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Is it fair that Advance tickets have no value when the train is missed?

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AlterEgo

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Of course these are the options... ???

The key point, which you did not quote, is that blanket statements along the lines of 'the cheaper the ticket the more restrictions' are 100% incorrect.

Then why not just buy the cheaper unrestricted ticket?

Advances being more expensive than walk-ons are the fault of revenue management, and surely are errors. I guess a tiny fraction of one per cent of advances are more expensive than an equivalent valid walk-on fare.

It's quite simple. You're given a price for a service. Assess whether the service is worth the money to you and then either pay or don't pay.
 
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DaveNewcastle

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Then why not just buy the cheaper unrestricted ticket?

. . . . .

It's quite simple. You're given a price for a service. Assess whether the service is worth the money to you and then either pay or don't pay.
Yes, that's a perfectly reasonable response to some of the replies on here - I agree with you.
But have you read my question (about post no 35 I think)?

In that scenario (which is very relevant), I've already made my assessment of the restrictions, and have bought an Advance ticket in good faith, and am willing to be bound by its restrictions. I have no wish to appeal to anyone's discretion, I have no 'sob story' to tell (or waste time / wind up / be irrelevant). I have a £40-£50 Advance ticket and I am content with all the restrictions implied by that.
So far, its very simple.
But now, I'm late.
Maybe I'm late through transport delays, maybe personal delays, maybe professional, industial, policing, whimsical, weather, misfortune or something absolutely irrelevant to our concerns. But the fact is: I'm late. That's still very simple.
So, to remedy the delay, I have to buy a walk up Anytime at £140. That's equally simple.
There's no technical disputes, no 'reason for the delay' dispute, and no challenge relating to which company might be responsible or other 'after-the-event' excuses. - I just missed it.

But, and this is the question, why can I not (why should I not) find that my unused Advance ticket (valid, but just recently-expired Advance on face-value) cannot be acceptable towards the cost of the Anytime which I need to buy to replace it?

There's an imporant distinction being made here, and I'd appreciate an informed and considered response, please.
Please re-read my original post and let me have your response, thanks.
 
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sheff1

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Then why not just buy the cheaper unrestricted ticket?

Advances being more expensive than walk-ons are the fault of revenue management, and surely are errors. I guess a tiny fraction of one per cent of advances are more expensive than an equivalent valid walk-on fare.

It's quite simple. You're given a price for a service. Assess whether the service is worth the money to you and then either pay or don't pay.

Glad to see you agree that cheaper unresticted tickets do exist and blanket statements that they do not are incorrect.

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
100% incorrect?

Well the statement 'the cheaper the ticket the more restrictions' is either correct or it isn't .... and it isn't.
 
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AeroSpace

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But, and this is the question, why can I not (why should I not) find that my unused Advance ticket (valid, but just recently-expired Advance on face-value) cannot be acceptable towards the cost of the Anytime which I need to buy to replace it?

Why should it? It's not a bank note, it's a train ticket. A ticket that no longer even has any value to anybody.

Advance tickets are viable products only because they are restricted to a specific service, and this has to be enforced so that they are actually effective for 'demand management'.
 

yorkie

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Why should it? It's not a bank note, it's a train ticket. A ticket that no longer even has any value to anybody.
That's a weak argument and by that logic you could, at a stroke, remove all excess fares and deny all changes and refunds to tickets. Now that would really put people off travelling by train! (is that the intention?)
Advance tickets are viable products only because they are restricted to a specific service, and this has to be enforced so that they are actually effective for 'demand management'.
But that isn't the argument, and again, by this logic, you would deny someone changing the ticket for a £10 admin fee.

In the recent case of a member of this forum making a journey for which the Anytime Single is £116, he got an Advance priced at £97 and missed the train and was then charged a further £29. Does that mean that they are no longer effective because people may now think they may as well miss the train? Do you honestly think that? Do you really think he should have paid £97 plus £116 (total £213) when someone who did not pay anything in advance and buys on board pays £116? If so, then I can only say that I will have to agree to (strongly) disagree.
 

cuccir

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Have not read the whole thread (sorry) but from what I've seen no-one has mentioned rail vouchers. Refunding unused advances as TOC specific vouchers ie you could only buy other advance tickets or TOC restricted tickets with them, would be a good compromise of providing customers with value but not threatening TOC income.
 

yorkie

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This topic isn't about refunds, it's about people wanting to get later trains and, under the present system having to pay again (although as the system is so unfair many staff will be lenient)
 

Deerfold

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Have spent over three years buying advance tickets almost every week for my commute I can see why train operators want to restrict you to one train for your advance ticket with few options to change the ticket type - if you thought you had a 33% chance of catching a train you'd buy the cheap ticket and probably still save even with payment of 2 admin fees every three journeys. Train companies don't want everyone to do this.

I was quite happy to pay 10-20% of the full fare each week in the knowledge that if I missed my train I'd need a new ticket, but would still be better off in the long run (and obviously did everything I could to not miss it!). Yes, I would have paid more for that one journey but I'd still be saving overall.
 

island

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There will have to be some middle ground if the TOCs are to maximise the amount of consumer surplus they extract from people who travel at peak times on a walk-up basis.

It was mentioned above, but consider a person who is willing to pay the Anytime fare for his journey, because he does not have any way of predicting when he'll be able to travel. If an Advance ticket can be used as full credit to the payment of the Anytime, then he will logically buy an Advance for the time when he thinks he's likely to travel, and pay the extra (I'm not saying "excess", to avoid conflicting meanings) if he's late. That means that under certain circumstances, the TOC will make less money than the current structure, but under no circumstances will the TOC make more money. It follows that this is not something that the TOC would logically want.

If, on the other hand, a system was in place (and I'm just throwing this out there) that part of the value of an Advance could be used as part-credit towards a new purchase, then it would achieve benefits for both sides. The customer would be able to buy an Advance and would not write off the full spend if he missed his trains.

Full details (including conditions to prevent abuse such as that after departure the exchange can only be made at the origin station, and probably only for a few hours) as well as the exact percentage to apply would need to be worked out. As a guide, Irish Rail offers this at 80% credit up to 5pm the day before departure and 50% up to 90 minutes before departure.
 

Solent&Wessex

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Advance tickets are a very good product, and I have used them myself many times as they often work out cheaper than staff rate tickets. But, people must be prepared to follow the rules relating to the cheaper tickets.

The idea of charging less for a more restricted product is common in similar industries. Recently I wanted to book a hotel, and I looked at Holiday Inn (although this scenario is by no means unique to them). I could have booked 3 weeks in advance and got the cheapest rate, but it was non-refundable and non-changeable once booked. So if my plans changed I was stuck with having to pay. However, the flexible rate could be cancelled right up to check in time, and refunded with no fee or penalty, and could be altered at whim. This rate was more expensive than the cheapest rate. So if, as I suspected might happen, I was unable to attend for the first night I could cancel the flexible rate and get a refund, or loose my money on the cheapest rate. I had to assess which was the best option for me. Or I could have just booked the cheapest room I could find, then when they wouldn't give me a refund for the cancelled first night I could start screaming and shouting at the receptionist and calling her a jobsworth and whinge for her not using her discretion.

Now, back to the Railway example. I deal with advance tickets every single day, and like other staff on here I agree that 99% of all passengers use their tickets correctly without problem. However, there is a minority who do seem unable to catch the correct train.

There are myriad reasons for this - meeting finishing late / early; missed connection; plane arrived late / early; didn't read the conditions; read and ignored the conditions etc etc.

The problem with "discretion" is how do you fairly assess all the different excuses? I know colleagues who will just accept any advance ticket on any train as they are not bothered. Now this is fine, until the passenger next time gets on someone else's train and they will not. As it stands at the moment Advance tickets are valid only on the specified train, like it or not. TPE Airport Advance are valid up to 3 hours later if the plane is delayed, but this must be authorised by the airport station staff before boarding.

If someone claims to have been delayed on a previous train, then obviously the Advance ticket would be honoured later. But I always check it out - mainly because much of the time I hear "the last train was delayed" excuse it wasn't at all. Other reasons that I can verify I will accept tickets for - if there has been a major blockage or problem in the town centre which delayed people, or the metrolink is stopped, are all things you normally tend to find out about. I can't however verify if the bus was late, or whether your meeting finished early or late, nor whether the website didn't tell you, nor whether the bloke at the station where you brought your tickets didn't tell you etc etc. So, I'm afraid, in these circumstances it is a new ticket.

If, however, someone is travelling slightly earlier, or on a long journey where the new ticket might be unreasonable, I may well just charge the XS fare.

But why be so strict with Advance tickets?

Think of it this way. In general TOCs offer the cheaper Advance tickets in higher numbers on the less busy trains. It is designed to push budget conscious leisure travellers away from the busiest trains, and get lots of money from business passengers. If everyone would travel earlier or later without penalty "because the Guard should use his discretion", or even by just paying the XS fare, then those travelling at the busiest most expensive times will just buy all the cheap tickets at quieter times and travel when they fancy. You can bet your bottom dollar that not everyone will get charged an XS fare as the train may be too busy or not enough time for the Guard to get round. Thus, those leisure travellers who may only be travelling at quieter times when it is cheaper will not be able to buy the cheaper tickets as they have all been snaffled up by those travelling at busier times to save a few ££. They then may not travel at all as their journey is discretionary. The TOCs end up loosing revenue overall, then the Advance tickets are upped in price or reduced in number and everyone looses out.

Now, this doesn't mean to say I am against flexibility. I do believe that the Advance tickets should be valid for say, up to 1 hour after the booked train. But not any longer and certainly not earlier. This will allow for any last minute problems such as late buses, tubes, or anything else outside the control of the Railway, which we really shouldn't be bothered about. Outside of this 1 hour flexibility I don't think I'm too averse to passengers altering the ticket and using it later the same day, provided it is done at the booking office prior to boarding the train (usual disclaimers about ticket office being available apply). It should not, under any circumstances, be allowed to just get on and XS the fare on the train as this throws up too much revenue risk into the fray. Once on board the train - either earlier or later than the 1 hour window - then a new ticket must be purchased as no ticket were held at all.

I think this is a fair approach - it allows a bit of flexibility to those that need it, allows you to recognise the value of the ticket you have already purchased if needs be, but also punishes those that try and take the piddle. Which to be honest, is the only time you get issues on the train - when folk try and take the p*ss. Most people know the conditions, but then just ignore them.
 

jon0844

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Interesting you say you might excess someone travelling early. I'd have thought there was little to no justification for doing that. You might be delayed for any number of reasons, but early?
 

DaveNewcastle

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Why should it? It's not a bank note, it's a train ticket. A ticket that no longer even has any value to anybody.

Advance tickets are viable products only because they are restricted to a specific service, and this has to be enforced so that they are actually effective for 'demand management'.
I just wonder if you had read the OP's post and my own to posts (to which you've replied) thoroughly.

I specifically stated that the question has nothing to do with demand management; and that is clearly the case. The 'second ticket' is an Anytime ticket, and while the time of the journey might have been influenced by the availability of Advances, the actual journey using the Anytime may, instead be during a 'peak' - the effectiveness of 'demand management' is utterly void.

"Why should it?" (Why should the Advance carry a residual value)?
Because the TOC is, over the whole transaction, receiving £183 for a journey who's highest STD fare is £143. (And because the pax has paid £183 for it).
Advance tickets are a very good product, and I have used them myself many times as they often work out cheaper than staff rate tickets. But, people must be prepared to follow the rules relating to the cheaper tickets.
I like some of your conclusions and interpretation kwvr45, but just because I like them doesn't mean I agree!
I don't think there's anything about this question that implies pax aren't following the rules.
To be clear, the question is this: I hold a £40 Advance. I travel at a slightly different time (whether through mishap or whim is immaterial). I buy a replacement Anytime at £143.

Why is the Advance immediately worthless?

[The TOC has received 2 payments. The TOC has lost influence over the demand. The TOC is required to convey just one passenger journey. The passenger has not 'wasted anyone's time' with excuses or appeals or triggered a phone call to confirm any disruption.]
 
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cuccir

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This topic isn't about refunds, it's about people wanting to get later trains and, under the present system having to pay again (although as the system is so unfair many staff will be lenient)

Yes; people would still have to pay again, but their original ticket wouldn't loose value (the original question!) if it could be exchanged later for rail vouchers. It would allow TOCs to retain revenue, but customers would not be loosing out on the money that they have originally spent!

Under such a system, the pressure on guards to differentiate between genuine bad luck and chancers would be lower, as any customer would still get some value from their original ticket.
 

Solent&Wessex

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Interesting you say you might excess someone travelling early. I'd have thought there was little to no justification for doing that. You might be delayed for any number of reasons, but early?

Mainly airport passengers to be honest with the Airport Advance tickets. I understand that flights often arrive early or get rescheduled, or passengers book a lot later than needed just in case of airport delays. This mainly applies if the train isn't too busy in the first place.
 

Deerfold

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I just wonder if you had read the OP's post and my own to posts (to which you've replied) thoroughly.

I specifically stated that the question has nothing to do with demand management; and that is clearly the case. The 'second ticket' is an Anytime ticket, and while the time of the journey might have been influenced by the availability of Advances, the actual journey using the Anytime may, instead be during a 'peak' - the effectiveness of 'demand management' is utterly void.

"Why should it?" (Why should the Advance carry a residual value)?
Because the TOC is, over the whole transaction, receiving £183 for a journey who's highest STD fare is £143. (And because the pax has paid £183 for it).
I like some of your conclusions and interpretation kwvr45, but just because I like them doesn't mean I agree!
I don't think there's anything about this question that implies pax aren't following the rules.
To be clear, the question is this: I hold a £40 Advance. I travel at a slightly different time (whether through mishap or whim is immaterial). I buy a replacement Anytime at £143.

Why is the Advance immediately worthless?

But surely it *is* about demand management. If the passanger upgrades to an anytime ticket the ticket has not been used on the train the TOC wanted it to be - they could have sold that ticket to someone else who would have used it on that train. If you can just upgrade an advance everyone will buy advances and TOC's income will fall dramatically. Obviously eventually you'll run out of advances but the advances are likely to have been bought be buisness people travelling anyway and the leisure passenger is less likely to go for the full price tickets that are left.

[The TOC has received 2 payments. The TOC has lost influence over the demand.]

Precisely - and where's the benefit (to the TOC) of selling advances if the TOC can't control demand with them?
 

Solent&Wessex

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I like some of your conclusions and interpretation kwvr45, but just because I like them doesn't mean I agree!
I don't think there's anything about this question that implies pax aren't following the rules.
To be clear, the question is this: I hold a £40 Advance. I travel at a slightly different time (whether through mishap or whim is immaterial). I buy a replacement Anytime at £143.

Why is the Advance immediately worthless?

[The TOC has received 2 payments. The TOC has lost influence over the demand. The TOC is required to convey just one passenger journey. The passenger has not 'wasted anyone's time' with excuses or appeals or triggered a phone call to confirm any disruption.]

I did say that I thought there should be some ability to amend and get some value from the ticket after the departure time. As it stands now the ticket can be Excessed up to the next cheapest fare prior to the departure time stated on the ticket. If you change it prior to boarding, if you wish to travel earlier than scheduled, you only pay an XS fare, and still receive some value from the original ticket. The main issue, probably, is when people board the train when there was the opportunity to buy before boarding, and then get chinged for the full fare again. To be honest, I have no problem with this. If there was no opportunity to buy before boarding then the ticket can be excessed up to the cheapest fare valid for immediate travel, plus the admin fee, on board the train (as detailed in the Excess fare rules in the Fares Manual).

So that sorts out the issue of people travelling earlier than booked.

I did mention what should happen if people travel later than booked:

Now, this doesn't mean to say I am against flexibility. I do believe that the Advance tickets should be valid for say, up to 1 hour after the booked train. But not any longer and certainly not earlier. This will allow for any last minute problems such as late buses, tubes, or anything else outside the control of the Railway, which we really shouldn't be bothered about. Outside of this 1 hour flexibility I don't think I'm too averse to passengers altering the ticket and using it later the same day, provided it is done at the booking office prior to boarding the train (usual disclaimers about ticket office being available apply). It should not, under any circumstances, be allowed to just get on and XS the fare on the train as this throws up too much revenue risk into the fray. Once on board the train - either earlier or later than the 1 hour window - then a new ticket must be purchased as no ticket were held at all.

I think this is a fair approach - it allows a bit of flexibility to those that need it, allows you to recognise the value of the ticket you have already purchased if needs be, but also punishes those that try and take the piddle. Which to be honest, is the only time you get issues on the train - when folk try and take the p*ss. Most people know the conditions, but then just ignore them.

So in summary my view is this:

Travelling Earlier than booked:
At the ticket office - Pay the difference between the ticket held and the cheapest fare available for immediate travel, plus the £10 admin fee.

On the train- If there was opportunity to buy before boarding - Pay the full fare for the journey as if no ticket were held.
If there was no opportunity to buy before boarding - Pay the difference between the ticket held and the cheapest fare available for immediate travel, plus the £10 admin fee.

Travelling Later than booked:
Up to 1 hour later than booked - travel without additional charge.

More than 1 hour later than booked, but on the same day -
At the ticket office -Pay the difference between the ticket held and the cheapest fare available for immediate travel, plus the £10 admin fee. ***

On the train - If there was opportunity to buy before boarding - Pay the full fare for the journey as if no ticket were held.
If there was no opportunity to buy before boarding - Pay the difference between the ticket held and the cheapest fare available for immediate travel, plus the £10 admin fee.***


*** - The admin fee is open to debate, I would probably see different scales of fee in this case depending on the original fare paid, or line of route.
 

passmore

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Yes, it's fair. What do you mean by 'fair' in this case though?

Is paying a substantial less amount than any other type of ticket but you're limited to that particular train at that particular time 'fair'?

Is not understanding the conditions associated with the ticket and then boarding a later/earlier train 'fair'?

In my case, I've had a couple of experiences with the latter. I've accidentally boarded a later/earlier train and then duly chastised by the on-train manager. I've then had to pay for a full single fare to my destination. It was a genuine exchange of polite discussion with the chap who accepted my apology but I don't agree that the decision to charge me full fare was 'unfair'. I misread the conditions associated with an Advance ticket and I made the mistake of making my ticket 'worthless'.

As I've said on the other thread, we have one of the most complex ticketing systems in Europe and the conditions attached to Advance tickets seem pretty rigid. But it's really up to the end user whether or not the ticket has any real value. If you pay for a cheap train ticket in this country, you have to be content with that specific train you've booked on. Misreading the conditions is not an excuse to start saying that the Advance ticket is suddenly unfair.
 

DaveNewcastle

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Is not understanding the conditions associated with the ticket and then boarding a later/earlier train 'fair'?

. . . . .

Misreading the conditions is not an excuse to start saying that the Advance ticket is suddenly unfair.
I don't know where the 'not understanding' or 'misreading the conditions' comes from. I hope it certainly has not come from me!

If I'm standing at Kings Cross waiting for the 19:00 departure with an advance, and I bump into a colleague on the concourse who has an Advance for the 18:30 departure (which happens with mysterious regularity!), we could decide to travel together. To do so, one of us will pay £143 for an Anytime. (Whether we have the time or inclination to go to the Ticket Office or to ask the Guard on-board would depend on the circumstances).

This is not 'misreading' anything and not 'misunderstanding' anything. The question is, can we 'recover' any of the value from one of the Advances which is not required in addition to the Anytime?

I think kwvr45 has given us a helpful analysis. Thank you.
 

passmore

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I'm simply adding my experience of Advance tickets and my opinion of the conditions to the debate which I'm perfectly entitled to do. If you feel that's irrelevant, then that's your opinion.
 

dzug2

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If I'm standing at Kings Cross waiting for the 19:00 departure with an advance, and I bump into a colleague on the concourse who has an Advance for the 18:30 departure (which happens with mysterious regularity!), we could decide to travel together. To do so, one of us will pay £143 for an Anytime. (Whether we have the time or inclination to go to the Ticket Office or to ask the Guard on-board would depend on the circumstances).

This is not 'misreading' anything and not 'misunderstanding' anything. The question is, can we 'recover' any of the value from one of the Advances which is not required in addition to the Anytime?

Thank you.

I think you can - by going to the ticket office (before 1830) the one with the 1830 ticket can get the price of his advance (less a £10 fee) creditted against the cost of the anytime ticket on the 1900
 

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I think you can - by going to the ticket office (before 1830) the one with the 1830 ticket can get the price of his advance (less a £10 fee) creditted against the cost of the anytime ticket on the 1900

This is correct. You can amend the date and time of travel (even if it's for a walk-on fare), and you'll pay the difference in fares, plus a £10 admin fee.
 

Solent&Wessex

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This is correct. You can amend the date and time of travel (even if it's for a walk-on fare), and you'll pay the difference in fares, plus a £10 admin fee.

But even if choosing to travel earlier, lots of people choose not to do this, hoping they will get away with it by moaning or blaming it on the bloke on the platform, and just get on the train regardless. They then, when asked to pay a full fare again, get in a strop and claim how unfair it is.
 

AlterEgo

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But even if choosing to travel earlier, lots of people choose not to do this, hoping they will get away with it by moaning or blaming it on the bloke on the platform, and just get on the train regardless. They then, when asked to pay a full fare again, get in a strop and claim how unfair it is.

Quite!
 

passmore

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But even if choosing to travel earlier, lots of people choose not to do this, hoping they will get away with it by moaning or blaming it on the bloke on the platform, and just get on the train regardless. They then, when asked to pay a full fare again, get in a strop and claim how unfair it is.

Exactly so, kwvr45, it's the passenger's actions at the end of the day that makes the ticket worthless or not.
 

jon0844

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Mainly airport passengers to be honest with the Airport Advance tickets..

Ah, fair enough. I guess they're dealt with slightly differently and why they're specifically sold as 'airport' advance tickets to cope with delays that are outside the control of the passenger (and railway).
 

yorkie

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Exactly so, kwvr45, it's the passenger's actions at the end of the day that makes the ticket worthless or not.
So if I'm on the tube and someone commits suicide causing a 1 hour delay, that's my actions is it? Interesting! I think we'll have to agree to disagree on that.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Is paying a substantial less amount than any other type of ticket but you're limited to that particular train at that particular time 'fair'?
What about the person who paid £97 (thread here), when an Anytime is £116, and missed the train, what is fair then? Virgin bent the rules and charged him a total of £126, and that seems fair, but are you suggesting that is unfair and £213 is fair?

Charging £223 is Watchdog material and Virgin know it.
 

sheff1

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I think kwvr45's analysis is very useful. Only one thing I would quibble with, and that is with buses (or trams!) being late.

If I catch a First bus to connect with a First train and the bus is late, that reason is discounted when I miss the train on which my Advance ticket is booked, yet the service is operated by different parts of the same Group. Conversely, if my connecting plane operated by British Airways is late, that is accepted as a reason for using a later train with my Advance ticket even though BA has nothing to do with First Group.

Of course if kwvr45's suggestion of Advances being accepted up to hour after the booked train was in place then this anomaly would virtually disappear as it is highly unlikely that a bus would be an hour late unless there had been a major incident.

This then reminded me of a suggestion I saw (not sure where) when Virgin introduced their 20 min frequency to Brimingham & Manchester - that, rather than be only valid on one train, an Advance ticket would specify an hour in which it could be used e.g 1100-1200 inclusive which would offer departures at say 1100, 1120, 1140 or 1200. This, it was felt, would enhance the appeal of the high frequency service but clearly nothing along these lines emerged.
 

passmore

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So if I'm on the tube and someone commits suicide causing a 1 hour delay, that's my actions is it? Interesting! I think we'll have to agree to disagree on that.

Hi Yorkie

I'm not sure I can see the relevance to your reference to a suicide on the tube. I was merely saying that a passenger's attitude to being confronted about trying to board/boarding the wrong train on an Advance ticket is what, IMO, is what makes the ticket either worthless or worthwhile.
For example, in my case, as it was my first time using an Advance ticket, the guard was very professional and explained to me the conditions associated with the ticket. I still had to pay full fare though. Now if that was someone else and they got into a strop over boarding the wrong train, it to me, makes the ticket worthless because the passenger clearly wanted to travel earlier on a cheaper fare.
Perhaps 'action' was the wrong word then.
 

yorkie

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OK, I think you mean attitude rather than actions. But in your example, if you were charged a "full fare" then that meant your ticket is "worthless" too?

Are you suggesting that people who are polite should pay less than someone who gets into a strop? I don't have a problem with that although I don't think you could have that in the rules, although customer actions can influence the guard's decision to apply discretion. In which case, this often happens anyway as many guards will be more lenient if customers are acting reasonably and honestly.
 

passmore

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Joined
21 Mar 2011
Messages
341
Location
Milton Keynes
Sorry but I don't understand. If you were charged a "full fare" then that meant your ticket is "worthless", so how are the scenarios different?

Are you suggesting that people who are polite should pay less than someone who gets into a strop? I don't have a problem with that although I don't think you could have that in the rules, although customer actions can influence the guard's decision to apply discretion. In which case, this often happens anyway as many guards will be more lenient if customers are acting reasonably and honestly.

That time, on that journey, it was worthless. I learnt my lesson the next time and I did read the conditions and I did board the right train.
 
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