned to "Active".

In any case, on all Southern stock, conductors may only open doors (where applicable on 171/455 traction) and dispatch with a key inserted and turned to "Active" in the relevant panel throughout the process. Exact specifics and local door procedures vary on all stock.

 

[Kentish Paul]

Except, of course, in DOO areas where they are commonly called ticket inspectors. The difference being that they perform no dispatch duties.

Except on Southeastern High Speed where they are called On Board Managers (OBM) and also perform no dispatch duties.

 

[MedwayValiant]

Does that mean that Southeastern High Speed services are actually DOO, even though it is intended that they all run with an On Board Manager?

If the OBM's main duty is tickets, is a train permitted to run without one if none is available? Except east of Ashford, every station which is served by High Speed is gated, which means that there shouldn't be many passengers without tickets. While certainly desirable, a dedicated ticket inspector on every train might therefore be considered not utterly essential.