HS1 routing advice

[postye]

I need to do a return trip into London from Gravesend next week and ideally would like to arrive at St Pancras.
Is an anytime SDR Gravesend - Boundary z4 any permitted and an annual zones 1-4 Oyster card valid into St Pancras?

Thanks

 

[JamesRowden]

I need to do a return trip into London from Gravesend next week and ideally would like to arrive at St Pancras.
Is an anytime SDR Gravesend - Boundary z4 any permitted and an annual zones 1-4 Oyster card valid into St Pancras?

Thanks

Deleted

 

[156402]

I need to do a return trip into London from Gravesend next week and ideally would like to arrive at St Pancras.
Is an anytime SDR Gravesend - Boundary z4 any permitted and an annual zones 1-4 Oyster card valid into St Pancras?

Thanks

A simple answer is no, no in boundary travelcards are valid nor any tickets to/from boundary zones.

The only tickets valid are point to point tickets marked 'plus high speed' for the journey you want to make.

 

[furlong]

But also consider:

The Oyster map states only that Oyster Pay As You Go is not valid on HS1 routes. It shows trains pass through Stratford International in Zone 3.

The southeastern website's FAQ says:

10. Do you accept Oyster cards on your network?

We accept season tickets on Oyster on our network (within the valid zones)

The route on the extension ticket is ANY PERMITTED.

 

[156402]

But also consider:

The Oyster map states only that Oyster Pay As You Go is not valid on HS1 routes. It shows trains pass through Stratford International in Zone 3.

The southeastern website's FAQ says:



The route on the extension ticket is ANY PERMITTED.

That is as maybe but the TFL website (and bearing in mind an inboundary travelcard is a TfL product which they price) clearly states that travelcards are not valid on SE High Speed services between St Pancras and Stratford International. It also lists Heathrow Express and Heathrow Connect between Hayes and the Airport as not being valid either.

Or I am assuming you will also state its valid on the latter two regardless as it appears on the map!

 

[RJ]

The only tickets valid are point to point tickets marked 'plus high speed' for the journey you want to make.

That is not true - Southeastern do advertise that certain tickets routed Any Permitted are valid for use on HS1. Less well publicised is the fact it specifically states in the franchise agreement that all tickets shown in the National Routeing Guide as valid via CTRL must be accepted - which includes various tickets neither routed Plus High Speed nor Any Permitted.

 

[156402]

That is not true - Southeastern do advertise that certain tickets routed Any Permitted are valid for use on HS1. Less well publicised is the fact it specifically states in the franchise agreement that all tickets shown in the National Routeing Guide as valid via CTRL must be accepted - which includes various tickets neither routed Plus High Speed nor Any Permitted.

It is true for the journey the OP wishes to make, in this case Gravesend to London St Pancras which has no any permitted fare available. I did try to make crystal clear in my reply.

 

[LewFinnis]

I often travel from Dover to Swindon via St Pancras and Paddington and the only routing restriction shown on the ticket is 'via Slough'. I always use advance booking so I have train restrictions, of course.

 

[34D]

I do not think so since there are no stations on HS1 in zone 4.

This is irrelevant

 

[bb21]

But also consider:

The Oyster map states only that Oyster Pay As You Go is not valid on HS1 routes. It shows trains pass through Stratford International in Zone 3.

The southeastern website's FAQ says:

The route on the extension ticket is ANY PERMITTED.

If the message regarding validity on HS1 were not there, I would be happy to argue that a Travelcard plus a Boundary Zone extension should be valid on them. Given that every piece of publicity about Travecard products clearly state that they are not valid on HS1 unless routed accordingly, I don't think realistically a passenger can argue their case for using that combination. There is no validity beyond the inner boundary of their BZ ticket.

 

[LexyBoy]

Despite being shown as such on ATOC and SouthEastern maps, Stratford International and St Pancras International (SET) stations lie outwith the London Zones.

 

[island]

To be clear, because there has been several pieces of advice on this thread that are at best ambiguous and at worst wrong, the above-mentioned combination of tickets is not valid on HS1, as a zone 1-4 Travelcard is not valid on HS1 unless it specifically says it is.

Now, a Gravesend to Boundary Zone 2 ticket might be a different story if one wanted to change at Stratford Int SE, walk to Stratford London, and continue to London Liverpool Street...

 

[MikeWh]

Now, a Gravesend to Boundary Zone 2 ticket might be a different story if one wanted to change at Stratford Int SE, walk to Stratford London, and continue to London Liverpool Street...

But isn't an in-boundary travelcard and a BZ extension treated as one ticket, so the extension isn't valid because the travelcard isn't?

 

[CyrusWuff]

Southeastern's line is that "in-boundary" Travelcards are never valid on HS1, nor are "Early Bird" season tickets, nor their own Super Off-Peak tickets (ticket types SRR and SWS) and High Speed "supplements" are not available to holders of such tickets.

They also allege that tickets to/from London Terminals are not valid on HS1 if routed "Any Permitted", and that the only time an "Any Permitted" ticket is valid is for longer distance journeys (excluding Travelcards) such as York to Dover.

How enforceable any of those are is an exercise left to the reader...

 

[island]

But isn't an in-boundary travelcard and a BZ extension treated as one ticket, so the extension isn't valid because the travelcard isn't?

Which official document says that an inboundary Travelcard and a BZ ticket are treated as one ticket?

 

[John @ home]

isn't an in-boundary travelcard and a BZ extension treated as one ticket, so the extension isn't valid because the travelcard isn't?

Which official document says that an inboundary Travelcard and a BZ ticket are treated as one ticket?

I don't think that a piece of card showing origin and destination of the boundary of a zone and a named railway station is a ticket at all. By itself, it is not a pass entitling the holder to board a train, a bus, a plane, or other means of transportation. Instead, it has the status of a voucher which, when used with a valid ticket, extends the validity of that ticket.

 

[maniacmartin]

clearly states that travelcards are not valid on SE High Speed services between St Pancras and Stratford International.

Can you post a link to this, as this very question came up fairly recently, but I've been unable to find that thread. At the time, I started off thinking that the combination was not valid, but could not find any documentation stating such. All I could find was the TfL map which only mentions Pay as you Go not being valid, so until further evidence emerges, I cautiously believe that the combination is valid.

Nevertheless, my advice to postye is to not travel via HS1 on this combination, as regardless of whether it is actually valid or not (it's not really that clear), you will not have a hassle-free journey.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Despite being shown as such on ATOC and SouthEastern maps, Stratford International and St Pancras International (SET) stations lie outwith the London Zones.

If SouthEastern's own maps show it as in the zones, then it is in the zones when travelling on SouthEastern as far as I'm concerned

 

[Mojo]

How about a boundary zone 2 - Ashford It ticket combined with a Zne 1-2 Tvlcd. The journey in question is Hampstead Heath to Stratford (the Tvlcd) not being valid past Hackney Wick. Then Stratford It to Ashford It. There would be no travelling on Highspeed with a Tvlcd.

 

[bb21]

The Boundary Zone ticket is not valid on its own, so I am of the understanding that you do in fact need the Travelcard for travel on High Speed on that journey.

 

[OwlMan]

Can you post a link to this, as this very question came up fairly recently, but I've been unable to find that thread.

see TFL CoC
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloads/conditions-of-carriage.pdf

Not available onSoutheastern high speed trains,
Heathrow Express and on Heathrow Connect
services between Hayes & Harlington and Heathrow
or on the Emirates Air Line

or from National Rail

Travelcards

Travelcards are zonal tickets allowing unlimited travel on London's public transport network. They can be issued for travel on any one day, seven consecutive days or for regular commuters, any period between one month and a year. Travelcards are available for travel from stations throughout London and the home counties, the south and south east and further afield on some routes.
Travelcards can be issued in a range of zonal combinations and subject to the zones purchased, you can use your Travelcard on:

• Tube, Docklands Light Railway (DLR) and National Rail services (but not Heathrow Express or Heathrow Connect services between Hayes & Harlington and Heathrow)
• Travelcards routed 'Plus High Speed' or 'Any Permitted + HS' are valid on Southeastern high speed services
• All London Bus services (except some special services and excursions) regardless of the zones for which the ticket is issued
• London Tramlink services where the Travelcard is valid for travel in Zone 3, 4, 5 or 6 or any combination of these zones

 

[johnnycache]

That is as maybe but the TFL website (and bearing in mind an inboundary travelcard is a TfL product which they price) clearly states that travelcards are not valid on SE High Speed services between St Pancras and Stratford International. It also lists Heathrow Express and Heathrow Connect between Hayes and the Airport as not being valid either.

Or I am assuming you will also state its valid on the latter two regardless as it appears on the map!

In fact inboundary Travelcards are joint TfL/nationalrail products and are priced jointly by both organisations. The commercial details including revenue allocation principles, default arrangements where agreement cannot be reached on pricing etc are contained within the Travelcard Agreement.

 

[JamesRowden]

I think that the thing that HS1, Hayes & Harlington to Heathrow (and I guess Emirates Airline) have in common is that the lines are not owned by Network Rail or TfL.

 

[island]

I don't think that a piece of card showing origin and destination of the boundary of a zone and a named railway station is a ticket at all. By itself, it is not a pass entitling the holder to board a train, a bus, a plane, or other means of transportation. Instead, it has the status of a voucher which, when used with a valid ticket, extends the validity of that ticket.

With the greatest of respect, (a) Wiktionary is not an official document, which I requested, and (b) I will obtain the said piece of card from a station on requesting "a single ticket from Gravesend to Boundary Zone 2", tendering payment of £8.70, and (possibly) producing a zone 1-2 Travelcard.

 

[maniacmartin]

see TFL CoC

Thanks. The TfL CoC is quite clear. It does conflict with TfL's mapping though. What a mess

Given that there's no reason for a passenger who buys a paper Travelcard from a TOC to ever consult the TfL Conditions of Carriage to travel on a National Rail service, I'm not sure of it's enforceability either.

or from National Rail

Although it is implied, that quote from National Rail doesn't actually say that normal Travelcards are not permitted on HS1. Nor does it say that the travelcards is discusses are the only travelcards valid on HS1, even though it may be what they intended to say.

 

[MikeWh]

But isn't an in-boundary travelcard and a BZ extension treated as one ticket, so the extension isn't valid because the travelcard isn't?

Which official document says that an inboundary Travelcard and a BZ ticket are treated as one ticket?

I don't know, but every time someone suggests that a travelcard and BZ ticket is an example of 2 zonal tickets, someone else comes along and says no, the BZ ticket is just an extension of the travelcard, like an excess, and not valid without the travelcard. You can't have it both ways!

 

[34D]

How about a boundary zone 2 - Ashford It ticket combined with a Zne 1-2 Tvlcd. The journey in question is Hampstead Heath to Stratford (the Tvlcd) not being valid past Hackney Wick. Then Stratford It to Ashford It. There would be no travelling on Highspeed with a Tvlcd.

Or what about the z1-2 travelcard and a Hackney Wick-Ashford return? £83.00 for a First Day return (which is the same price as BZ2 to Ashford FDR.

Used FDR as the standard class Hackney Wick are "not valid on HS1".

 

[bb21]

Or what about the z1-2 travelcard and a Hackney Wick-Ashford return? £83.00 for a First Day return (which is the same price as BZ2 to Ashford FDR.

Used FDR as the standard class Hackney Wick are "not valid on HS1".

What is the relevance of the Travelcard in this case?

The ticket you mentioned is valid between St Pancake and Kent on High Speed by itself.

 

[34D]

What is the relevance of the Travelcard in this case?

The ticket you mentioned is valid between St Pancake and Kent on High Speed by itself.

Ermm. Imaginery fast train from Hampstead Heath to Stratford?

It was late. I was tired. I'm still tired

 

[island]

I don't know, but every time someone suggests that a travelcard and BZ ticket is an example of 2 zonal tickets, someone else comes along and says no, the BZ ticket is just an extension of the travelcard, like an excess, and not valid without the travelcard. You can't have it both ways!

My point is very much that it's ambiguous rather than that I'm right!