GWR operating short 'HSTGTi' sets (see diagrams section for workings)

[co-tr-paul]

Please remember, these sets are replacing UNITS and not an alternative for mainline express services..... !

 

[43096]

And exactly how many tables does a 150/1 have ?

Not enough!

 

[NSEFAN]

If you really want GTI to stand for something, you can pretend it's supposed to be Getting Timings Improved, given the whole point is to match sprinter timings.

 

[fgwrich]

Not enough!

But for something destined primarily for commuter use enough. More tables than a 150/1, only 2 less tables than a 153. The main route - Cardiff / Taunton hardly dictates the need for plenty of tables vs airline seating, and to be honest after spending just over a week down in Cornwall last week and using the HSTs a fair bit, the present layout works out just fine. And when there was a group of 3 or more, they were only doing fairly short hops - St Erth to Truro for example. Yes it's half an hour, but hardly in my opinion enough to result in the HST requiring more tables.

I think this is something we're going to have to agree to disagree on, and I for one am looking forward to the HST GTI.

Quick question aimed more at Paul, with these HST GTIs coming - will they be maintained at Laira or Long Rock?

 

[GW43125]

2, one in each cab

 

[Bletchleyite]

In any case, if the seating layout is found not to suit, it's a half day job with a spanner to sort it out.

 

[DarloRich]

Could somebody translate what GTi is please, as it is an acronym and I believe that acronyms are not meant to be used without first explaining what they mean?

Personally I find the term inappropriate. Is it actually GWR's intention to significantly accelerate the trains concerned? Presumably they could derate the engines to save on fuel consumption.

I really wouldn't lose any sleep over it..

This! Chill out. it really doesn't matter if it is an "approved name" or a silly name made up by someone in the depot as a laugh.I am sure it simply means that reduced in length and with lots of power the trains will perform like a souped up hot hatch. Personally i would be more interested in how they work and how they will be modified, but each to their own!

So the same sh*tty cram them in, ruin the Mark 3 layout as now? Not really what is wanted for the market they will be serving.

eh? they will be replacing a crappy units will be miles better passenger wise and will need to cram as many in as possible to cover costs.

Ok there will probably be a thousand good reasons why but have they ever looked at putting an extra, shortened & without cab HST power car on a set to improve acceleration. Similar to the common practice in the States of A & B units on early generation diesels. Or thinking about it like on the Long Thin Drag Hastings Diesel railtour

why would you do that? what could be the point?

 

[irish_rail]

But for something destined primarily for commuter use enough. More tables than a 150/1, only 2 less tables than a 153. The main route - Cardiff / Taunton hardly dictates the need for plenty of tables vs airline seating, and to be honest after spending just over a week down in Cornwall last week and using the HSTs a fair bit, the present layout works out just fine. And when there was a group of 3 or more, they were only doing fairly short hops - St Erth to Truro for example. Yes it's half an hour, but hardly in my opinion enough to result in the HST requiring more tables.

I think this is something we're going to have to agree to disagree on, and I for one am looking forward to the HST GTI.

Quick question aimed more at Paul, with these HST GTIs coming - will they be maintained at Laira or Long Rock?

Maintained at Laira and the Marsh apparently. 6 sets a night to Laira, 3 to the Marsh and 2 to Long Rock.

 

[AlterEgo]

Could somebody translate what GTi is please, as it is an acronym and I believe that acronyms are not meant to be used without first explaining what they mean?

LOL.

As if you've never heard of GTi before.

(LOL means Laughing Out Loud)

 

[co-tr-paul]

Maintained at Laira and the Marsh apparently. 6 sets a night to Laira, 3 to the Marsh and 2 to Long Rock.

At PZ, this is in addition to the 5 sets on mainline duties, currently HST but will be 802 eventually, along with the 2 XC Voyagers and 2 units for Falmouth and St Ives so an increase in work and a maintained workload at LA.

 

[MK Tom]

They were known as challenger sets IIRC

Perhaps I'm thinking of the VXC 158s. I'm sure the GTi name was being thrown around back then to refer to shortened HST services.

 

[Techniquest]

Ooh this might well be happening then, very interesting!

 

[221129]

4, if you count either side of the gangway as two separate tables.

What gangway? There isn't one on a 150/1...

 

[GW43125]

What gangway? There isn't one on a 150/1...

Oh...

 

[richw]

Perhaps I'm thinking of the VXC 158s. I'm sure the GTi name was being thrown around back then to refer to shortened HST services.

Like this it was a slang name from enthusiasts

 

[Bornin1980s]

GTi is from the motoring term used on the VW Golf. You have a normal Golf and the faster, sportier Golf GTi. The 2+4 and 2+5 HSTs will just be faster HSTs as less weight to lug around. I believe GTi actually stands for Grand Tourer injection. It's just a nickname the short sets have been given.

Sent from my XT1039 using Tapatalk

Weren't the HSTs fuel injected from the beginning?

Perhaps I'm thinking of the VXC 158s. I'm sure the GTi name was being thrown around back then to refer to shortened HST services.

I think the shortest HSTs were two coach sets substituting for 158s. They were known as 'Hornbys.'

 

[DelW]

Weren't the HSTs fuel injected from the beginning?

All diesel engines are, or at least all modern ones are (I'm not sure about some of the very early experiments). But then GT and (later) GTi were misnomers for many of the slightly warmed-up saloons and hatchbacks they were applied to, nothing remotely Grand or Touring-suitable about many of them...

 

[61653 HTAFC]

It's worth remembering that the VXC "Challenger" idea was never taken forward- it was a proposal to shorten sets to 2+5 (as opposed the then ICXC norm of 2+7). The plan was to also uprate the PCs allowing them to get close or equal to Voyager performance. There was even a rumour at the time that the "Challenger" sets would be reclassified as class 255 DEMUs, similar to how HST sets were classified from new.
The shortened sets that did run were, as mentioned above, a temporary fix to a shortage of 158s which were normally used on Manchester to Scotland services.

I think the shortest HSTs were two coach sets substituting for 158s. They were known as 'Hornbys.'

IIRC the 2+2 sets were unable to run at 125mph due to a lack of brake force, though as they were standing in for 158s they weren't required to do greater than 90mph anyway- not to mention the lack of any 125mph track between Manchester and Scotland back then. Even what there is now is EPS only in any case.

 

[455driver]

Much as 158s are OK, I can see this being a very popular move with passengers.

These trains are to replace 150 and 153s not 158s.

 

[455driver]

I for one am looking forward to the HST GTI.

So am I.

Quick question aimed more at Paul, with these HST GTIs coming - will they be maintained at Laira or Long Rock?

Long Rock will only be maintaining the sleepers, Laira will probably be looking after the GTI sets but some depot in Bristol is trying to grab the work.

 

[43096]

It's worth remembering that the VXC "Challenger" idea was never taken forward- it was a proposal to shorten sets to 2+5 (as opposed the then ICXC norm of 2+7). The plan was to also uprate the PCs allowing them to get close or equal to Voyager performance. There was even a rumour at the time that the "Challenger" sets would be reclassified as class 255 DEMUs, similar to how HST sets were classified from new.

Not sure what the plans were to upgrade the power cars were (suspect it was similar to the Project Rio mods), but a 2+5 HST is comparable to a 22x without any upgrading.

 

[455driver]

It's worth remembering that the VXC "Challenger" idea was never taken forward- it was a proposal to shorten sets to 2+5 (as opposed the then ICXC norm of 2+7). The plan was to also uprate the PCs allowing them to get close or equal to Voyager performance. There was even a rumour at the time that the "Challenger" sets would be reclassified as class 255 DEMUs, similar to how HST sets were classified from new.
The shortened sets that did run were, as mentioned above, a temporary fix to a shortage of 158s which were normally used on Manchester to Scotland services.



IIRC the 2+2 sets were unable to run at 125mph due to a lack of brake force, though as they were standing in for 158s they weren't required to do greater than 90mph anyway- not to mention the lack of any 125mph track between Manchester and Scotland back then. Even what there is now is EPS only in any case.

HSTs cannot be uprated because they are at the limit of the main alternator and traction motors which is why the MTUs are set at the same rating as the Valentas were.

A 2+2 set would be limited to 100mph max and have to run at 10mph below linespeed below that so they wouldnt be any quicker than a 158, in fact on quite a few lines they would actually be slower.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Not sure what the plans were to upgrade the power cars were (suspect it was similar to the Project Rio mods), but a 2+5 HST is comparable to a 22x without any upgrading.

I think it may well have been (in true Dickie Pickle-style) mainly putting fancy modern-looking new light-clusters and whatnot on them rather than any substantial upgrade- though power-door solutions available at the time may have added more weight than the current plans do.

 

[edwin_m]

And exactly how many tables does a 150/1 have ?

We're talking the West Country here. Not sure of the current situation but a decade or so back the local 150 fleet was refurbished with quite nice interiors including 2+2 seating and several tables.

 

[221129]

We're talking the West Country here. Not sure of the current situation but a decade or so back the local 150 fleet was refurbished with quite nice interiors including 2+2 seating and several tables.

Not on the 150/1s.... Clue, there aren't any 2+2 seating 150/1s in the West fleet. Nor any with any tables.

 

[richw]

We're talking the West Country here. Not sure of the current situation but a decade or so back the local 150 fleet was refurbished with quite nice interiors including 2+2 seating and several tables.

They're replacing the 150/1 sets which have 3+2 seating and no tables.

 

[Parallel]

Worth noting that 5 class 150 units that currently have 3 +2 seats will be retained in the West fleet. 150001, 150002, 150202, 150216 and half of 150209 and 150212(?) which may be formed into a hybrid unit and retrofitted with a DDA toilet module.

It makes sense or the short HSTs to run between Cornwall/Devon/Bristol/Cardiff. Anyone aware which services they will run? Is one Taunton terminator being extended to Cornwall every 2 hours?

A while ago on Twitter one of their team hinted that they may be running to Portsmouth. I like the HSTs but am glad this seems unlikely as this route is already plagued with delays (though power doors should speed up station dwell times)

 

[dubscottie]

It's worth remembering that the VXC "Challenger" idea was never taken forward- it was a proposal to shorten sets to 2+5 (as opposed the then ICXC norm of 2+7). The plan was to also uprate the PCs allowing them to get close or equal to Voyager performance. There was even a rumour at the time that the "Challenger" sets would be reclassified as class 255 DEMUs, similar to how HST sets were classified from new.
The shortened sets that did run were, as mentioned above, a temporary fix to a shortage of 158s which were normally used on Manchester to Scotland services.



IIRC the 2+2 sets were unable to run at 125mph due to a lack of brake force, though as they were standing in for 158s they weren't required to do greater than 90mph anyway- not to mention the lack of any 125mph track between Manchester and Scotland back then. Even what there is now is EPS only in any case.

The Challenger sets were for Paddington turns as they could be ATP fitted and kept on those duties and it would save the cost of fitting ATP to the voyagers.

XC pulled those services so the idea was dropped.

You are right about the max speed. There was and may still be a rule that a loco + 6 coaches or less must run at 10mph lower than the max speed of the loco.

 

[pompeyfan]

Worth noting that 5 class 150 units that currently have 3 +2 seats will be retained in the West fleet. 150001, 150002, 150202, 150216 and half of 150209 and 150212(?) which may be formed into a hybrid unit and retrofitted with a DDA toilet module.

It makes sense or the short HSTs to run between Cornwall/Devon/Bristol/Cardiff. Anyone aware which services they will run? Is one Taunton terminator being extended to Cornwall every 2 hours?

A while ago on Twitter one of their team hinted that they may be running to Portsmouth. I like the HSTs but am glad this seems unlikely as this route is already plagued with delays (though power doors should speed up station dwell times)

As has been said elsewhere, the class 43 is out of guage over the bridge at Burseldon, what they could be suggesting is a cascade of units resulting in longer trains.

 

[sprinterguy]

It's worth remembering that the VXC "Challenger" idea was never taken forward- it was a proposal to shorten sets to 2+5 (as opposed the then ICXC norm of 2+7). The plan was to also uprate the PCs allowing them to get close or equal to Voyager performance. There was even a rumour at the time that the "Challenger" sets would be reclassified as class 255 DEMUs, similar to how HST sets were classified from new.

The shortened sets that did run were, as mentioned above, a temporary fix to a shortage of 158s which were normally used on Manchester to Scotland services.

Shortened 2+5 sets did operate over the Virgin Crosscountry network during the last year of HST operation in order to match the timings of Voyagers which were coming into passenger service at the time. As mentioned, there was also no need to uprate the power cars in order to match Voyager performance.

However as you rightly state, the full "Challenger" upgrade and refurbishment never went ahead.