GWR Turbo cascade progress to Bristol region services

[Siemens Staines]

345s which take over the Paddington - Reading stoppers and thus fewer 387s are required by GWR.

Sorry. For some reason Jimm post didn't show up when I replied but did when my reply appeared

 

[387star]

Why do clasd 166s have a random area of full sized tables in standard class ? What's stranger is of the 2 plus 2 facing seats only two out of the four have the tables

 

[Kite159]

Why do clasd 166s have a random area of full sized tables in standard class ? What's stranger is of the 2 plus 2 facing seats only two out of the four have the tables

As they were designed for "outer suburban" work so gained little tables in the bays & a few medium sized tables.

Although I wouldn't call it 2+2 seating, more like "3-1"+2 seating with an wide aisle, like on 700, 357/3s.

 

[JonathanH]

Why do clasd 166s have a random area of full sized tables in standard class ? What's stranger is of the 2 plus 2 facing seats only two out of the four have the tables

They were built with the random area of full sized tables in the centre vehicle - they actually had tables at all five bays. There was also provision for a trolley buffet to be parked where the tip up seats are in that area - and a payphone in the recess by the door - you will also notice that the ceiling is lower.

I think the idea was using it like a buffet / coffee shop - ie tables for drinks and food rather than working.

Not sure on reasons for removal of the tables - maybe too many have been broken and they done have stock to refit them.

166s were built with trinket tables at bay seats - the triangular side tables came after a year or two in service when it was realised something more substantial was needed.

 

[Pete_uk]

I got on a two car turbo a short while ago and was surprised to find one side of one third of a carriage was for bikes and luggage.

 

[JonathanH]

I got on a two car turbo a short while ago and was surprised to find one side of one third of a carriage was for bikes and luggage.

It isn't a third, more like a fifth, although I agree that it does change the feel of that bit of the train. It replaces eight seats at one end of the train - effectively two window bays out of ten and a half

 

[Mitchell Hurd]

If that happens, what will replace the 166s which are currently replacing the 387s??

The Class 387's will be. Tfl taking over 2tph on the stopping services that run to and from London Paddington and Reading that terminate at Reading with Class 345's will free up 387's for strengthening.

 

[fgwrich]

It isn't a third, more like a fifth, although I agree that it does change the feel of that bit of the train. It replaces eight seats at one end of the train - effectively two window bays out of ten and a half

What I never understood with this cycle / luggage conversion is the way it was carried out. Why did they convert the standard class end to take the large luggage rack, then convert the first class end to standard class using the removed seats, when they could have just converted the former FC end from the start?

 

[Mitchell Hurd]

I have to praise the Turbos for giving around 25-30 years reliable service and the constant starting and stopping too! I'm only 26 but I remember seeing the Turbos in Network South East and Thames Trains livery.

I know some people don't like the Turbos replacing Class 158's but I can think of these reasons why they're a big improvement over 150's and 158's...

1. Over double the number of seats in a 166+165 combination (5-car Turbo) than a 3-car 158.

2. (Unless one is feeling ill) Pretty much no smoke from the exhaust when at idle (in other words less pollution at idle) which amazes me because some newer diesels like tend to clag a bit. That's why Perkins-powered 158's are better for Birmingham New Street.

3. The 3+2 seating is useful for groups of 6 in particular.

4. More windows to be opened - handy on a hot day!

5. I guess faster boarding.

6. The 2+2 seating in the former First Class sections give a very spacious feel.

7. Better reliability I sense.

Also if anyone felt like I did during the last week of August a few weeks ago then you'd rather a seat in a Turbo than stand on a 158.

 

[JonathanH]

What I never understood with this cycle / luggage conversion is the way it was carried out. Why did they convert the standard class end to take the large luggage rack, then convert the first class end to standard class using the removed seats, when they could have just converted the former FC end from the start?

I suspect that it wouldn't be a good idea to have heavily reduced seating capacity at both ends of the coach containing the universal toilet so they ended up with luggage and bikes in one coach and the universal toilet in the other.

 

[Kite159]

I have to praise the Turbos for giving around 25-30 years reliable service and the constant starting and stopping too! I'm only 26 but I remember seeing the Turbos in Network South East and Thames Trains livery.

I know some people don't like the Turbos replacing Class 158's but I can think of these reasons why they're a big improvement over 150's and 158's...

1. Over double the number of seats in a 166+165 combination (5-car Turbo) than a 3-car 158.

2. (Unless one is feeling ill) Pretty much no smoke from the exhaust when at idle (in other words less pollution at idle) which amazes me because some newer diesels like tend to clag a bit. That's why Perkins-powered 158's are better for Birmingham New Street.

3. The 3+2 seating is useful for groups of 6 in particular.

4. More windows to be opened - handy on a hot day!

5. I guess faster boarding.

6. The 2+2 seating in the former First Class sections give a very spacious feel.

7. Better reliability I sense.

Also if anyone felt like I did during the last week of August a few weeks ago then you'd rather a seat in a Turbo than stand on a 158.

Come back when you do a long journey from say Southampton to Newport, when you board at Southampton to find your seat reservation non-existence as the Turbos have no seat numbers (and no way to put the reservation label due to the seat back), being stuck in 3+2 seating wanting to do work on a laptop as those table seats are the first to go (and don't exist on the 165s), leaving the dreadful 3+2 seating. Next time that person will decide to drive as they can't do any work on the train (based on the number of times I've used the 158s with businesspeople doing work on laptops on the tables) so it loses one key benefit over the car.

Useful for the Bath commuters coming back from Bristol, but even then they would prefer to stand for the 10 minute trip to Bath than to sit in the middle seat. But for everybody else the outer suburban Turbos is a large step back from the regional 158s on the long distance routes.

Windows are locked closed on the 165s with has had the Air Cooling fitted, and the windows on a 166 when open due to the rubbish AC are not really a benefit to shout about.

 

[FenMan]

The Turbos are excellent workhorses for commuting-length journeys, I travel on them all the time. My last journey was today's 16:32 Reading to Gatwick, which was rammed on departure from Reading and, yes, people were sitting in the middle seats.

But a Cardiff/Bristol to Southampton or beyond journey? Maybe not. Turbos are very good at what they do well, but they aren't suited to inter-city routes where tables for laptops and so on become much more important.

 

[Dai Corner]

The Turbos are excellent workhorses for commuting-length journeys, I travel on them all the time. My last journey was today's 16:32 Reading to Gatwick, which was rammed on departure from Reading and, yes, people were sitting in the middle seats.

But a Cardiff/Bristol to Southampton or beyond journey? Maybe not. Turbos are very good at what they do well, but they aren't suited to inter-city routes where tables for laptops and so on become much more important.

That's the problem with Cardiff-Portsmouth, it serves no less than seven cities but also acts as a local commuter service.

 

[D2007wsm]

That's the problem with Cardiff-Portsmouth, it serves no less than seven cities but also acts as a local commuter service.

It is a shame Network Rail couldn’t have sorted out the gauging issues/obstructions with HSTs on the Portsmouth route and retained some more Mini HSTs for this route, with Short Swing Bogies of course. A composite vehicle could have been retained in these sets to introduce First Class. I’m sure many people who were travelling on these services would use it.

 

[JN114]

The purpose of putting the Turbos on the Portsmouth route is to resolve the chronic and severe overcrowding; and the poor performance the associated long dwell times causes.

No, they’re not the most salubrious of trains for long distance journeys; but as has been pointed out time and again, end to end passengers are very much in the minority on the route; and at some point we all have to face fact and accept the solution that deals with the main problem. When the DfT allow GW to refurbish the 16x internally there will be a massive improvement - the artists impressions of what is proposed have done the rounds numerous times on the internet; probably even earlier in this thread.

Mini HSTs would solve precisely none of the problems of using 158s is currently causing.

 

[deltic08]

The purpose of putting the Turbos on the Portsmouth route is to resolve the chronic and severe overcrowding.

No, they’re not the most salubrious of trains for long distance journeys; but as has been pointed out time and again, end to end passengers are very much in the minority on the route; and at some point we all have to face fact and accept the solution that deals with the main problem.

As a deterrent? No wonder there are few end to end passengers.
People are free to choose their best transport mode and not put up with uncomfortable and basic trains. Franchises are failing to recognise or provide bigtime.

 

[Parallel]

I have to praise the Turbos for giving around 25-30 years reliable service and the constant starting and stopping too! I'm only 26 but I remember seeing the Turbos in Network South East and Thames Trains livery.

I know some people don't like the Turbos replacing Class 158's but I can think of these reasons why they're a big improvement over 150's and 158's...

1. Over double the number of seats in a 166+165 combination (5-car Turbo) than a 3-car 158.

2. (Unless one is feeling ill) Pretty much no smoke from the exhaust when at idle (in other words less pollution at idle) which amazes me because some newer diesels like tend to clag a bit. That's why Perkins-powered 158's are better for Birmingham New Street.

3. The 3+2 seating is useful for groups of 6 in particular.

4. More windows to be opened - handy on a hot day!

5. I guess faster boarding.

6. The 2+2 seating in the former First Class sections give a very spacious feel.

7. Better reliability I sense.

Also if anyone felt like I did during the last week of August a few weeks ago then you'd rather a seat in a Turbo than stand on a 158.

From travelling on Turbos on this route I have found:

1. 5 cars better than 3 cars but not a great deal of services seem to operate at 5 cars, and those that do seem to separate at Westbury and you always get people needing to get into the front carriages

2. Haven’t noticed many exhaust issues on 166s, but there again I haven’t on 158s either. 150s on the other hand...

3. I’m not sure how many groups of 6 there are travelling together, I use the route every day and maybe Friday and Saturday nights, but most of the time it’s solo passengers, two or small groups of 3 or 4.

4. There are more windows that open, but in reality they don’t, there are commonly some which can’t be opened because the locks are damaged or the restrictors have snapped off.

5. Boarding is faster

6. The 2+2 sections are great but always full

7. Reliability still seems hit and miss. I think there are less overall severe delays but I’m not sure that’s down to just the stock.

So IMO boarding and capacity are the major advantages of Turbos, but comfort and the overall passenger experience on 158s are better.

In summer, I have no problem with using a 150 on the route. The seating is good and lots more opening windows!

 

[jimm]

As a deterrent? No wonder there are few end to end passengers.
People are free to choose their best transport mode and not put up with uncomfortable and basic trains. Franchises are failing to recognise or provide bigtime.

There have never been large end-to-end passenger flows on this route and there never will be - whatever the type of trains used.

As JN114 notes, GWR wants to update the interiors and knows the kinds of things they would like to do, but thus far the DfT has refused to sanction things like more 2+2 seats, due to its obsession with the overall number of seats on trains.

Hopefully the next GW direct award - assuming negotiations are concluded successfully - will allow something to be done, whether that is on both types, or just on the 166s, to finally make them better suited for the longer-distance services.

Much as the air conditioning on 166s was a 'do the best you can' job, retrofitted to the 165 design when Network South East took on the Cotswold Line and needed some extra rolling stock, so too was the interior, to try to make them a bit more acceptable than a 165 on journeys of 2hrs+ to Worcestershire, while still being able to squeeze in lots of commuters closer to London.

 

[pompeyfan]

Might not be end to end, but certainly there’s lots of separate long flows. Portsmouth - Salisbury/Westbury, Southampton - Bristol, and Salisbury - Cardiff. There are still through journeys as well that are longer than above.

 

[Nammer]

Would it be possible to change from air-con to air cooling on the 166s? I find the air cooling on the 165s far more comfortable in hot weather

 

[jimm]

Would it be possible to change from air-con to air cooling on the 166s? I find the air cooling on the 165s far more comfortable in hot weather

All kinds of things are possible if the DfT allows GWR and Angel Trains to do them - and when there is sufficient spare capacity in the fleet to allow sets to be taken out of service for extended periods to do work on them.

However, the Turbo fleet been running at full stretch for years. The accessible toilet installation project accounted for pretty much all the spare capacity there was for a long time, followed by the air cooling work on the 165s, pressure to send sets to Bristol to release 150/1s to other parts of the country and now covering for delayed 769s at Reading and the Class 387s that are being converted for Heathrow Express.

Fingers crossed that 2020 finally eases that pressure and that the direct award includes some investment to improve the interiors.

 

[swt_passenger]

Might not be end to end, but certainly there’s lots of separate long flows. Portsmouth - Salisbury/Westbury, Southampton - Bristol, and Salisbury - Cardiff. There are still through journeys as well that are longer than above.

It also suffers at the moment from being the only reasonably fast Portsmouth <> Southampton service, a flow which should logically be SWR’s responsibility. So the new Portsmouth <> Bournemouth service really ought to make a difference to loadings on their bit...

 

[387star]

It also suffers at the moment from being the only reasonably fast Portsmouth <> Southampton service, a flow which should logically be SWR’s responsibility. So the new Portsmouth <> Bournemouth service really ought to make a difference to loadings on their bit...

Does that start in December and will traction be 444?

 

[swt_passenger]

Does that start in December and will traction be 444?

No, as very few timetable changes can happen due to the 442 non-availability. I think it will be 450 operated, released by use of 442s and 444 elsewhere. The new service forms an all stations stopper west of Southampton so a 444 probably wouldn’t be appropriate.

 

[pompeyfan]

No, as very few timetable changes can happen due to the 442 non-availability. I think it will be 450 operated, released by use of 442s and 444 elsewhere. The new service forms an all stations stopper west of Southampton so a 444 probably wouldn’t be appropriate.

Is it into Bournemouth bay or Poole sidings? If it’s the first it can only be a 4 car 450

 

[swt_passenger]

Is it into Bournemouth bay or Poole sidings? If it’s the first it can only be a 4 car 450

Another good point; AIUI it’s definitely only as far as Bournemouth in service, but although I’m not sure if it actually has to be the bay, it seems highly probable.

 

[deltic08]

There have never been large end-to-end passenger flows on this route and there never will be - whatever the type of trains used.

Never is a very bold statement.

Might not be end to end, but certainly there’s lots of separate long flows. Portsmouth - Salisbury/Westbury, Southampton - Bristol, and Salisbury - Cardiff. There are still through journeys as well that are longer than above.

After the Severn Bridge was accidentally knocked down in 1960, journey's from Lydney to Bristol had to be via Severn Tunnel Junction. One of the later departures returning from Bristol TM was by changing at Stapleton Road into a Warship hauled + 10 or 11 coach Portsmouth-Cardiff that avoided Temple Meads to save running round. Many passengers for Bristol alighted here but many joined for STJ, Newport and Cardiff. The train was full and standing leaving Stapleton Road in far greater numbers than travel this route to-day.
Can we agree that it is gradual deterioration of comfort and perceived slowing of service with more stops that has caused the reduction in numbers travelling on this route?

 

[pompeyfan]

Another good point; AIUI it’s definitely only as far as Bournemouth in service, but although I’m not sure if it actually has to be the bay, it seems highly probable.

I suppose it could go into and out of the middle sidings, but the 2 roads already see 3 movements an hour, it would be tight to try and path in an extra movement, cross country are there for half an hour, and I believe the PD 444 is about the same.

 

[swt_passenger]

I suppose it could go into and out of the middle sidings, but the 2 roads already see 3 movements an hour, it would be tight to try and path in an extra movement, cross country are there for half an hour, and I believe the PD 444 is about the same.

Not sure what you mean by PD444 here? (Apologies cos we’re drifting from GWR Turbos really...)

 

[pompeyfan]

Not sure what you mean by PD444 here? (Apologies cos we’re drifting from GWR Turbos really...)

yes we’re drifting! But to clarify, I meant portion detach 444, the bit that splits off and sits in the middle sidings and then comes back out.