Gwynedd council don't want Mt Snowdon to be called Snowdon anymore

[yorksrob]

What is the concern, are you concerned you'll get lost halfway up the mountain because it says Yr Wyddfa? Tourists manage fine getting to Llandudno, Betws-y-coed, Penarth, Llanelli which have no formal Welsh name.

Uluru is still in the same place it's always been

I'm concerned because it appears to be an attempt excise a familiar place name from British culture with no justification.

 

[Ediswan]

The concern would surely be people going down the wrong roads to get to a car park at the base of Snowdon and causing congestion in small villages by getting lost.

The current preferred car park is at Pen-y-Pass. There are no signs to it. When you do arrive, there is no sign naming the mountain in either language. They really do not want people who cannot navigate walking up the mountain.

 

[GusB]

The concern would surely be people going down the wrong roads to get to a car park at the base of Snowdon and causing congestion in small villages by getting lost.

When did Welsh politicians remove an English name for Llandudno that was more commonly used than the Welsh name? If they didn't, there's no comparison. Tourists going to Llandudno usually go up Great Orme, that sounds like an English language name to me.

Why are you making such a big fuss over this when you are neither Welsh, nor live in Wales? Essentially it's not your country, therefore it's not really any of your business to dictate what a local, democratically elected body does in their own part of the world.

I applaud any efforts to revive the indigenous languages of our islands, especially as they have been deliberately suppressed in favour of English over the years. If this means insisting that landmarks are known by their proper names, so be it.

 

[TravelDream]

Yet English and Welsh are official languages for the United Kingdom and Wales is part of the United Kingdom.

The UK has no official language so why do you think this? You often see things like 'English is Britain's official language' or 'this country has free speech' when there is no legal basis for those comments*.
*Free speech is arguable through common law, but not legislation.

The Welsh Language Measure was going to make English and Welsh jointly the official languages of Wales, but the Welsh Parliament only had power over the Welsh language, and not English at the time, so couldn't. The structure of Welsh Law has changed completely since the Government of Wales Act 2017.


I could take either side on the argument to be honest. Even if the council do succeed, most people will continue to call it Snowdon anyway. Nobody is going to get lost if signs were changed and it would just be the same old bigoted argument that two languages 'confuses people'. Somehow millions of Brits manage fine in Spain, France, Thailand etc. etc. each year.

 

[peters]

Why are you making such a big fuss over this when you are neither Welsh, nor live in Wales? Essentially it's not your country, therefore it's not really any of your business to dictate what a local, democratically elected body does in their own part of the world.

I applaud any efforts to revive the indigenous languages of our islands, especially as they have been deliberately suppressed in favour of English over the years. If this means insisting that landmarks are known by their proper names, so be it.

What is wrong with the below road sign (on the A4086)? It has the indigenous language on it and it has that before English, the English is the name most people in the United Kingdom know the mountain by.

As for the I'm not Welsh nor live in Wales, actually one of my great grandparents was from Wales so I am partly Welsh. However, Welsh is not currently a recognised nationality, the Welsh are British the same as the English and Scots. In fact I'm sure Wales is less devolved than Scotland as I don't think they have their own tax raising powers so I think income tax collected in Wales goes into the same pot as income tax collected in England. An English person is just as entitled to an opinion on something in Wales as a Yorkshire person is entitled to an opinion on something in Lancashire. If there's a thread about a proposal in Yorkshire and people from Lancashire are discussing it would you tell them it's nothing to do with them?

The UK has no official language so why do you think this?

I was always under the impression the UK government had to provide services in both English and Welsh as they were official languages but others like Cornish and Scottish Gaelic are not. I've never heard anyone say the UK has no official language but I have heard people say that about the USA, which has areas of Spanish speakers born in the country who can't speak English as one example.

For instance, for signing into an online HMRC account you have the option of going to a Welsh version of the site: https://www.gov.uk/personal-tax-account

 

[westv]

I applaud any efforts to revive the indigenous languages of our islands, especially as they have been deliberately suppressed in favour of English over the years. If this means insisting that landmarks are known by their proper names, so be it.

You have already said most of the locals already speak Welsh so what revival problem is this solving?

 

[GusB]

You have already said most of the locals already speak Welsh so what revival problem is this solving?

I didn't say that. You'll have to read back through the thread to see who did.

What is wrong with the below road sign (on the A4086)? It has the indigenous language on it and it has that before English, the English is the name most people in the United Kingdom know the mountain by.

There's nothing wrong with the road sign. I have no objections to the signs being in both languages, but I would not object to them being solely in Welsh either. Whether or not you think Welsh is not a recognised nationality is neither here nor there; there will be quite a few Welsh people who would strongly disagree with you.

As for the I'm not Welsh nor live in Wales, actually one of my great grandparents was from Wales so I am partly Welsh. However, Welsh is not currently a recognised nationality, the Welsh are British the same as the English and Scots.

Whether or not you think Welsh is not a recognised nationality is neither here nor there; there will be quite a few Welsh people who would strongly disagree with you.

In fact I'm sure Wales is less devolved than Scotland as I don't think they have their own tax raising powers so I think income tax collected in Wales goes into the same pot as income tax collected in England. An English person is just as entitled to an opinion on something in Wales as a Yorkshire person is entitled to an opinion on something in Lancashire. If there's a thread about a proposal in Yorkshire and people from Lancashire are discussing it would you tell them it's nothing to do with them?

Ah, I think we've finally got to the bottom of your complaint: "We're paying for it, so we should have a say."

 

[TravelDream]

I was always under the impression the UK government had to provide services in both English and Welsh as they were official languages but others like Cornish and Scottish Gaelic are not. I've never heard anyone say the UK has no official language but I have heard people say that about the USA, which has areas of Spanish speakers born in the country who can't speak English as one example.

For instance, for signing into an online HMRC account you have the option of going to a Welsh version of the site: https://www.gov.uk/personal-tax-account

The US is another country that doesn't have an official language. There's a myth it was nearly German or Dutch or whatever, but the constitution doesn't name an official language. A number of states do (and usually that's token anti-immigrant rather than anything of substance), but not nationally.

The Welsh Language Act(s) require the government and government departments (like HMRC) to provide services in Welsh. No such Acts require that of other languages. The use of English is de facto rather than de jure.


Oh, and there is a sperate Welsh tax system and the Welsh Senedd has the power to raise and lower income tax, but never had.

 

[peters]

There's nothing wrong with the road sign. I have no objections to the signs being in both languages, but I would not object to them being solely in Welsh either. Whether or not you think Welsh is not a recognised nationality is neither here nor there; there will be quite a few Welsh people who would strongly disagree with you.

Whether or not you think Welsh is not a recognised nationality is neither here nor there; there will be quite a few Welsh people who would strongly disagree with you.

Ah, I think we've finally got to the bottom of your complaint: "We're paying for it, so we should have a say."

A few Welsh people have posted their opinion and in the case of one I'm yet to see a post agreeing with him. You're just posting things like Mount Blanc doesn't have an English name, saying what the mountain is called is none of my business and jumping to conclusions because I pointed out Welsh is not a nationality, that's not my opinion it's a fact. There was a debate on national identity in the census thread, do we need to have the same debate again?

Have you ever been up Snowdon yourself? If you have how did you get there?

No such Acts require that of other languages. The use of English is de facto rather than de jure.

Encyclopedia Britannia does say English is an official language in the UK. I prefer to use sources like that rather than looking through UK law when I'm not a legal expert.

 

[krus_aragon]

Penarth is actually a Welsh name (Head of a Bear) and this is how it is known universally, but the Wetherspoons in the town is named "The Bear's Head", the English translation. The name originated through the Headland resembling the shape of a Bear's Head when approaching from the sea.+

I'm informed that it's actually a contraction of " pen" and "garth" , where a garth is a promontory, a sticking-out bit of land. (I previously thought its derivation was as you said. And we won't let this get in the way of a good pub name!)

Other examples of the word include the Garth area of Bangor, where the pier extends from, and of course Gogarth (the Great Orme). The prefix "go-" is a superlative here, i.e. the Gogarth is a great big promontory!

I'm concerned because it appears to be an attempt excise a familiar place name from British culture with no justification.

For context, others are worried at Welsh placenames disappearing or being excised by new placenames. Not settlements, by and large, but certainly landscape features (hills, valleys, bays) and names of old farms and houses. I wouldn't be surprised if the councillor that made the above request to the National Park did so with this very issue in mind.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Tourists going to Llandudno usually go up Great Orme, that sounds like an English language name to me.

'Orme' is derived from Old Norse isn't it? Means snake or serpent, I believe.

'Snowdon' itself has Saxon/Old English origins. Means Snow Dune / Snaw Dun (or Snow Hill).

 

[yorksrob]

For context, others are worried at Welsh placenames disappearing or being excised by new placenames. Not settlements, by and large, but certainly landscape features (hills, valleys, bays) and names of old farms and houses. I wouldn't be surprised if the councillor that made the above request to the National Park did so with this very issue in mind.

That is a fair point, and Welsh place names are as much an important part of the landscape as English ones. We have Pen-Y-Ghent up here, which certainly comes from the same linguistic family as Welsh and is indelibly part of the landscape.

I don't agree with the Councillor's way of highlighting the issue though.

 

[Ediswan]

I don't agree with the Councillor's way of highlighting the issue though.

It is election season.

It is also a case of 'be careful what you wish for'. If the only name becomes Yr Wyddfa, many English-only speakers will mangle the pronunciation. Llangollen often gets mangled. I have noted news reporters carefully avoiding having to say "Machynlleth".

 

[PHILIPE]

I'm informed that it's actually a contraction of " pen" and "garth" , where a garth is a promontory, a sticking-out bit of land. (I previously thought its derivation was as you said. And we won't let this get in the way of a good pub name!)

Other examples of the word include the Garth area of Bangor, where the pier extends from, and of course Gogarth (the Great Orme). The prefix "go-" is a superlative here, i.e. the Gogarth is a great big promontory!


For context, others are worried at Welsh placenames disappearing or being excised by new placenames. Not settlements, by and large, but certainly landscape features (hills, valleys, bays) and names of old farms and houses. I wouldn't be surprised if the councillor that made the above request to the National Park did so with this very issue in mind.

Whereas "Arth" translated to Welsh means "Bear" (animal) and can also be "Garth" mutated.

 

[LSWR Cavalier]

It ibe careful what you wish for'. If the only name becomes Yr Wyddfa, many English-only speakers will mangle the pronunciation. Llangollen often gets mangled. I have noted news reporters carefully avoiding having to say "Machynlleth".

'The town between Aberystwyth and Dolgellau'? The locals often just say 'Mach'. I think the names are easy enough to pronounce correctly.

 

[AlterEgo]

I'm concerned because it appears to be an attempt excise a familiar place name from British culture with no justification.

You should hear about the history of the English language in Wales!

Welsh is an indigenous language to Britain and a fundamental part of our culture as a country, and I am personally very comfortable with it being widespread in Gwynedd.

 

[yorksrob]

You should hear about the history of the English language in Wales!

Welsh is an indigenous language to Britain and a fundamental part of our culture as a country, and I am personally very comfortable with it being widespread in Gwynedd.

And where did I say I wasn't ?

 

[AlterEgo]

And where did I say I wasn't ?

It’s not excising a popular place name whatsoever. You’ll still be allowed to call it Snowdon, and all that is being proposed is that the marketing and “official” name be changed from one of the indigenous languages of Britain to another.

 

[yorksrob]

It’s not excising a popular place name whatsoever. You’ll still be allowed to call it Snowdon, and all that is being proposed is that the marketing and “official” name be changed from one of the indigenous languages of Britain to another.

And whats wrong with having both, as now ?

 

[AlterEgo]

And whats wrong with having both, as now ?

Nothing. And there’s nothing wrong with the proposal either. Official place names change all the time.

 

[westv]

Nothing. And there’s nothing wrong with the proposal either. Official place names change all the time.

But the name isn't changing. The proposal is to exclude a name.

 

[GusB]

But the name isn't changing. The proposal is to exclude a name.

What exactly is the issue you have with the English name being excluded? Is it because, god forbid, that you might actually have to learn to pronounce a name in another language instead of having everything in English?

 

[yorksrob]

Nothing. And there’s nothing wrong with the proposal either. Official place names change all the time.

I would say that there is, because I like the name that's being abandoned.

What exactly is the issue you have with the English name being excluded? Is it because, god forbid, that you might actually have to learn to pronounce a name in another language instead of having everything in English?

I'm personally quite happy to learn the pronounciation of Yr Wyddfa. My objection to the proposal is that the English name has cultural value as well.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

What exactly is the issue you have with the English name being excluded? Is it because, god forbid, that you might actually have to learn to pronounce a name in another language instead of having everything in English?

How would you feel if it was the other way round, and people in a majority-English-speaking part of Wales were proposing to drop the Welsh name for a place altogether and only use the English name? Would you still be defending the proposals in this way?

 

[AlterEgo]

How would you feel if it was the other way round, and people in a majority-English-speaking part of Wales were proposing to drop the Welsh name for a place altogether and only use the English name? Would you still be defending the proposals in this way?

Is English a threatened language?

I think a lot of the objections are because this is Wales. Place names change over time. I like the name Madras over Chennai, Queenstown over Cobh, and Macedonia was always a punchier name than North Macedonia.

But I suppose we’d say those name changes are a matter for the people that live there. And what the official name is won’t affect what you personally are allowed to use. I’ve relatives that never ever say “Northern Ireland”, for example.

The counter to this is saying “ah but Wales is in the UK, where I live”, but to be honest, if you feel strongly about that, why not just learn the Welsh pronunciation? As I keep saying, it’s a perfectly cromulent language which is indigenous to our country and not foreign in the slightest.

 

[birchesgreen]

Will the Earl of Snowdon also change name?

 

[tomwills98]

You have already said most of the locals already speak Welsh so what revival problem is this solving?

In the BBC article in the bottom paragraphs, tourists and second home owners are renaming Welsh place and house names with English ones. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-56913993

Mr Roberts, who represents Corris Mawddwy in Gwynedd, said: "In this area, for example Bwlch y Groes has become Hellfire Pass, Dol Hir is known as Longmeadow and this is happening in many areas."

A language dies only if we let it, it survives if we speak it, it thrives if we use it. We cannot let our heritage and culture die away because some are too ignorant to learn how to pronounce a few different words

Edit: forgot BBC link

 

[daodao]

It is election season.

It is also a case of 'be careful what you wish for'. If the only name becomes Yr Wyddfa, many English-only speakers will mangle the pronunciation. Llangollen often gets mangled. I have noted news reporters carefully avoiding having to say "Machynlleth".

While it is understandable for ordinary ignorant foreign visitors to mangle local languages, it is very irritating to hear mispronunciations in the media, such as Capel-i-Ffin (instead of Capel-y-Ffin) and Pen-i-Ffan (instead of Pen-y-Fan) on Radio 4's Open Country programme this morning, by a recent immigrant (not visitor) to Wales from Bristol.

 

[LSWR Cavalier]

Bwlch y Groes is of course Pass of the Cross.

 

[Merle Haggard]

While it is understandable for ordinary ignorant foreign visitors to mangle local languages, it is very irritating to hear mispronunciations in the media, such as Capel-i-Ffin (instead of Capel-y-Ffin) and Pen-i-Ffan (instead of Pen-y-Fan) on Radio 4's Open Country programme this morning, by a recent immigrant (not visitor) to Wales from Bristol.

Not just Welsh names!

Towcester, Haselbech, Bozeat, Cogenhoe, Rushden, Rushton and Duston are routinely mis-pronounced by visitors - and BBC Look East - who were unlucky enough not to be born in Northamptonshire.