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Incident at Loughborough Junction (18/06)

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Merseysider

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Seems some people have no notion whatsoever of sensitivity - Tory Brian Cooke has pissed off quite a few people by referring to the deceased as ‘common scum’.

The tweet is protected but a screenshot is attached.

I just don’t see the need to go jumping to conclusions and sullying the dead.
 

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WelshBluebird

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Is it sad that people are dead? Of course.
But (and of course this is an if at this moment in time), if they were on the tracks through their own want (regardless of graffiti or not), then the only people to blame are themselves.
It's sad, but sometimes people cause their own deaths by being stupid (and yes, going on live railway tracks if you are not supposed to be there is the very definition of stupid).
 

WelshBluebird

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So two of the families have come out and said that they were vandalising the railway (or as they said - "painting graffiti late at night in a particularly dangerous place" and that "He was an intelligent and wonderful boy who had so many close friends" and that he was a "beautiful artist").

Of course, what they could have instead said was that their son was horribly taken from them because he was carrying out a dangerous and illegal activity and used it was a warning to others about the dangers. Sadly it looks like they are taking the "my poor darling" approach instead of admitting that it was his dangerously and illegal actions which killed him.
 
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matt_world2004

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Seems some people have no notion whatsoever of sensitivity - Tory Brian Cooke has pissed off quite a few people by referring to the deceased as ‘common scum’.

The tweet is protected but a screenshot is attached.

I just don’t see the need to go jumping to conclusions and sullying the dead.
I dont agree with the tweet and three people didnt deserve to die for tagging prematurely like this. But frontline magazine complaining about the tweet is a little rich considering the magazine condones and encourages behaviour that result in the deaths of these three individuals.
 
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Ibex

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The TOC I work for have issued a staff briefing today stating they've had reports that three-pronged crowns are being grafittied across the railway in memory of the 'victims' with the usual security spiel about reporting suspicious activity to BTP etc. Clearly no lessons learnt by others who partake in vandalism. Tragic all round.
 

InOban

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How did they access the tracks? Have NR been failing to maintain their boundary fences, walls etc?
 

Mojo

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How did they access the tracks? Have NR been failing to maintain their boundary fences, walls etc?
I don’t think there’s any suggestion of that. Anyone can climb over or cut through a fence if they try hard enough.
 

ComUtoR

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How did they access the tracks? Have NR been failing to maintain their boundary fences, walls etc?

It is physically impossible to restrict access to the track. 1. You can walk off the end of the platform 2. 6ft fence, 7ft ladder
 

broadgage

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How did they access the tracks? Have NR been failing to maintain their boundary fences, walls etc?
We do not know, but the obvious way would be via a platform, and then walking along the track.
The railway in question is well above road level and hard to access except via stations.
 

swt_passenger

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How did they access the tracks? Have NR been failing to maintain their boundary fences, walls etc?
I don’t think any track is impossible to reach for those determined enough, even if they have to walk from the nearest open station along the tracks. You certainly don’t ‘accidentally’ end up in the sort of location in this story.
 

38Cto15E

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We will have to wait until official reports are published for all the details, but for 3 young people not getting out of the way of a 20mph freight train, probably with the loco bright lights shining, noisy diesel engine, and possibly squeaky track on the curve , something doesn't seem straight forward about this tragedy.
 

Antman

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How did they access the tracks? Have NR been failing to maintain their boundary fences, walls etc?

I think Brixton station is left unlocked at night, easily have walked down the track from there, the rail network in this country is more secure than in many other countries but it's never going to be impenetrable.
 

matt_world2004

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We will have to wait until official reports are published for all the details, but for 3 young people not getting out of the way of a 20mph freight train, probably with the loco bright lights shining, noisy diesel engine, and possibly squeaky track on the curve , something doesn't seem straight forward about this tragedy.
The bbc reported it was an ecs passenger train that hit them.
 

duncanp

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....He was an intelligent and wonderful boy who had so many close friends....

He can't have been very intelligent if was walking along railway tracks without permission or proper safety training.

he was a beautiful artist

No - he was a vandal and a criminal whose actions mean that other people have to spend a lot of time and money clearing up the mess that he has made.

I wonder how the people who make these statements would feel if another "..beautiful artist..." came along and sprayed paint all over their property.
 

takno

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He can't have been very intelligent if was walking along railway tracks without permission or proper safety training.



No - he was a vandal and a criminal whose actions mean that other people have to spend a lot of time and money clearing up the mess that he has made.

I wonder how the people who make these statements would feel if another "..beautiful artist..." came along and sprayed paint all over their property.
Do you spend much time hanging around crematoriums saying "actually ... " at the end of the eulogies and then following it with a torrent of abuse? How can you possibly get so angry about a family having the temerity to love their child? What on earth is wrong with you?

I dislike grafitti and trespassers as much as the next man, but what's the value in being so utterly vile about it?
 

farleigh

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Well
Do you spend much time hanging around crematoriums saying "actually ... " at the end of the eulogies and then following it with a torrent of abuse? How can you possibly get so angry about a family having the temerity to love their child? What on earth is wrong with you?

I dislike grafitti and trespassers as much as the next man, but what's the value in being so utterly vile about it?
Perfectly put Takno
 

3141

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I think Brian Cooke's comment was absolutely unnecessary. Whatever he may think about the deceased, their families, especially, and their friends have suffered a heart-breaking loss.
But the probability is that these people had gone onto the tracks to commit a criminal offence. In fact they were committing an offence by going there, and by doing so put their lives in danger. Many do it and survive. These people seem to have made the mistake of being in a particularly wrong place at the wrong time, and didn't. They were extremely foolish, and they paid an extreme price. I understand their parents recalling the positive things about them, though the more there was going for them, the more surprising their behaviour seems. Many people, younger and older, do things which, on reflection, they'd recognise as irresponsible, but being on a railway track for the purpose of vandalism goes beyond mere high spirits, and I think it's justifiable to feel reduced sympathy for the unfortunate young men in this case.
 

LeylandLen

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Statement from BTP today ...
A BTP statement released on Tuesday said: "Over the last 24 hours, extensive enquiries have taken place to establish how and why the men came to be on the tracks, and how they died.

"It is now believed the men were hit by an out of service passenger train shortly after 1am. That train has been identified and has been forensically examined.

"Officers are also continuing to analyse CCTV footage from yesterday morning and talk to potential witnesses."
(copied from Evening Standard website )
 
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broadgage

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Images on line, that I do not consider it helpful to share, show the scale of the vandalism done by this gang to trains and other property.
So I feel that they may correctly be called criminals.
Whilst parents do often love their children, I do not feel that public statements by the parents glorifying the dead criminals are appropriate. A dignified silence would be more appropriate.
 

bussnapperwm

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I’m on a mobile and abroad so can’t post it properly in accordance with the rules, but the following article has appeared on the BBC website:

Railway graffiti: Props, respect and death http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-44523953
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-44523953
...Despite the obvious and inherent dangers, tagging on the railways has hit an eight-year high in Great Britain.

In the first three months of 2018 there were 982 graffiti attacks on trains, stations, lines, depots or footbridges - the highest quarterly figure since 2013.

The peril is seemingly part of the appeal.

The website for Frontline London, a graffiti magazine, says it "is here to take you back to the roots of painting. To where it belongs, to where risk, location, timing, style make a writer as good as their work."

But although there is a recent surge in reports, the train-art movement goes back decades, to 1970s New York City.

"For graffiti crews in the '70s it was all about being seen," says Richard Clay, professor of digital humanities at Newcastle University...
 
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Overspeed110

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I don't see graffiti artists as criminals. Some graffiti is very pleasing on the eye. Yes it's illegal, but so is doing 35mph in a 30.
Some people need to get a grip on what proper criminals actually are.
Absolute tragedy for everyone involved.
 

A Challenge

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I’m on a mobile and abroad so can’t post it properly in accordance with the rules, but the following article has appeared on the BBC website:

Railway graffiti: Props, respect and death http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-44523953
Here you go:
BBC News said:
Three graffiti artists were killed by a train in south London in the early hours of Monday. They had nowhere to run when a freight train thundered through the darkness near Loughborough Junction.

Trip, Kbag and Lover - real names Alberto Carrasco, 19, and 23-year-olds Jack Gilbert and Harrison Scott-Hood - had planned to spray their tags and go home.

Mr Carrasco had contacted his parents Isabel and Carlos at 22:00 BST on Sunday to say he would be back in time for dinner.

At 07:34 the following morning, three bodies were spotted on the tracks and police had to tell three families their boys would never come home again.

Because as Supt Matt Allingham from British Transport Police said, "There isn't a safe refuge up there. If they've been caught in that section of track when a train came through then they really wouldn't have had much option."

Despite the obvious and inherent dangers, tagging on the railways has hit an eight-year high in Great Britain.

In the first three months of 2018 there were 982 graffiti attacks on trains, stations, lines, depots or footbridges - the highest quarterly figure since 2013.

The peril is seemingly part of the appeal.

The website for Frontline London, a graffiti magazine, says it "is here to take you back to the roots of painting. To where it belongs, to where risk, location, timing, style make a writer as good as their work."

_102106144_chart-graffiti_birmingham-5cfe6-nc.png

EDIT: I have been beaten to it by @Class 172 Fan
 

Iskra

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I don't see graffiti artists as criminals. Some graffiti is very pleasing on the eye. Yes it's illegal, but so is doing 35mph in a 30.
Some people need to get a grip on what proper criminals actually are.
Absolute tragedy for everyone involved.

I see what you’re saying, but would you feel the same way if the side of your house got done and you had to remove it at your expense?

I’m not too bothered about bridges/cuttings etc, but when it’s an x-million pound unit that might be taken out of service prematurely leading to cancellation and cleaned at the expense of fare-payers, it’s going too far.
 

Iskra

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Three graffiti artists were killed by a train in south London in the early hours of Monday. They had nowhere to run when a freight train thundered through the darkness near Loughborough Junction.

Trip, Kbag and Lover - real names Alberto Carrasco, 19, and 23-year-olds Jack Gilbert and Harrison Scott-Hood - had planned to spray their tags and go home.

Mr Carrasco had contacted his parents Isabel and Carlos at 22:00 BST on Sunday to say he would be back in time for dinner.

At 07:34 the following morning, three bodies were spotted on the tracks and police had to tell three families their boys would never come home again.

Because as Supt Matt Allingham from British Transport Police said, "There isn't a safe refuge up there. If they've been caught in that section of track when a train came through then they really wouldn't have had much option."

Despite the obvious and inherent dangers, tagging on the railways has hit an eight-year high in Great Britain.

In the first three months of 2018 there were 982 graffiti attacks on trains, stations, lines, depots or footbridges - the highest quarterly figure since 2013.

The peril is seemingly part of the appeal.

The website for Frontline London, a graffiti magazine, says it "is here to take you back to the roots of painting. To where it belongs, to where risk, location, timing, style make a writer as good as their work."

But although there is a recent surge in reports, the train-art movement goes back decades, to 1970s New York City.

"For graffiti crews in the '70s it was all about being seen," says Richard Clay, professor of digital humanities at Newcastle University.

"Those growing up in the Bronx could achieve fame through spraying their tags, and if the tags were on the outside of trains going on multiple routes, they could become 'all-city' famous."

It arguably began with an artist called TAKI 183 - Taki being a diminutive of a number of Greek names - who began spraying his name and street number onto ice cream trucks in his neighbourhood in Washington Heights, northern Manhattan, in 1969.

The following autumn, he went to high school in Midtown Manhattan, taking the 1 train down and back. Along the way, he wrote TAKI 183 on the subway stations and anywhere else he thought was a good spot, emulating the election posters and stickers plastered around the city for the elections in 1968 and 1970.

A journalist from the New York Times tracked TAKI 183 down. After the publication of an interview in 1971, tagging on the railways soared.

But, as Prof Clay who has made a BBC documentary about graffiti points out, putting your tag on a rail-side wall means passengers see it for just a split second.

The design, therefore, has to be striking and memorable. Locations on busy sites, such as routes into central London, are highly sought-after because more people see the piece.

Far more impressive within the scene is managing to paint on the outside of a carriage.

"It's the 'uppest' to have your tag on the outside of a train car that will run around the city. A whole car is hard - it's tall and you'd need a ladder, so it's much more common to see a half car or just a piece of a car done," Prof Clay says.

"Painting high up is... a signifier the artist has nerve; it's more visible than a ground-level piece, and it's difficult to clear"

And artists would have to be quick - about 15 minutes for a piece in the dark - so they were very well prepared, planning the design in a sketchpad beforehand and practising in timed conditions.

"Back in the days before CCTV, it was very much a cat-and-mouse game. Crews would have to paint in the train yard in the dark. One guy, his name was Morn, named himself after the only time he could see his work before it was scrubbed away or painted over - the early morning," says Prof Clay.

"Train painters were the top of the tree, they thought of wall painters as lightweight kids. The train painters would rehearse their designs on walls near train lines first, and when they were ready would do a lightning strike."

He explains artists don't tend to bother with underground trains as they get scrubbed clean almost straight away. Indeed, Network Rail's policy is "to remove all graffiti as soon as safely possible... We aim to remove offensive graffiti within 24 hours".

Freight trains, however, don't get cleaned, so they are a better target for graffiti artists.

"But it's really risky," says Prof Clay. "There's the transport police, CCTV, the danger of the third rail. It is very dangerous, and it's the danger that earns props and respect."

Another significant factor is the rise of social media.

Where once an artist would have to take a photograph of his or her work and have it developed, the only way to share images would be by showing people directly or sending it to a graffiti magazine.

Now, within seconds of work being finished, it can be uploaded and shared around the world to vast numbers. UK Frontline's Instagram account, for example, has nearly 18,000 followers.

Thanks to such sites, "an artist in Brixton knows what the scene is like in New York, Bulgaria, France, Germany", says Prof Clay - very different to the 1990s, when artists did not really know each other's work.

"It's a global audience and artists are global practitioners."

But those who trespass on the tracks for the sake of a tag are taking a very real risk.

"If that is what they were doing, the three men who sadly died in London aren't the first to die rail graffiti painting, either on the track-side wall or the train itself," he says.

It seems unlikely they will be the last.

Thanks
 

3141

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I don't see graffiti artists as criminals. Some graffiti is very pleasing on the eye. Yes it's illegal, but so is doing 35mph in a 30.
Some people need to get a grip on what proper criminals actually are.
Absolute tragedy for everyone involved.

You may not "see" it that way, but an action which is in breach of a law is a criminal act. However, people may have differing views about the seriousness of a particular criminal act.
 

GB

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I don't see graffiti artists as criminals. Some graffiti is very pleasing on the eye. Yes it's illegal, but so is doing 35mph in a 30.
Some people need to get a grip on what proper criminals actually are.
Absolute tragedy for everyone involved.

Shall I come an "tag" your house then? Or is it ok to tag property when its not yours or not your responsibility for paying for repairs or clean up?
 

Southern

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Statement from BTP today ...
A BTP statement released on Tuesday said: "Over the last 24 hours, extensive enquiries have taken place to establish how and why the men came to be on the tracks, and how they died.

"It is now believed the men were hit by an out of service passenger train shortly after 1am. That train has been identified and has been forensically examined.

"Officers are also continuing to analyse CCTV footage from yesterday morning and talk to potential witnesses."
(copied from Evening Standard website )

I wonder if it may have been the following:

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/W64013/2018/06/18/advanced

Looks to have been booked via Herne Hill but actually sent via Catford; timing looks about right. Very sad incident, clocked a lot of condolence messages on IG earlier - believe the group the boys were part of have had a few others losses recently.
 
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