High Speed Two (HS2) discussion

[brianthegiant]

im all for HS2 however i do fear that once construction has started, it shall stop purely for the reason of environmentalists.....
look at evergreen phase 3, £120m investment which is now a sitting duck due to a bats nesting ground...
pssh.

erm well, its true that the 'dark greens' are more or less anti HS2 (e.g. green party & friends of the earth).

However I would say there are also more pragmatic greens who like me think that new lines are essential if we're to avoid more runways & roads, and that rail needs to be able to be competitive with road & air on door-door journey times.

Also in this context I think we need to make a distinction between environmentalism and conservationism. Conservation is more about conserving specific species, like bats for example. Where as I would say that environmentalism is more about seeing the bigger picture. For example how many species would be made extinct if we dont reduce CO2 emissions so we get runaway climate change.
see:
www.unep.org/publications/ebooks/emissionsgapreport/

 

[stockport1]

erm well, its true that the 'dark greens' are more or less anti HS2 (e.g. green party & friends of the earth).

However I would say there are also more pragmatic greens who like me think that new lines are essential if we're to avoid more runways & roads, and that rail needs to be able to be competitive with road & air on door-door journey times.

Also in this context I think we need to make a distinction between environmentalism and conservationism. Conservation is more about conserving specific species, like bats for example. Where as I would say that environmentalism is more about seeing the bigger picture. For example how many species would be made extinct if we dont reduce CO2 emissions so we get runaway climate change.
see:
www.unep.org/publications/ebooks/emissionsgapreport/

I dont mind the greenies if they are outside BP refineries / nuclear plants / whale hunting/ nuclear weapons bases etc.

what gets my goat with them is when I see them spending so much energy on some earth being moved? I mean the romans were building roads ffs.

right now they should have nuclear power in their sights what with fukishima and this iodine leak in europe (hungary i think i heard mentioned?)

that they are pushing global carbon taxes for the bankers so hard is laughable...esp after ManMade global warming theory just keeps on falling down at every turn.

 

[tbtc]

I dont mind the greenies if they are outside BP refineries / nuclear plants / whale hunting/ nuclear weapons bases etc.

what gets my goat with them is when I see them spending so much energy on some earth being moved? I mean the romans were building roads ffs.

Imagine if the Romans had built Railways - they'd have been brilliantly straight

 

[HSTEd]

About as straight at the 96ts?

I never did get the tree huggers congregating outside of nuclear plant coolant towers, I always thought it was steam coming from the coolant towers... or am i missing something?

They were congregating out side of nuclear plant coolant towers because nuclear power is evil and so on.
They just happen to be the most visible part of a nuclear plant, even though not one operating British nuclear power station has them, and only two ever did (Chapelcross and Calder Hall)

 

[JohnCarlson]

There is talk of the HS2 station being built north of the existing station on the present car park and if further expansion of Leeds City is required then the old Leeds central station site could be used.

I wonder if you could "double deck" Leeds central station and put the HS2 platforms above the existing ones?

 

[Nym]

Well, what I'd be looking at doing if it was to be housed inside Leeds City station would be providing some longer terminating platforms to the West in the car park etc, and running them into the platforms that are currently formed up with centre roads. I beleive this to be 11 and 12 but I stand to be corrected, anyway, re guage these two platforms and loose the centre road, there we have our two HS line platforms.

 

[MK Tom]

An argument often used to support HS2 around these parts is that it will result in improvements to the WCML services - which I understand insofar as it'll free up space - but does that not mean we will suffer significantly longer journey times and reduced frequencies on long-distance services? Especially those connecting us to the north...

 

[WatcherZero]

Longer journey times but increased frequencies at smaller stations.

 

[MK Tom]

How much longer though? HS2 as far as I can see will leave one of the UK's fastest growing urban centres bypassed and cut off from the high speed network... which 30 or 40 years down the line will end up having to be paid for with a very expensive branch or loop of some kind. It's not really any use having an increased frequency when the journey times are increased to the point it no longer is competitive with other modes. I really want to support HS2 because I think Britain needs a high speed network but it's almost like the project is intended to stifle the MK/Northampton/Bedford/Aylesbury growth area by isolating it from the rest of the country.

 

[JohnCarlson]

Well, what I'd be looking at doing if it was to be housed inside Leeds City station would be providing some longer terminating platforms to the West in the car park etc, and running them into the platforms that are currently formed up with centre roads. I beleive this to be 11 and 12 but I stand to be corrected, anyway, re guage these two platforms and loose the centre road, there we have our two HS line platforms.

Not an expert on this but I think the car park is already booked to be turned into platforms for terminating local services. Don't forget that there are calls to double the number of trains to Harrogate and have two extra TPEs terminating here. Not sure what will happen but there are already suggestions for the next TPE/Northern franchise to be one in which the holder develops services not just maintains status quo.


Again if the HS2 trains are 400m not sure how easy they will get in the car park.

John

 

[Nym]

Car park is just long enough...

Running them into the centre roaded platforms as I can see I recon is the best option at the moment, you'd loose two through platforms in re-gauging, or you could use the two southernmost, but it means a long way to walk.

 

[JohnCarlson]

Car park is just long enough...

Running them into the centre roaded platforms as I can see I recon is the best option at the moment, you'd loose two through platforms in re-gauging, or you could use the two southernmost, but it means a long way to walk.

I see what you mean about the car park. While I agree that you could loose two platforms and get them in I think the problem might be that they just cant afford to loose two platforms.

We don't know what else is going to happen. Wikipedia seems to think passenger numbers are going to increase by 63 percent in the next twenty years or so. Not sure if this includes HS2.

I do use the station about twenty times a year and when I am there it always seems to be full. Maybe a big rebuild is needed for HS2. There does seem to be some land used by industrial units to the south west but the station itself is largely surrounded by high value business developments which would be costly to knock down. The platform roof always seems gloomy. My suggestion would be to put in some extra platforms by building over some of the existing platforms. If the HS2 trains are to run onto Newcastle etc they would need to be through platforms. However I accept that this would be problematical:grin:

With Leeds i suspect we are trying to get a gallon into a pint pot.

John
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
http://www.theconstructionindex.co....work-rail-seeks-partner-for-leeds-development

 

[Nym]

Yeah, at least in Manchester it's obvious...

Barring Street Industrial Area, knitted in with Mayfeild Station...

 

[deltic]

I wonder if you could "double deck" Leeds central station and put the HS2 platforms above the existing ones?

That is also a possibility given that HS2 will be at high level due to the need to cross existing rail viaducts - given disruption of building over a working railway it is possible that new classic platforms could be built north of existing platform with HS2 platforms above those.

 

[Nym]

That is the best idea I've seen so far deltic, design them as double deck from the start and shove 4 HS2 platforms above the new domestics, and connect to some through lines for CC through services further back out?

 

[HSTEd]

Longer journey times but increased frequencies at smaller stations.

Yes, but atleast in the case of the ECML these journey times are likely to be increased sufficiently to lead to greater over all journey times, even if the waiting time is reduced.

Intercity grade service is already available at every "smaller station" between Peterborough and York, making all trains stop at all stations will make the railway less popular and drive people to drive places, it will also drive the long distance commuters at Grantham to Peterborough.

 

[MK Tom]

Yes, but atleast in the case of the ECML these journey times are likely to be increased sufficiently to lead to greater over all journey times, even if the waiting time is reduced.

Intercity grade service is already available at every "smaller station" between Peterborough and York, making all trains stop at all stations will make the railway less popular and drive people to drive places, it will also drive the long distance commuters at Grantham to Peterborough.

This is the same concern I have on the WCML. If intercity trains are all stopping at Hemel Hempstead and Leighton Buzzard it will send the journey times from Coventry, Rugby and Milton Keynes through the roof. We will all lose our non-stop or one-stop services to London and our fast services to the north. I fear MK would lose its direct services to Manchester. The WCML would just become a gigantic metro line.

 

[tbtc]

There's certainly a parallel between stations like Milton Keynes and Grantham.

The point I'd make is that at the moment most trains on the ECML/WCML run non-stop through these stations, and the London bound passengers on the services which do stop have to compete with longer distance passengers for seats.

HS2 will allow Grantham/ MK (etc) a more appropriate level of service, rather than being dependent on stops in services to/from Leeds/Manchester etc.

 

[MK Tom]

With all due respect to Grantham which is a fine town, MK and Coventry are far more comparable to Peterborough (in fact that's the only ECML city south of Leeds that is comparable in size). Both are within the top 25 settlements in the country in population terms. Whilst an increase in frequency is very, very welcome, it shouldn't come at the expensive of journey times. I for one am happy for a few services to run through non-stop if it means we keep our 30 minutes to Euston and two-stop services to Manchester and Birmingham. Milton Keynes and Coventry are both major regional hubs and shouldn't be treated like minor towns. Coventry, were it not next to Birmingham, would be treated as a destination in its own right. I guess what I'm saying here is I want to support HS2 but that support is dependent on an intermediate stop to serve the MK/Northampton/Aylesbury/Bedford area which has a combined population somewhere in the 800,000 region. I realise high-speed rail is about long distances with few stops, but such a station would work if some services passed non-stop while others that did stop missed out other stops such as Old Oak Common or Birmingham Airport.

 

[HSTEd]

I realise high-speed rail is about long distances with few stops, but such a station would work if some services passed non-stop while others that did stop missed out other stops such as Old Oak Common or Birmingham Airport.

Japan manages high speed rail with large numbers of stops, at-least as many per kilometre as the EC trains current serve on the ECML.

EDIT:

In this context "more appropriate" service almost certainly means slower services with fewer amenities, probably an extension of Thameslink services or other Outer Suburban trains out of King's Cross.

Such a service would be far less popular and likely to result in a drop in passenger numbers, especially when such trains (in the case of Grantham and Newark), would stop several more times than currently before reaching London.

Frequency isnt everything.

 

[YorkshireBear]

Jimmy Owl;

Yeah not the Met. (Hah usual rivalry coming out there)
Hmm I think you are right as they are already thinking of expanding the platforms further like John Carlson said, also I found that they are making a southern entrance in the future which also looks a tight squeeze in itself. Still I do think it would be better to keep a HS2 station in the city centre as moving 1000+ passengers 3 x an hour from say an outer station to the centre must be difficult?
Only places that come to mind would be two brownfield sites, one on Whitehall Road right near Globe Road (possibly using the carpark aswell) and a place on Sweet Street West (which appears to have an old factory there, although it may have been torn down now). As for blank canvasses Cross Gates that Invincibles mentioned does seem really viable, as for me I just found one right near White Rose Shopping Centre although it does seem far out.

I notice your doing civil and structural engineering.... 3rd or 4th year? I am a second year on same course. (i cant send you a personal message yet as you havent made enough posts)

Well if it isn't going to be city centre then (as said with cross gates) then it needs to interchange with rail and bus. So as to provide links to leeds station and the city itself. But city centre would be preferable maybe we could just knock the met down....

 

[IanXC]

Yorkshire Post are reporting this weekend that HS2 Ltd have been asked to make proposals to the Transport Secretary on a further link from the Leeds route to "a new station near York and a connection to the ECML". Proposals due in the new year.

 

[tbtc]

Yorkshire Post are reporting this weekend that HS2 Ltd have been asked to make proposals to the Transport Secretary on a further link from the Leeds route to "a new station near York and a connection to the ECML". Proposals due in the new year.

If it were up to me (which it clearly isn't) I'd go (straight) north from Leeds, not all the way over to York - you'd get a much faster journey going via Ripon etc.

 

[HSTEd]

Well that seals the fate of the southern ECML, we wont even get Grand Central trains through Grantham/Newark.

 

[Rational Plan]

I don't why every one thinks they are going to end up with long distance commuter service. It all depends where all the main passenger flows go, which I assume will be London, Leeds and York. You could combine a half hourly all stops on the East Coast between London and Leeds combined with other services that only serve some stations to maintain journey times. Similar mixing could occur on the West Coast.

 

[MK Tom]

Does anyone know if the countries that already have extensive high speed networks (principally the likes of France and Germany) have any parallels for MK, Coventry, Leicester and so on? As in cities in the 200,000-300,000 size bracket that have been bypassed by the HSL network? I'm interested in what kind of service losses and/or gains they've experienced as they might offer some clues as to what can be expected for MK/Coventry/Newark/Peterborough.

 

[HSTEd]

Because once the intercity trains are truncated to York/possibly Hull they will decide that 1 train per hour is sufficient service for those destinations out of King's Cross and that the additional paths and platform space in Central London will be better employed on commuter services, they will also probably try to make the "fast" train stop at places like Potter's Bar to enable it to fit in with the other patterns on the fast lines.

 

[Rational Plan]

Does anyone know if the countries that already have extensive high speed networks (principally the likes of France and Germany) have any parallels for MK, Coventry, Leicester and so on? As in cities in the 200,000-300,000 size bracket that have been bypassed by the HSL network? I'm interested in what kind of service losses and/or gains they've experienced as they might offer some clues as to what can be expected for MK/Coventry/Newark/Peterborough.

Well I've read that SNCF consider towns of 200,000 worthy of a stop on a high spped line, and Germany often ends up with service to towns quite small due to political pressure.

The smaller stations don't have a very frequent service though. A UK system seems more about removing the main flows from the existing network releasing seating capacity for smaller stations.

 

[Invincibles]

I think the time for Peterborough and Leicester is when the later HS lines are being planned.

Nottingham and Derby should be served by a station at Toton.

Sheffield and Rotherham (possibly Doncaster) by an interchange near Meadowhall.

Leeds and Wakefield by Cross Gates

York ultimately by its current station, until the line is extended to Newcastle (which I would do quickly with a station between Darlington and Middlesbrough).

The major advantage of stations between cities, like Toton is that they serve large numbers of people in each city. Yes those making the journey across Nottingham to reach Toton have it harder, but traditionally it is easier to get round a city centre than compete with the congestion within it.

Looking at services post HS2(3) then I suppose what we will see on the ECML is something like:

1 tph Edinburgh - Newcastle - Durham - Darlington - York (interchange for HS) - Doncaster - Newark - Peterborough - KGX
1 tph York - Doncaster - Retford - Grantham - Peterborough - Stevenage - KGX
1 tph Leeds - Wakefield - Doncaster - Peterborough - KGX
1 tph Leeds - Wakefield - Retford - Newark - Hitchin - KGX
1 pth Hull/Lincoln (then stations) Newark - Grantham - Peterborough - Stevenage - KGX

If that happens you get a couple more trains per hour at the smaller stations, Peterborough becomes a major interchange to east anglia, journey times do not increase significantly and there is a better service south of Peterborough. For me this would actually be quite good compensation for thos ECML cities that miss out in the first wave of HS2.

I imagine it would be a similar story on the WCML where trains go down the HS2 line from Manchester, Some use the airport* station and some use the Warrington* station to pick up Manchester passengers. Some would come out of Piccadilly (addmitedly using the line through East Didsbury). There would still be services from the classical stations along the classical route, just each would pick up stops in the trent valley, at Milton Keynes (I imagine almost all) and maybe Northampton and Watford Junction would see a lot more services.

Coventry is close to Birmingham International HS station and should be provided with a good shuttle service from Coventry to the station to allow simple interchange (bus if necessary, but I think a branch line could be built to facilitate interchange)

 

[HSTEd]

I think the time for Peterborough and Leicester is when the later HS lines are being planned.

Nottingham and Derby should be served by a station at Toton.

Sheffield and Rotherham (possibly Doncaster) by an interchange near Meadowhall.

Leeds and Wakefield by Cross Gates

York ultimately by its current station, until the line is extended to Newcastle (which I would do quickly with a station between Darlington and Middlesbrough).

The major advantage of stations between cities, like Toton is that they serve large numbers of people in each city. Yes those making the journey across Nottingham to reach Toton have it harder, but traditionally it is easier to get round a city centre than compete with the congestion within it.

Looking at services post HS2(3) then I suppose what we will see on the ECML is something like:

1 tph Edinburgh - Newcastle - Durham - Darlington - York (interchange for HS) - Doncaster - Newark - Peterborough - KGX
1 tph York - Doncaster - Retford - Grantham - Peterborough - Stevenage - KGX
1 tph Leeds - Wakefield - Doncaster - Peterborough - KGX
1 tph Leeds - Wakefield - Retford - Newark - Hitchin - KGX
1 pth Hull/Lincoln (then stations) Newark - Grantham - Peterborough - Stevenage - KGX

If that happens you get a couple more trains per hour at the smaller stations, Peterborough becomes a major interchange to east anglia, journey times do not increase significantly and there is a better service south of Peterborough. For me this would actually be quite good compensation for thos ECML cities that miss out in the first wave of HS2.

I imagine it would be a similar story on the WCML where trains go down the HS2 line from Manchester, Some use the airport* station and some use the Warrington* station to pick up Manchester passengers. Some would come out of Piccadilly (addmitedly using the line through East Didsbury). There would still be services from the classical stations along the classical route, just each would pick up stops in the trent valley, at Milton Keynes (I imagine almost all) and maybe Northampton and Watford Junction would see a lot more services.

Coventry is close to Birmingham International HS station and should be provided with a good shuttle service from Coventry to the station to allow simple interchange (bus if necessary, but I think a branch line could be built to facilitate interchange)

Its pretty much a given once the line reaches York, if not once it reaches Leeds that all ECML intercity trains north of there will be diverted onto it using Classic Compatible trains.

Also why have you given Newark 2tph and Grantham only 1? Grantham is the larger town.