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Huge fire in Grenfell Tower - West London

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Dai Corner

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Regardless of what the British building regs may or may not say, surely anybody in the construction industry, including whoever specified them, signed off the spec and signed off the finished work should have been aware of the potential hazard following the previous fires.

I'm afraid I find it in rather bad taste to try make political capital out of the disaster.
 
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Tim R-T-C

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Meanwhile social media is calling for a near social uprising that's clearly motivated by the recent election results more than this tragedy. I wonder if we're going to see rioting and police on the streets?

I suspect agitators on the far left will be hoping to use this tragedy to mobilise big protests and force a collapse of the current non-government in the hope of another election which could well see a Labour majority.

Hence particularly why trying to imply that there is a government cover-up, which would suggest they know they are responsible.
 

backontrack

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I agree with the comments regarding Lily Allen; Russell Brand must be off this week...

She made a very good point though. I really doubt that just 17 people died.

In 2016, Labour proposed an amendment to the housing bill. This amendment proposed that private sector landlords ensure that homes are fit for human habitation.

This move was rejected by 312 votes to 219. All 312 votes came from Tory MPs.

They are culpable in this incident, and so are the Conservative government. And now they must answer the questions.
 
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AlterEgo

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I don't think it is obvious that the government are concealing the death toll at all. The firefighters haven't been able to get up and recover all the bodies meaning they cannot add to the toll. It's as simple as that.
 

NorthernSpirit

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These types of cladding panels are outlawed in many countries, including the UAE, which isn't known for its building control. They're a known danger.

The government were told about this as long ago as 2009, with the Lakanal House fire. But they've ignored it for at least the last four years. Updating the building regs costs money and affects builders, many of whom fund the Tories. So it got kicked into the long grass.

I personally think this government has blood on its hands.

Considering that Labour were running the show in '09, its proof that Labour doesn't give a toss either.

The problem with all councils is that they want to try and modernise or ruin decent flats by attaching stuff to them to make them look good - it looks crap. The reasons why I won't move into a high rise is simply because of in case of a fire.
 

NorthernSpirit

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Love or loathe May this was a prime opportunity for her to show her humanist side. She could have got there before Corbyn and shown the victims that she really does care and could have gotten a few positive headlines. And I'm sure the victims would have had a go at her but at the same time I'm sure they would have appreciated her making the effort. Now she has the news headlines of her purposefully avoiding the victims and families, and members of her own party demanding she show some compassion.

May did go and visit suvivors in hospital, as it was mentioned on the BBC.
 

Darandio

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The reasons why I won't move into a high rise is simply because of in case of a fire.

Lucky you, but many don't have a choice, it's only that or homelessness.

One thing that we can surely all agree on is that regardless of whether these people have no choice but to live in them, they shouldn't be in mortal danger by doing so.
 

Bromley boy

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Rather interesting and very significant point someone has raised and been shown on the Beeb. Government recently announced hundreds of millions being made available for Buck House to refurbed yet people who live in tower blocks get substandard cheap insulation put on their accommodation. I accept this isn't all the Governments fault but when people have died so tragectly like this is does ask questions about where Government ministers priorities are.

From what I've read in the papers over the last couple of days the affected tower had quite a few millions spent on it recently. One recurring suggestion is that the standards governing insulation and cladding haven't kept pace with modern production methods so the insulation may well not be "substandard", yet has clearly still proved highly flammable.

That is a worrying problem in itself and of course must be looked into ASAP but, if correct, it suggests that simple penny-pinching isn't the root cause of this disaster.

Unfortunately many on the left (Lilly Allen) are falling over themselves to paint this disaster as the result of Tory austerity. This kind of shameless political point scoring is in very poor taste at this stage, before the facts are known and while the building is probably still smouldering.
 

Darandio

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May did go and visit suvivors in hospital, as it was mentioned on the BBC.

The day after she was initially there, yes. Because she was told to. Just like she was told to apologise to those who lost their seats.

She is nothing short of a disgrace.
 

Dai Corner

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She made a very good point though. I really doubt that just 17 people died. It's obvious that the real death toll isn't being revealed so that people can't see the full scale of the disaster.

In 2016, Labour proposed an amendment to the housing bill. This amendment proposed that private sector landlords ensure that homes are fit for human habitation.

This move was rejected by 312 votes to 219. All 312 votes came from Tory MPs.

They are culpable in this incident, and so are the Conservative government. And now they must answer the questions.

Except Grenfell Tower isn't owned or managed by a private sector landlord.
 

Darandio

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Sadiq Khan had a bottle thrown at him earlier, shame it wasn't a brick as London could do with a new mayor. Yet he'll have been told to go out and meet the angry hords of people too who want answers as to why this fire was allowed to happen.

But at least he did, Corbyn did as well. She was too late, more damage was done.
 

jon0844

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Lucky you, but many don't have a choice, it's only that or homelessness.

One thing that we can surely all agree on is that regardless of whether these people have no choice but to live in them, they shouldn't be in mortal danger by doing so.
Many choose to because they're usually quite spacious. Some like the view. A lot privately own flats for the location and space, so they're not all poor.

There are so many misconceptions going around at the moment and it seems like some people now want to spark riots to bring down the Government.

And nobody can declare people dead if they've not been found or identified. Unless you want to pick a random figure and then adjust it downwards later on. As has happened in the past with media coverage.
 

jon0844

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Except Grenfell Tower isn't owned or managed by a private sector landlord.
Indeed. It's being pointed out by relatively few that this would have played no part in this particular tragedy. Try telling that to the Socialist Worker rent-a-mob though.
 

najaB

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I really doubt that just 17 people died. It's obvious that the real death toll isn't being revealed so that people can't see the full scale of the disaster.
Keep up instead of mouthing off. The official death toll is already 30 and the fire service has said that they expect the final toll to be closer to 70.
 

Busaholic

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A lot of people on this forum (or at least those who were around at the time) would agree that in the 1970s/80s/90s, under successive governments of both political persuasions, that the railways did not get a fair share of investment from the state, possibly in part because there were insufficient influential voices arguing persuasively for such investment. Now substitute the word 'housing' for 'railways' (and particularly social housing) and add a multiplying factor and you get the disastrous situation we are in now. Politicians just wouldn't get to grips with the subject, as housing shortages grew, housebuilding rates shrunk, council housing got sold off (I'm not going to take the easy option and slag off Margaret Thatcher, because in theory councils were meant to build new homes with the proceeds of sales) and everything was done to persuade those with the means to become owner-occupiers. The revolutionary (in their day) Rent Act of 1975 and Housing Act of the same year which were meant to improve the lot of the private tenant, force private landlords to do repairs or have the properties compulsorily purchased etc were treated as pests by certain local authorities (including some Labour-controlled ones) and routinely ignored. In other authorities, with the one I worked for (Camden) at the forefront, great attempts were made to use and enforce the Acts for the good of tenants, but we were frustrated at many levels e.g. Rent Tribunals and High Court actions, and in the end you realise you're banging your head against a brick wall with too many having a vested interest in perpetuating bad conditions and skyhigh rents. Housing Associations were being established here, there and everywhere and were becoming the only way that any new social housing was being built, and among the genuinely good examples of these were others which did virtually nothing or, more alarmingly, were set up as 'scams' basically to get public money and enrich a few individuals. My own attempt to do something about what I considered to be such an operation in my borough, and getting nowhere, led to my leaving my job in the end when libel lawyers prevented a London Weekend TV programme to which I'd contributed going out - I'll just say that two people who became quite powerful in London politics (and both still alive) would have come under scrutiny. Then twenty five years or so ago housing associations/trusts were 'encouraged' to take over remaining council housing stock, so that none remains in whole swathes of the country, and led to Grenfell House and its neighbours being controlled by an organisation one stage removed (in theory, anyway) from its actual owners, the Royal Borough of Kensington and Chelsea. It has, of course, taken the death of dozens (no exaggeration there) to shine a light on the problem, but for how long?
 
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najaB

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One recurring suggestion is that the standards governing insulation and cladding haven't kept pace with modern production methods so the insulation may well not be "substandard", yet has clearly still proved highly flammable.

That is a worrying problem in itself and of course must be looked into ASAP but, if correct, it suggests that simple penny-pinching isn't the root cause of this disaster.
I strongly suspect that is the case, and suggested as much upthread. My theory is that the installation method used was intended for use with mineral-based insulation, and the panels used were tested based on their installation using a different method.

So the contractors used approved materials and an approved installation method and ended up with a ticking timebomb.
 

the sniper

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She made a very good point though. I really doubt that just 17 people died. It's obvious that the real death toll isn't being revealed so that people can't see the full scale of the disaster.

Who suggested that only 17 people died? Are the Police now saying that only 30 people died? Nope.

The Police should forget about due process. The mob should be given access into Grenfell to do the dirty work for them, as only the mob can be trusted. Lily Allen can live stream the results on Facebook... :roll:

This bloke was obviously ahead of the game: http://www.itv.com/news/2017-06-16/man-who-took-pictures-of-grenfell-tower-victims-body-is-jailed/
A man who published photos showing the body of a victim of the Grenfell Tower fire has been jailed.
Omega Mwaikambo, 43, posted still images and video on Facebook showing the remains of a person who died in the disaster.
It is understood that he opened a body bag to take pictures of the man's face.
 
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cjmillsnun

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Keep up instead of mouthing off. The official death toll is already 30 and the fire service has said that they expect the final toll to be closer to 70.

Indeed, and I have heard that directly from an official source today.
 

cjmillsnun

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I strongly suspect that is the case, and suggested as much upthread. My theory is that the installation method used was intended for use with mineral-based insulation, and the panels used were tested based on their installation using a different method.

So the contractors used approved materials and an approved installation method and ended up with a ticking timebomb.

That is my suspicion as well.
 

cjmillsnun

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A lot of people on this forum (or at least those who were around at the time) would agree that in the 1970s/80s/90s, under successive governments of both political persuasions, that the railways did not get a fair share of investment from the state, possibly in part because there were insufficient influential voices arguing persuasively for such investment. Now substitute the word 'housing' for 'railways' (and particularly social housing) and add a multiplying factor and you get the disastrous situation we are in now. Politicians just wouldn't get to grips with the subject, as housing shortages grew, housebuilding rates shrunk, council housing got sold off (I'm not going to take the easy option and slag off Margaret Thatcher, because in theory councils were meant to build new homes with the proceeds of sales) and everything was done to persuade those with the means to become owner-occupiers. The revolutionary (in their day) Rent Act of 1975 and Housing Act of the same year which were meant to improve the lot of the private tenant, force private landlords to do repairs or have the properties compulsorily purchased etc were treated as pests by certain local authorities (including some Labour-controlled ones) and routinely ignored. In other authorities, with the one I worked for (Camden) at the forefront, great attempts were made to use and enforce the Acts for the good of tenants, but we were frustrated at many levels e.g. Rent Tribunals and High Court actions, and in the end you realise you're banging your head against a brick wall with too many having a vested interest in perpetuating bad conditions and skyhigh rents. Housing Associations were being established here, there and everywhere and were becoming the only way that any new social housing was being built, and among the genuinely good examples of these were others which did virtually nothing or, more alarmingly, were set up as 'scams' basically to get public money and enrich a few individuals. My own attempt to do something about what I considered to be such an operation in my borough, and getting nowhere, led to my leaving my job in the end when libel lawyers prevented a London Weekend TV programme to which I'd contributed going out - I'll just say that two people who became quite powerful in London politics (and both still alive) would have come under scrutiny. Then twenty five years or so ago housing associations/trusts were 'encouraged' to take over remaining council housing stock, so that none remains in whole swathes of the country, and led to Grenfell House and its neighbours being controlled by an organisation one stage removed (in theory, anyway) from its actual owners, the Royal Borough of Kensington and Chelsea. It has, of course, taken the death of dozens (no exaggeration there) to shine a light on the problem, but for how long?

Post of the thread
 

Harbornite

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I really doubt that just 17 people died. It's obvious that the real death toll isn't being revealed so that people can't see the full scale of the disaster.


I don't think it's a conspiracy, are you aware of the police procedures for identifying the victims? What's more likely is that this is still ongoing and anyway, as another poser has stated, the death toll was confirmed as 30 this afternoon.
 

ralphchadkirk

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She made a very good point though. I really doubt that just 17 people died. It's obvious that the real death toll isn't being revealed so that people can't see the full scale of the disaster.

17 people have been confirmed to have died. There will be more however the figures won't be released until the bodies are found, so if you could kindly **** off with the conspiracy theories while my friends and colleagues are combing through devastation and literal hell to find them that would be appreciated.
 

theageofthetra

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Considering that Labour were running the show in '09, its proof that Labour doesn't give a toss either.

The problem with all councils is that they want to try and modernise or ruin decent flats by attaching stuff to them to make them look good - it looks crap. The reasons why I won't move into a high rise is simply because of in case of a fire.

They are fitting external cladding to comply with EU imposed building environmental regulations surrounding energy consumption & thermal insulation. Nothing to do with 'to look good'. Guys hospital tower had this done a few years ago.
 

najaB

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They are fitting external cladding to comply with EU imposed building environmental regulations surrounding energy consumption & thermal insulation.
Before people start EU-bashing, remember that the rules set a target but they don't specify how that target is met. The decision to clad the building and the materials and methods chosen were taken a lot closer to home than Brussels.
 

takno

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They are fitting external cladding to comply with EU imposed building environmental regulations surrounding energy consumption & thermal insulation. Nothing to do with 'to look good'. Guys hospital tower had this done a few years ago.
Most of the environmental regulations only apply to new builds. There are obviously good reasons to try to meet them anyway, even though clad tower blocks usually look much worse than unclad ones. You do need to do it using safe cladding however. The stuff they used here is banned in Germany and the US for that type of building, and is *definitely* not mandated by the EU.

Blaming this on the EU is like taking away the winter fuel allowance and claiming that EU environmental regulations meant we were forced to make old people freeze.
 

jon0844

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I see JustGiving is now getting stick and the salaries of directors being posted.

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/www.te...-takes-115000-fee-grenfell-tower-donors-give/


Website JustGiving will take at least*£115,000 in fees after an outpouring of charitable giving following*the Grenfell Towers tragedy.

The donations, so far totalling £2.3m, broke previous records for the largest one-day sums given via the website.

*JustGiving's fee of*5pc of any money donated - more than twice the fees of some rival donor sites - means it will get a bumper windfall.

The sums generated for the firm could be even higher, as JustGiving applies that fee to GiftAid donations too.*GiftAid enables UK taxpayers to get tax relief on any charitable donations, with this sum going to the charity too. For every £1 you give 25p can be reclaimed.*

On top of its 5pc fee the website also charges a 1.25pc "payment processing fee", reducing donations so far by a further £29,000. This increases to 1.45pc for anyone paying through PayPal, and is even more for those donating from overseas.
 
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