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Help please nr trying to prosecute

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student99

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heres the story:

i got on a TRANSPENNINE TRAIN from preston to man picadilly without a ticket and couldnt purchase on the train.

as i got off i qeued at the ticket line and got a bolton ticket instinctively as that is where i normally travel from. i got pulled aside and told i couldnt have got on from bolton as it was manned. i then told him id got on at preston and got my details taken and was told to expect a letter from NORTHERN RAIL.

is that possible that nr can prosecute me when i travelled on a transpennine train?
 
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bluenoxid

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Reported to the mods for removal and relocation. Student99, it will be moved to the Fares forum.
 

student99

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Can you explain why? Why would nr benefit from a mistake and unpai fare for transpennine?
 

oversteer

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It never ceases to amaze me how many people forget the station they have travelled from ...
 

bluenoxid

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I forget the day of the week all of the time

Are you AMAZED??? <D

The other question to ask is who decides the fare. You may have three operators on a train route but only one decides the fare. The other operators can have operator only tickets.
 

Ferret

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It never ceases to amaze me how many people forget the station they have travelled from ...

Yes - top advice to anyone thinking that's even remotely likely to be accepted as an excuse: don't. Just don't - everyone from Ticket Inspectors to Magistrates have heard it, and I can't imagine it ever working.
 
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Can you explain why? Why would nr benefit from a mistake and unpai fare for transpennine?

Arrangements for revenue protection can be subcontracted. Northern Rail looks after revenue at Manchester Picadilly, on behalf of all the operators and network rail. It is not really relevant which company your train was with. It is in the interests of all operators to enforce revenue protection.
 

bnm

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Equally importantly, why didn't you pay at Preston? A fully staffed station which also has numerous ticket machines.
 

pemma

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Can you explain why? Why would nr benefit from a mistake and unpai fare for transpennine?

The operators who use platform 13 at Manchester Piccadilly (where you have alighted) are Northern, TransPennine, East Midlands Trains and Arriva Trains Wales. Do you think it would be viable for all four operators to have inspectors there? I don't.

Did you see a ticket inspector on the TPE train your travelled on?
 

cuccir

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Can you explain why? Why would nr benefit from a mistake and unpai fare for transpennine?

To actually answer the question: yes, as the ticket revenue is split between all of the companies that you could have used for a journey, not just those that you did use.

Wait for the letter to come: you'll then find out what action they intend to take. These letters can take a few months to arrive. As your story is fairly weak - even if you did genuinely forget the station that you used (which is a common claim), this still isn't likely to be considered a good enough reason not to prosecute - you'll not get too much sympathy.
 

student99

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Jcollins no i did not

Its not an excuse i know its wrong it was an honest mistake .. Every other time i have travelled it has been from bolton this was my first time from preston

NR doesnt do penalty fares but transpennine do so what should i be expecting

I know im in the wrong and will be punished but is there any way to avoid a court appearance .. Never been in trouble with the law before and its a first time offence
 

cuccir

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NR doesnt do penalty fares but transpennine do so what should i be expecting

I know im in the wrong and will be punished but is there any way to avoid a court appearance .. Never been in trouble with the law before and its a first time offence

Neither Nothern Rail nor Transpennine do penalty fares.

This summary by MerseyRail applies pretty much equally to Northern Rail and Transpennine and will give you an idea of what to expect. The only difference is that Northern Rail don't run the 'reprimand/administrative penalty' policy that Merseyrail do - they're more likely to jump straight to prosecution:

MERSEYRAIL PROSECUTIONS FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS:

Q: I was stopped and questioned by an enforcement officer/ticket inspector, what happens next?
A: If you were approached by an enforcement officer/ticket inspector and cautioned under the Police and Criminal evidence act 1984 for breaking a railway Byelaw or the Railway Regulations act 1889 section 5. The enforcement officer/ticket inspector will use his note book during the interview, recording details obtained from you on the day in question. He/she will then submit a report to the prosecutions department at Merseyrail. Here it will be read and a decision made based on the facts reported, whether a person will be forwarded for prosecution or not. If a decision is made to prosecute, a letter will be despatched showing the date the alleged offence was committed and informing you of what you need to do next.

This next section applies to Merseyrail only
Q: What are my options?
A: If you receive a letter from our prosecutions department claiming that an offence has been committed, you may be offered a reprimand along with an administrative penalty. Ranging from £50.00 to £75.00 dependent on whether a Byelaw or a Railway Regulation Act has been contravened. If we find that you have previously committed the same offence, the option of a reprimand will not be offered a summons to court will be issued automatically.
The above section applies to Merseyrail only

Q: How do I pay?
A: You can pay the reprimand by Debit or Credit card over the phone (the telephone number will be provided within the letter sent to you) or by postal order. Cash will not be accepted, all postal orders are to be made payable to Merseyrail Electrics 2002 ltd.

Q:Why have I received a summons to attend court?
A: You have received a summons to attend court because you have either failed to pay the administrative penalty or you have previous convictions for the same offence.

Q: What do I do next?
A: If you fail to pay the administrative penalty before your court date, your case will go through the prosecutions process, if found guilty you could face a fine of up to a £1000, and additional court costs. You have the right to attend court on the day your case is heard and to plead your case to the Magistrates. If you fail to attend or to give the court notification, you may be found guilty in your absence.

Q:Will I get a criminal record?
A: If found guilty of a Byelaw offence, it may appear on an enhanced CRB CHECK but if you are found guilty of a Railway regulation act 1889 section 5 offence, then this would show up on any CRB CHECK. If you pay the administrative penalty, this will enable us to withdraw your case from court, and consequently you will have no CRB RECORD.

Q: Can I appeal?
A: If you feel you have grounds in which to lodge an appeal, you can plead your case to the Magistrates on the day you attend the court, however you run the risk of being found guilty and consequently may face a heavier fine. If you do not wish for your case to reach the court but would still wish to appeal, we would recommend that you pay the administrative penalty offered to you and then contact the prosecutions department via letter or E-Mail stating your grounds for the appeal. The matter will be investigated thoroughly, and if you have sufficient grounds are found for your appeal, a full refund will be issued to you.

If you have any questions or queries that have not been answered above, please click on the link below and submit your query. we will respond to your enquiry.
 
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Ferret

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NR doesnt do penalty fares but transpennine do so what should i be expecting

I know im in the wrong and will be punished but is there any way to avoid a court appearance .. Never been in trouble with the law before and its a first time offence

Well, it sounds to me like a very simple Regulation of Railways Act s.5 prosecution - you demonstrated intent to avoid your fare by saying you travelled from Bolton when you'd travelled from Preston. It seems you have admitted the offence to the inspector, possibly under caution so there is little prospect of a successful defence in Court. An RoR Act Prosecution carries with it a criminal record if/when you are found guilty.

You could attempt to settle out of Court, but you'll have to make a substantial offer to the rail company to make this worth their while - from what I can see, this really is an open and shut case if it reaches Court. Also bear in mind that Northern do not have to settle out of Court with you - given the ease with which you could be found guilty, they may decide the appropriate action is to prosecute.
 

GB

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How can anyone "forget" the station they traveled from? Particularly when said stations are some 20 odd miles apart and presumably look completely different?
 

student99

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So theres absolutely nothing i can do? What would a substantial offer be? I really want to keep this out of court.

If it goes to court an im found guilty what would happen?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
They are completely different.. As i said it was an honest mistake when she asked where i wanted the ticket from i instinctively said bolton i didnt think and had no intention to avoid the fare coz if i did i wouldve obv said somewhere even closer obv.. It was a lapse of concentration and a stupid mistake
 

Tibbs

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How can anyone "forget" the station they traveled from? Particularly when said stations are some 20 odd miles apart and presumably look completely different?

I'm sure a neurologist would be able to tell you why, but last week I forgot the name of a friend of mine. I couldn't have told you her name if you put a gun to my head. I've known her for 3 years and see her almost every week. This isn't an isolated incident for me, some of us just aren't blessed with a good memory. Collecting tickets from machines is another bugbear of mine. I go through WFJ twice a day and it still takes me ages to remember to pick up any tickets I've ordered.

Brains work in strange (and unknown) ways, especially when in stressful situations, such as being questioned by an authority figure. Have you never seen those Derren Brown programmes where the brain totally misses the Gorilla that walks through almost every shot?
 

Ferret

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If it goes to court an im found guilty what would happen?

It depends what they prosecute you for. The offence I described earlier is the more serious one - that carries a larger fine and a criminal record too.

They could also go for a Byelaw 18 prosecution. Here, the train company would not need to prove intent to avoid the fare, just that you travelled without a ticket. I'd imagine that carries a slightly lower fine than an RoR Act prosecution, although even still Byelaw 18 offences seem to end up with a £400 fine, once Court costs and victim surcharges are taken into account. And of course, you still have to pay the train company the fare owed!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Brains work in strange (and unknown) ways, especially when in stressful situations, such as being questioned by an authority figure

I fail to see what is stressful about a simple question of 'where did you travel from?' Come off it....
 

student99

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It seriously was an honest mistake.. Stupid mistake yes but stupid .. I cooperated fully with the inspector .. Id rather settle out of court .. Is there nothin that can be done? Anyone else ever get taken to court on this? Anyone ever been in this situation and can share their experience

Ive read a few posts but they never say how it ended
 

Ferret

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Well, you can *try* to settle out of Court. Northern may well accept it - but they may not. Simply it's at their discretion; ultimately they have evidence to prosecute you so they hold all the Ace cards.

Some people do come back here to tell us that their out of court settlement offer was accepted, some don't. We did hear of one that was rejected - that remains the only one to date. I don't think you'd lose anything by at least offering to settle, just be prepared to apologise profusely and part with a large sum of cash.
 

snail

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Did you see a ticket inspector on the TPE train your travelled on?
In my experience of TPE trains on that route (which used to be daily), it's very unusual not to see a conductor or RPI going through the train after Preston or Chorley, though it is possible they weren't able to do a full pass of the train. It doesn't often happen after Bolton as trains tend to get very busy.

Unfortunately, mistakes that break the law do tend to get punished.
 

student99

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Ive already emailed there prosecutions dept telling them ehat happened and offerring to settle a reasonable sum.. If they agree to settle what financial damage can i expect.. Not using a sympathy card but as a student 900 quid load for three months how much should i be looking to put aside?

On the other hand if they refuse to settle it is that it? Or is there anything else i could do?
 

transportphoto

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On the other hand if they refuse to settle it is that it? Or is there anything else i could do?
I'm afraid, if they decide they want to take you to court, you'll have to battle it out in court and come to some sort of agreement with the Magistrate on a payment plan etc.

TP
 

Tibbs

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I fail to see what is stressful about a simple question of 'where did you travel from?' Come off it....

It's not necessarily what is asked, but who is doing the asking. Being quizzed by an RPI can be very stressful.

I interview graduates sometimes as part of my job and I've seen people just fold up and turn into gibbering wrecks as soon as they step into the interview room When out in the reception area within a group of people they're bright and articulate, get them in a room sat in front of a panel of 3 and they struggle to remember their own names! (I did actually have a girl correct herself when I asked her name...)

My girlfriend at college was a great driver when she was out with her dad or the instructor but went all to pieces when an examiner stepped into the car.

I struggle talking to people in authority. I had a dispute with an RPI at Shepherd's Bush once. I managed it ok, but I was shaking like a leaf for an hour aftewards. Even though she was forceful, she was never aggressive or angry, but towards the end I could feel the tears welling up even though I knew I'd done nothing wrong. Not something I really want to admit as a rufty tufty ex-rugby player, but hopefully it gives you some insight (and some empathy perhaps?) into the strange and often illogical reactions people have.
 
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student99

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Tibbs thats definitely how i felt a bit under duress

How much are the fines normally

Would they have leniency for a first time offence an the fact im a full time student without employment
 

DarloRich

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@Student99 - you need to face up to the fact, very quickly, that you may well end up with a criminal record because of this.

Seek legal advice ASAP.
 

Gathursty

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A quick question. What if OP said Salwick or Kents Bank or somewhere further away from their departure station to their intended destination. Obviously it'd be equally as silly, price wise but would OP cover themselves legally?
 

student99

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What kind of reply should i give when i give my version of events .. Just stick to facts and apologise or try a sympathy tact?
 
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