I admit it. I like Pacers.

[Welshman]

I made a nostalgic trip on the Huddersfield-Sheffield line last Thursday. The last time I ventured on it, it was double-track out of Huddersfield, a Class 110dmu and went directly from Penistone through the abandoned Sheffield Victoria, before reversing to get into Midland. So it's that long ago, and I was interested to see what had changed.

The outward journey was a class 150, with low seats and difficulty in finding a seat which lined-up reasonably well with the windows, but a smooth ride. Coming back, it was a 3-car 143 - a bit bouncy in parts but with excellent visibility. And I must confess, I enjoyed the 143 more, because of the better visibility through the windows.

At one stage I did wonder if we would get back, though, as we slipped and slithered all the way up out of Barnsley, and were reduced to walking-pace at one stage, but the driver did an excellent job of keeping us moving, just.

I've often wondered, would it be worth retro-fitting the Pacers with bogies, especially if they are going to be around for longer than originally intended?

 

[387star]

you mean class 144?

 

[tbtc]

I made a nostalgic trip on the Huddersfield-Sheffield line last Thursday. The last time I ventured on it, it was double-track out of Huddersfield, a Class 110dmu and went directly from Penistone through the abandoned Sheffield Victoria, before reversing to get into Midland. So it's that long ago

Sorry to hijack the thread, but can you let me know how far along the line towards Darnall the 110 went before reversing? Just beyond the junction by Nunnery Square? Or further along?

These days there's no points immediately at the junction, so you'd need to go a little way along to Darnall.

The reason I'm interested is that there's been talk of a token Stocksbridge/ Deepcar service running down this line and reversing to get to Midland.
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you mean class 144?

IS there much of a difference between the two?

I've ridden a lot of 144s, but only a handful of 143s, so can't say I'd noticed any reason why they needed a different "class" number

 

[Welshman]

IIRC, it reversed immediately after Nunnery Junction, before going down into Midland, but this was, as I said, some years ago.
And, yes, you're right, ml, I should have said a Class 144.

 

[Bittern]

Well, for a start 142094 will have only words of encouragement for this announcement!

I should think so, being a Pacer and all.

 

[tbtc]

IIRC, it reversed immediately after Nunnery Junction, before going down into Midland, but this was, as I said, some years ago

Cheers - I had no idea there were ever reversals along there

 

[4SRKT]

Must say I am truly shocked and disappointed 4SRKT. I looked up to you, a hard liner former Irish Rail loco crank.

When you came out about 67s I was glad you found something to occupy yourself in the day of the unit, as at least a 67 is a loco, and a pretty decent one at that.

It's not just about units, its the fact its a pacer! How long have you been living this double life? What's next? You love 3000s, 2700s and 22000s? What is the next confession? That the beer you have drank on railtours is in fact apple juice?

Help is available mate. Do the right thing, make that call...

What can I say? I guess it's a matter of liking things that were commonplace in one's youth. I never liked them much at the time, but York was a bit of a pacer centre, and they're now one of the few things that are left to recall the Golden Years by. We even had frequent visits by the ghastly 'pre-pacers' in the shape of the 141s on the Harrogate and Selby lines. Youths growing up in Ireland now probably will have feelings for the 3000s, 2700s etc when they're older, although obviously I loathe them; probably even more than I loathe their UK equivalents because of the speed with which they wrecked your scene. You were very lucky indeed being a teenager (I'm guessing you're in your mid-20s here) in such a loco-rich environment: you probably had access to as many loco-hauled passenger trains then than we did here even in the 1980s.

I've always had a soft spot for some units, even at the height of the haulage era. DEMUs (obviously), bubble cars, the Trans-Pennine sets for example.

 

[387star]

A 144 has BREL underframes whereas a 143 has Barclay underframes!

 

[YorkshireBear]

i dont love them but i do like them, ive spent too many hours riding them along the hallam line that i just enjoy them now, they make everything else seem amazing (so the late night EMT HST i caught home last night was a treat!)

The view is unmatched, i'd love to be able to ride one along settle to carlisle or cumbrian coast. i think if i rode them on a more scenic route than South yorkshire locals id appreciate them alot more...

 

[tbtc]

A 144 has BREL underframes whereas a 143 has Barclay underframes!

Cheers - I never knew that

 

[W-on-Sea]

I'd send all the ones here to join the 141s in Iran.
(I concede that the 142s and especially 143s and 144s are not quite as bad as the 141s)

 

[sprinterguy]

AFAIK, there are three types of Northern Pacers: the ex-Merseyrail sets, the ex-ATW ones, and the nicer ones which Northern have done up.

Do you mean ex-ATN; Northern as opposed to Wales? Although to be fair, some of the 142s currently with Northern were transferred over from Valley Lines in 2002 in exchange for a similar number of RRNE 142s in better conidition.

The original bus seats are the best seats in the Pacers. Although, when I was knee high to a grasshopper, I always used to bang my head on the metal rail on the top of the seat whenever the train bounced into a rail joint. The effect always seemed most pronounced on the curve through Gateshead approaching the High Level Bridge: Travelling dead slow on the tight bend, with maximum bounce and maximum wheel screech: All the joys of Pacer travel!

The seats that Northern Spirit fitted to it's refurbed units, both the type in the 142s and the 156s, are some of my favourite seats of any privatisation era refurb. Although the seats fitted by Northern Spirit in the 142s always seemed exceptionally flimsy and even when new were ragged around the edges with headrests and fabric hanging off, I liked them. Haven't travelled on an ex-Northern Spirit 142 for a while.

 

[Eric]

You can't beat a bumpy ride on a 142/143/144 and although they seem to be seen less these days at Bardford Interchange (apart from the Selby - Wakefield service) there's still many routes within West Yorkshire in which to catch one.

 

[YorkshireBear]

my favourite recently was leeds keighley on a 144 between leeds and shipley on top of a very bad flat it was quite a ride

 

[prod_pep]

I admit to liking the occasional ride on one - they're good for a laugh. Last year I had the choice of either a 142 or a 156 on the last Manchester - Liverpool train. Took the Pacer and the ride back was different to say the least.

However, I'd be less than impressed to use these as a regular commute. Their ride quality is of course appalling at times and I think they've had their day.

 

[Drsatan]

There are seven 142s based at Exeter depot used on 'Devon Metro' services (Exmouth - Barnstaple/Paignton) with bus seating, which doesn't provide much legroom. However, they have a large bike storage space (which isn't very clearly marked: last time I brought my bike on board I had to ask the guard beforehand where the bike space was!), which is refreshing given the lack of cycle space on newer units.

The ride quality is pretty poor, but it's better than it used to be on the Exmouth branch because that's been relaid with CWR.

The 142s will be gone soon, so everyone up north can enjoy riding them!


FGW's 143s are worse though, due to their Chapman seating which provides even less legroom than the bench seating on FGW's 142s. I'm only 5'11 and last time I traveled on one my knees were pressed up against the seat in front.

 

[4SRKT]

You can't beat a bumpy ride on a 142/143/144 and although they seem to be seen less these days at Bardford Interchange (apart from the Selby - Wakefield service) there's still many routes within West Yorkshire in which to catch one.

Selby > Wakefield is a 155 or 158 more often than a pacer these days. Best long distance run with a frequent service is Manchester Victoria > Brighouse > Leeds if you ask me.

 

[tbtc]

Best long distance run with a frequent service is Manchester Victoria > Brighouse > Leeds if you ask me.

Manchester - Hope Valley - Sheffield is hourly on a Saturday and worth a bash - great scenery from the big windows too

 

[142094]

80% of my daily commute towards Leeds used to be on a 142, I would normally let the fast 185 go to actually get this one in the morning.

It will be a sad day when they do go, I'll be planning well in advance for a good bash on them, will try and get the last working if possible. Will have to get a momento of them as well.

 

[trentside]

Surely Satan rides a Voyager? I would take a 185 over a flipping Voyager any day of the week!

Or possibly a permanent bus replacement service?

As for Pacers, I must admit to not minding them too much. The majority of my local journeys a few years ago were made on Pacers, and since moving to Nottingham I have missed the lively rides, especially when stuck on a 153...

 

[Eric]

Selby > Wakefield is a 155 or 158 more often than a pacer these days. Best long distance run with a frequent service is Manchester Victoria > Brighouse > Leeds if you ask me.

Agree but they do run every now and again, as do the Leeds -- Wakefield -- Sheffield stoppers.

Imagine my shock about a month or two back when I walked down to Forster Square to catch a train to Keighley and waiting there on platform 2 was a Pacer (just like the 1994-1998 years)

The Leeds - Morecambe - Heysham Port train is a 142 80% of the time and clocks well over two hours.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

80% of my daily commute towards Leeds used to be on a 142, I would normally let the fast 185 go to actually get this one in the morning. It will be a sad day when they do go, I'll be planning well in advance for a good bash on them, will try and get the last working if possible. Will have to get a momento of them as well.

I've never done anything like that mate, but agree in that when the time comes I'll try catch the last run (which I hope isn't for a good twenty years yet).
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Manchester - Hope Valley - Sheffield is hourly on a Saturday and worth a bash - great scenery from the big windows too

I've never done that route as it's a bit out of the way.

 

[tbtc]

I've never done that route as it's a bit out of the way.

Its part of the Northern Pacer Circle:

Liverpool - Manchester Victoria - Huddersfield - Barnsley - Sheffield - Hope - Manchester Pic - Manchester Deansgate - Liverpool all by Pacer

(the short stretch from Piccadilly to Deansgate isn't always Pacers, as has been pointed out to me, but you can still get Pacers on it)

 

[Eric]

Its part of the Northern Pacer Circle:

Liverpool - Manchester Victoria - Huddersfield - Barnsley - Sheffield - Hope - Manchester Pic - Manchester Deansgate - Liverpool all by Pacer

(the short stretch from Piccadilly to Deansgate isn't always Pacers, as has been pointed out to me, but you can still get Pacers on it)

Do you know how much it would cost Bradford to Liverpool via Sheffield?

 

[YorkshireBear]

Do you know how much it would cost Bradford to Liverpool via Sheffield?

Bradford (interchange) to manchester via sheffield is £18 or £11 with railcard.... thats the south pennines day ranger

 

[142094]

I've never done anything like that mate, but agree in that when the time comes I'll try catch the last run (which I hope isn't for a good twenty years yet).

The main reason was to get a guaranteed seat, so the Pacer was the bonus. However it did mean I got into Leeds about 25 minutes after the 185, so I was sacrifcing a bit of time for the ride.

The longest I've done is 3 hours Middlesbrough - Carlisle straight through (06.56 off MBR), and then the working straight back to Newcastle. Also have done a whole day on them in and around Newcastle, but will be doing many more in the next few years!

 

[Grumpy]

I would suggest a class 144 on welded track gives an acceptable ride at 70mph. The big windows give the best outside views of any modern unit, and the current seating as comparable with any DMU. The interior is generally "light and bright" If one turns up at my local station in lieu of a 333, the average passenger will not notice the difference-certainly you never hear derogatory comments eg why have "they" put this old boneshaker on. The worst feature is the old "bus grant" doors which allow draughts and noise, particularly in tunnels.

However I find the 142's to be generally poor.

It should also be remembered that we are talking about a 25 year old design. In the intervening period car and bus offerings for passengers have progressed. When the Pacers were being introduced Austin's new car was the Maestro, and you wouldn't sell many of those now. Similarly we can criticise the 142 but you wont see many of the once ubiquitous Leyland National buses now-the industry has moved on. My local buses have aircon and leather seats.

Yet the original idea for the Pacers was fine. Take advantage of the low parts cost in the bus industry and the result was a vehicle cheaper to buy and run.

So I would suggest that the best replacement for the Pacers should be a modern new build Pacer. Thus taking the 144 as a base using parts from current British production buses, but include Aircon and plug type doors to reduce noise.

For 30 minute or so commuter type journeys into our Cities these should be perfectly adequate. Given our bankrupt economy we have to change the outlook to what we can afford, and that we can build in Britain

 

[Eric]

Bradford (interchange) to manchester via sheffield is £18 or £11 with railcard.... thats the south pennines day ranger

Cheers I think I'll give that route a bash a week on Sunday when I'm off.

 

[YorkshireBear]

Cheers I think I'll give that route a bash a week on Sunday when I'm off.

South pennines day ranger i find is very good one, lots fo pacer routes and lots of scenic routes
http://www.northernrail.org/offers/dayrangers/South+Pennines+Day+Ranger

 

[sprinterguy]

I would suggest a class 144 on welded track gives an acceptable ride at 70mph. The big windows give the best outside views of any modern unit, and the current seating as comparable with any DMU. The interior is generally "light and bright" If one turns up at my local station in lieu of a 333, the average passenger will not notice the difference-certainly you never hear derogatory comments eg why have "they" put this old boneshaker on. The worst feature is the old "bus grant" doors which allow draughts and noise, particularly in tunnels.

However I find the 142's to be generally poor.

It should also be remembered that we are talking about a 25 year old design. In the intervening period car and bus offerings for passengers have progressed. When the Pacers were being introduced Austin's new car was the Maestro, and you wouldn't sell many of those now. Similarly we can criticise the 142 but you wont see many of the once ubiquitous Leyland National buses now-the industry has moved on. My local buses have aircon and leather seats.

Yet the original idea for the Pacers was fine. Take advantage of the low parts cost in the bus industry and the result was a vehicle cheaper to buy and run.

So I would suggest that the best replacement for the Pacers should be a modern new build Pacer. Thus taking the 144 as a base using parts from current British production buses, but include Aircon and plug type doors to reduce noise.

For 30 minute or so commuter type journeys into our Cities these should be perfectly adequate. Given our bankrupt economy we have to change the outlook to what we can afford, and that we can build in Britain

The problem is that a standard bus is a lot more technologically complex these days than a Leyland National of 25 years ago, so that once a bus builder had gone through the process of adapting the bus design to fit a rail chassis with the resultant changes in crashworthiness it’s probably not much cheaper than buying an off-the-shelf basic DMU design.

I’m trying to remember how much the new Alexander-Dennis Enviro 400s cost to buy when they were being introduced by National Express West Midlands whilst I was with them. A figure of £180,000 each rings a bell. Admittedly a lot less than the sort of £800,000 figure for a basic DMU carriage, but just how much would a rail-based Enviro 400 cost with all the adaptations necessary?

Building a new design of Railbus would probably just be repeating all the mistakes caused when the Pacers were introduced by short-sighted ordering of trains that would be obsolete in terms of passenger comfort inside 20 years, just like the buses they are based on, except that the buses were only expected to have an operational life of 15 years, whereas the trains are expected to last at least twice that.

 

[asylumxl]

except that the buses were only expected to have an operational life of 15 years, whereas the trains are expected to last at least twice that.

Unless owned by Arriva Shires..