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Is it fair that Advance tickets have no value when the train is missed?

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Flying Snail

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Exactly! Maybe 20%.

Why should people that are stuck with last minute travel and those who need flexibility be even more penalised? You seem to want to add yet another layer of complexity into a ticketing system that is already incredibly complicated and confusing to average passengers.

One of the main reasons Advance fares were introduced is because they allow the rail companies to even out demand to a certain extent by offering cheaper travel on quieter services. What you seem to want is an extra discount on open tickets just because you can buy a day early, all this will do is increase the numbers buying these tickets to use on busier services.
 
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Minilad

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The point is that its not always the passengers fault that they miss the train they are supposed to get. How is it fair to penalise them when it wasn't their fault?

It's not always the railways fault either. When it is the ticket is valid for use on the next service.
If it's not the railways fault then why should they have any come back. If I miss a concert or a show or a sports event and it was my fault would I get a refund ? probably not.
If you don't want the conditions don't buy the ticket
 

WelshBluebird

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It's not always the railways fault either. When it is the ticket is valid for use on the next service.
If it's not the railways fault then why should they have any come back. If I miss a concert or a show or a sports event and it was my fault would I get a refund ? probably not.
If you don't want the conditions don't buy the ticket

Except even when it is the railways fault they will still try to wriggle out of it (in my experience).
And I think it is madness that it can be say Firsts fault I am late (bus), yet First (train) won't accept that as a valid reason for missing my train. I know they are technically seperate companies, but they are both owned by FirstGroup and really should work together more IMO.
I realise that too many people try to cheat the system, which is why the restrictions are so strict, but I still think there should be more discretion when it really isn't the passengers fault at all. And to be fair, sometimes guards / train managers are more than understanding if its clear you are being totally genuine.
 

DaveNewcastle

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What I don't get is what would be the harm in just excessing an invalid advance up to the appropriate anytime single for the passengers journey? As to me it seems that one of the things that really gets on the passengers nerves (or at least it would be the main thing that annoyed me) in this situation is being forced to buy an entirely new ticket rather than being able to 'upgrade' to a valid ticket. I don't see the harm in doing that is as the TOC still protects it's revenue and the passenger is perhaps slightly less irritated at the situation.
I agree too.
It does seem to be perverse that an Advance immediately becomes worthless.

As some on here know, my most frequent journey is Newcastle-London, and I can often take advantage of Advance offerings. Typically around £40 Advance against £143 Anytime.
If I'm unable to travel on the exact train booked, whether through 'fault' or choice, I don't expecting any 'discretion', and don't expect to travel on another service without some cost, but to find that my Advance is worthless when buying a replacement at walk-up prices is unnecessarily hurtful.
Quite unnecessary, and is nothing at all to do with managing demand or avoiding abuse by 'dodgers'.
 

SS4

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It's not always the railways fault either. When it is the ticket is valid for use on the next service.
If it's not the railways fault then why should they have any come back. If I miss a concert or a show or a sports event and it was my fault would I get a refund ? probably not.
If you don't want the conditions don't buy the ticket

Exactly. There seems to be a disproportionate amount of fuss kicked up by those who are caught out, in addition it doesn't help that the popular media aren't friendly to the railways and will entertain such ludicrous stories.

I don't buy this argument about other modes of transport (except the first service of the day), if you know you have an advance ticket then leave earlier and ensure you're on time.
 
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What I don't get is what would be the harm in just excessing an invalid advance up to the appropriate anytime single for the passengers journey? As to me it seems that one of the things that really gets on the passengers nerves (or at least it would be the main thing that annoyed me) in this situation is being forced to buy an entirely new ticket rather than being able to 'upgrade' to a valid ticket. I don't see the harm in doing that is as the TOC still protects it's revenue and the passenger is perhaps slightly less irritated at the situation.

Problem with this is many companies expense departments may just buy advance tickets for their employees who are travelling at peak times knowing that there is no further penalty if they dont catch the said service, as they can just tell their staff to upgrade and claim it back. It will cost the company no more than it would just buying an anytime rtn. They could say make every effort to get the train but dont worry if you dont. This over the course of a year would be a big saving, but for the TOC (especially IC tocs) could prove quite a big loss.
 

WelshBluebird

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I don't buy this argument about other modes of transport (except the first service of the day), if you know you have an advance ticket then leave earlier and ensure you're on time.

Not always possible.
Some people have jobs and so can't leave before a certain time.
Some people live in areas where the bus service is very infrequent (so can only get a certain bus).
Some people end up have huge delays because of road accidents (which can never be predicted).
Etc etc.

Its easy to say "ensure you are on time", but its much harder to actually do.
You really can't predict some delays. I've had a 15 minute bus journey take 90 minutes before because of traffic / accidents. You simply can't expect people to factor in that kind of possible delay into their plans.

In my experience there is quite a bit of discretion shown by TMs when they feel there is a genuine problem.

And at the same time I have been threatened with numerous things (penalty fares, being charged for the full single fare, court action, being kicked off etc etc) because I was on a later train because of delays caused by the railway and so shouldn't be an issue.
I agree that most railway staff are more than helpful. But some are not.

Personally, I quite like the idea of having an "advance" fare that lies somewhere between the walk up fare and the advance fare (in terms of both price and restrictions).
 

Flamingo

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:roll: Well I'm sure all these people are going to be rushing to travel by train again...

In view of the sh*t that a large proportion of them come out with and hassle they cause when it's pointed out to them that they have broken the (very simple and straightforward) terms of their contract that gives them a discount on their ticket, I for one can live without them.

I much prefer to be able to walk through a train, clipping correct tickets, saying "Thank you" and moving on.

The sick feeling in my gut when I know that I am going to have to spend the next five to ten minutes arguing with some muppet who can't get their life together, and the probable abuse and/or assault (both verbal or physical) from some of the individuals that know all their entitlements and none of their responsibilities, has to be experienced on a daily basis to be believed.

So if being made to discover that they have responsibilities means that they go and catch a bus next time, well, I'm not losing ANY sleep over it.

Customers like those I can do without.

Problem with this is many companies expense departments may just buy advance tickets for their employees who are travelling at peak times knowing that there is no further penalty if they dont catch the said service, as they can just tell their staff to upgrade and claim it back. It will cost the company no more than it would just buying an anytime rtn. They could say make every effort to get the train but dont worry if you dont. This over the course of a year would be a big saving, but for the TOC (especially IC tocs) could prove quite a big loss.

As I have said before now to passengers who said "My firm bought it, it's nothing to do with me", "Why should my company subsidise your company?"
 

Essexman

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I travel quite a lot on business and tend to get an Advance is there is a reasonably priced first class fare available, if not I buy a standard return.

I accept that this means I quite often have to wait around after a meeting for my booked train back and occasionally I will miss the train or arrangements will be changed at the last minute, hence I'll lose the money for the ticket. It's a risk you take. If you buy a non flexible plane ticket you don't expect to get a refund if used or upgraded and its the same for train.

The media however are always looking for things to have ago at railways for, even if just the same practice is normal on planes. (in the same way that when comparing fares they choose the cheapest flight & most expensive rail fare).

So yes, in my view you take a bit of a risk with an Advance and occasionally lose out but you know the risk.

However if a train is missed due to delays on an earlier journey, underground etc, I'd expect the Train Manager to be flexible. Also if the outward train was very late, giving me less time for a meeting, I'd expect to be permitted to use my return on a later train.
 

Yew

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Personally, I quite like the idea of having an "advance" fare that lies somewhere between the walk up fare and the advance fare (in terms of both price and restrictions).


A Multiple service supplement, say 5-10 quid extra, and it is usable on 2/3 services?
 

Flamingo

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Indeed, that's a major flaw with the system.

I'll give Virgin some credit here; they sell Off Peak Singles (SVH) at half the price of the Off Peak Return (SVR) when sold online in combination with an Advance ticket in the opposite direction. If all TOCs participated in such a scheme, and if all booking sites offered them, this would go a very long way to ensure no customers are ripped off.

FGW off-peak or super-offpeak singles are about 60% of the return
 

Zoe

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FGW off-peak or super-offpeak singles are about 60% of the return
And unlike Virgin's offer, they are just singles and don't have to be used for a return journey where the other half is booked in advance.
 

Flamingo

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My point is that mistakes can happen, incorrect advice can be given out. There is such a thing as dicretion, a word which some guards don't seem to understand. I'm not saying it's correct in all cases but guards can come down very hard on passengers - it's hard for 'expert' people such as ourselves to understand the rules, so how is the average passenger supposed to cope? And the whole culture of calling customer stupid behind their backs is, all in all, a bit unprofessional.

Discretion means the freedom to decide what should be done in a particular case, and whether it is appropriate to disregard the rules in that situation. Lots of guards understand the meaning of it. However, the passenger has to give an explanation that means the guard is convinced that in that circumstance it is appropriate to disregard the rules.

Discretion does NOT mean that anyone who is on the wrong train is automatically let off, which is a misconception a lot of people seem to have.

And I don't call passengers stupid behind their backs - if warranted, I call them stupid to their faces.
 

Ze Random One

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Actually, what I have never found clear is what the comeback is if you have an AP ticket which is routed with a maltese cross (for tube transfer) or which is valid on light rail (for example T&W metro Sunderland - Newcastle) or a specific connecting bus?

Take for example:
You're on your way from Peterborough to Bristol, with your five year old son. It's a Sunday so the Circle line is closed for engineering works. You get to King's Cross, a few minutes late, get on the Victoria line, and get off at Oxford Circus. It's taken you a little longer than normal because your son seems insistent on stopping to look at everything and ask difficult questions, but that's OK, the journey planner allows 60 minutes for the transfer, and you've only used 20. You get to the Bakerloo platform. The indicator seems to have gone a bit haywire, but that's not that unusual. The platform is getting rather full. Eventually a train crawls into the platform, and you squeeze on. You're now 27 minutes into your transfer time. Driver comes on the PA: "I'm sorry Ladies and Gentlemen, this train is terminating here, and the line is suspended due to a signal failure at Edgeware Road". Collective groan and everyone squeezes off the train. It takes you a few minutes to get up the escalator, to find that your National Rail ticket won't operate the barriers, and have to queue for the now heavily inundated "assistance". About 40 people are trying to peer at the bus map, but eventually you discover that you need a 7, 23 or 159 from stop OQ, and make your way up to the bus stop with 200 other souls trying to go to that quarter of West London. 45 Minutes of your connection time have now passed. You couldn't get on the first three buses because they were too full. You tried to get on the fourth, but the driver said "you can't use that on a bus, mate" when examining the ticket, and stopped listening when you said the Bakerloo was off. When you tried to buy a ticket, the driver said "you've gotta get them from that machine" pointing at the pavement. The fifth bus let you on, but by now over an hour has elapsed since your scheduled arrival time at King's Cross. It takes 20 minutes on the bus to Paddington. By the time you get there, your Bristol train has passed Slough.

Now you can't plan for that, particularly because you have attempted to travel on the two trains for which you have a reservation. But it was not the "Railway's fault" that you were delayed, for the "service" was provided by TfL. How do you stand? If that was any other form of consumer contract, I would suggest regardless that the "railway" has outsourced their contract with you to a third party (TfL), they are still liable to deliver the contracted service despite the third party's failure to perform. From a railway perspective, would you agree with my assessment?

I would suggest that the same should apply to other light rail and bus connections where through tickets are purchased, would you also agree?

Finally, and this is the trickiest one, what happens if you are using the National Rail CoC Rule 19 (Combination of Tickets) with a PTE or TfL multimodal ticket which is valid on National Rail, AND the connection is shown in the NR Online Journey Planner (e.g. You are travelling from Sunderland to Edinburgh, and you use your existing PTE ticket to travel from Sunderland to Newcastle, which is shown in the Journey Planner as travelling on T&W Metro and changing at Newcastle). What if the Metro service fails? Do you have a comeback?
 

SS4

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Not always possible.
Some people have jobs and so can't leave before a certain time.

Book a later train

Some people live in areas where the bus service is very infrequent (so can only get a certain bus).

I'll concede that point.

Some people end up have huge delays because of road accidents (which can never be predicted).
Etc etc.

Do we really need a national ruling on localised issues. In a case like this I would hope the guard would use his or her discretion

Its easy to say "ensure you are on time", but its much harder to actually do.
You really can't predict some delays. I've had a 15 minute bus journey take 90 minutes before because of traffic / accidents. You simply can't expect people to factor in that kind of possible delay into their plans.

I've had a 25 minute bus journey take 60. However, I left enough slack time to catch my train



Personally, I quite like the idea of having an "advance" fare that lies somewhere between the walk up fare and the advance fare (in terms of both price and restrictions).

An advance+ allowing travel on either the previous service or the next one wouldn't be a bad idea although of course it would only be possible to reserve seats on the booked train
 

VTFan1980

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Ive never been caught out by this before and wouldnt like to be "punished" by the removal of Advance fares in order to simplify ticket restrictions. Its a hard line to call but I think the train cos are a bit strict when it comes to charging full whack...
 

LNW-GW Joint

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Why should people that are stuck with last minute travel and those who need flexibility be even more penalised? You seem to want to add yet another layer of complexity into a ticketing system that is already incredibly complicated and confusing to average passengers.

One of the main reasons Advance fares were introduced is because they allow the rail companies to even out demand to a certain extent by offering cheaper travel on quieter services. What you seem to want is an extra discount on open tickets just because you can buy a day early, all this will do is increase the numbers buying these tickets to use on busier services.

I wasn't really thinking about open tickets, just off peak ones.
Perhaps another option at a price between the current Advance and OP fare would be to fix the outward journey and allow the return to be flexed within the off-peak slot - that would suit a lot of people and earn a premium for the TOC.

Thinking about the difference between advance and walk-up fares, it's worth noting that SNCF sell their TGVs as all-reserved, with variable fares right up to departure depending on demand (ie you can buy a discounted fare on the day at a TVM if there is space). The "day-before" limitation here is because ATOC haven't got an advanced reservation system.
 

bb21

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Perhaps another option at a price between the current Advance and OP fare would be to fix the outward journey and allow the return to be flexed within the off-peak slot - that would suit a lot of people and earn a premium for the TOC.

Hmm. Virgin's Saver Half fares.
 

yorkie

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FGW price Singles fairly reasonably, as do Grand Central and Hull Trains. Northern can be fairly reasonable but it depends on the flow. Sadly many TOCs are unreasonable and charge singles at 10p to £1 less than the return then have an AP product only a few quid less than that, meaning some people end up paying far more than they would have on the day!!!
 

MikeWh

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Actually, what I have never found clear is what the comeback is if you have an AP ticket which is routed with a maltese cross (for tube transfer) or which is valid on light rail (for example T&W metro Sunderland - Newcastle) or a specific connecting bus?

Take for example:
You're on your way from Peterborough to Bristol, with your five year old son. It's a Sunday so the Circle line is closed for engineering works. You get to King's Cross, a few minutes late, get on the Victoria line, and get off at Oxford Circus. It's taken you a little longer than normal because your son seems insistent on stopping to look at everything and ask difficult questions, but that's OK, the journey planner allows 60 minutes for the transfer, and you've only used 20. You get to the Bakerloo platform. The indicator seems to have gone a bit haywire, but that's not that unusual. The platform is getting rather full. Eventually a train crawls into the platform, and you squeeze on. You're now 27 minutes into your transfer time. Driver comes on the PA: "I'm sorry Ladies and Gentlemen, this train is terminating here, and the line is suspended due to a signal failure at Edgeware Road". Collective groan and everyone squeezes off the train. It takes you a few minutes to get up the escalator, to find that your National Rail ticket won't operate the barriers, and have to queue for the now heavily inundated "assistance". About 40 people are trying to peer at the bus map, but eventually you discover that you need a 7, 23 or 159 from stop OQ, and make your way up to the bus stop with 200 other souls trying to go to that quarter of West London. 45 Minutes of your connection time have now passed. You couldn't get on the first three buses because they were too full. You tried to get on the fourth, but the driver said "you can't use that on a bus, mate" when examining the ticket, and stopped listening when you said the Bakerloo was off. When you tried to buy a ticket, the driver said "you've gotta get them from that machine" pointing at the pavement. The fifth bus let you on, but by now over an hour has elapsed since your scheduled arrival time at King's Cross. It takes 20 minutes on the bus to Paddington. By the time you get there, your Bristol train has passed Slough.

Now you can't plan for that, particularly because you have attempted to travel on the two trains for which you have a reservation. But it was not the "Railway's fault" that you were delayed, for the "service" was provided by TfL. How do you stand? If that was any other form of consumer contract, I would suggest regardless that the "railway" has outsourced their contract with you to a third party (TfL), they are still liable to deliver the contracted service despite the third party's failure to perform. From a railway perspective, would you agree with my assessment?

I would suggest that the same should apply to other light rail and bus connections where through tickets are purchased, would you also agree?

First off, that was one hell of a cross London transfer. I've been there (though not in the middle of an advance journey) and I sympathise entirely. And yes, if the ticket includes travel with other operators then you are covered because as you say, the service provision has been sub contracted. In your specific example I would expect no problems on the next NR train, especially if you managed to get an endorsement from Underground staff or asked staff at Paddington to verify with TfL before boarding the train. And I'd write to TfL claiming back the bus fare which shouldn't have been charged in the circumstances.

Finally, and this is the trickiest one, what happens if you are using the National Rail CoC Rule 19 (Combination of Tickets) with a PTE or TfL multimodal ticket which is valid on National Rail, AND the connection is shown in the NR Online Journey Planner (e.g. You are travelling from Sunderland to Edinburgh, and you use your existing PTE ticket to travel from Sunderland to Newcastle, which is shown in the Journey Planner as travelling on T&W Metro and changing at Newcastle). What if the Metro service fails? Do you have a comeback?

I'm not sure what you're asking here. Is it one ticket or two? Are they purchased at the same time from the same company? Is there an itinery available for the whole journey? If the last one is yes and you'd followed the suggested times then I'd say that you should be ok. Again I'd get the ticket endorsed before boarding the later train because the train crew are not so easily able to verify the problems.
 

Ivo

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Except even when it is the railways fault they will still try to wriggle out of it (in my experience).
And I think it is madness that it can be say Firsts fault I am late (bus), yet First (train) won't accept that as a valid reason for missing my train. I know they are technically seperate companies, but they are both owned by FirstGroup and really should work together more IMO.
I realise that too many people try to cheat the system, which is why the restrictions are so strict, but I still think there should be more discretion when it really isn't the passengers fault at all. And to be fair, sometimes guards / train managers are more than understanding if its clear you are being totally genuine.

Go to the bus station and complain there! :lol:

Believe me, it works. And if they aren't interested, say that you know of someone who has put them through exactly this...
 

tony_mac

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I do find it a bit odd that transpennine do allow some flexibility (up to three hours later) on their advance tickets - but only if you are travelling from an airport.

Perhaps they will realise, at some point, that other passengers would also like some flexibility to deal with delays outside their control without the 'ching ching' ....
 

sheff1

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When anyone purchases any ticket they come with terms and conditions.
If you don't like the terms and conditions of the ticket then don't buy it. Simple really.
The cheaper the ticket then the more restrictions placed upon it. Trouble is people seem to want these cheap fares but don't want the restrictions they carry with them

If only this (which seems to be a standard response from some rail staff) were true. But as I have already pointed out, backed up with a specific example, things are not that simple. People using this argument are either misinformed or are deliberately ignoring the truth of the matter.

Of course that doesn't alter the fact that, if you do actually purchase more expensive, but more restricted, tickets, you are still bound by the T&Cs and restrictions of the tickets you have bought.
 

AlterEgo

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Of course that doesn't alter the fact that, if you do actually purchase more expensive, but more restricted, tickets, you are still bound by the T&Cs and restrictions of the tickets you have bought.

Then buy the cheaper unrestricted ticket. Or don't buy a ticket at all. Or, buy the ticket and stick to the conditions.
 

jon0844

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Discretion is fine, but when I came back from Wales on FGW - the TM 'caught' someone who was travelling over two hours EARLY. After much arguing, he was let off which surprised me, as I'd have thought the TM would have gone for him once an argument started! He wasn't going all the way to London though (Port Talbot to Cardiff) so maybe it wasn't considered worth the effort.

If you take an earlier train, I think there should be no discretion at all. Otherwise you'd book a cheap train at the end of the day (when it's likely cheaper anyway) and travel earlier - giving yourself total flexibility and no need to hang around. The only exception would be travelling somewhere, finding your meeting is cancelled or you're suddenly called back for an emergency - but you'd go and get your ticket changed at a ticket office before boarding.

Now if you're one or two trains late and can perhaps produce some evidence of being delayed (e.g. by a local bus that didn't run, or a taxi that broke down on the motorway) then that's where discretion can come in. However, you should perhaps seek out a member of staff on the train to make yourself known and explain the circumstances. This isn't the same as not being able to buy a ticket, where you don't HAVE to seek a member of staff - but must still buy a ticket at some point during your journey and not just walk out at the end if you've managed to avoid being approached.

It's unfair to say that people should account for every possible disaster. There are minimum connection times for changing trains, so I'd expect some leniency to be shown if you've used other modes of transport (e.g. a bus) and can prove you didn't leave it to the last minute. I'd probably take one bus before the one I could take, to allow for a small delay, but wouldn't take two or three buses early (in my case, they run every 30 minutes) in case it broke down, crashed or the driver called in sick and it was cancelled - as that would mean potentially doubling my overall journey time, and leaving me hanging around on a platform when things DON'T go wrong - which is more likely given delays and disruptions are still fairly uncommon.
 

sheff1

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Then buy the cheaper unrestricted ticket. Or don't buy a ticket at all. Or, buy the ticket and stick to the conditions.

Of course these are the options... ???

The key point, which you did not quote, is that blanket statements along the lines of 'the cheaper the ticket the more restrictions' are 100% incorrect.
 

SS4

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Of course these are the options... ???

The key point, which you did not quote, is that blanket statements along the lines of 'the cheaper the ticket the more restrictions' are 100% incorrect.

100% incorrect? So Advance tickets (I'm sure we all agree these have the most restrictions) are always more expensive than Off-Peak and Anytime?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
The cheaper the ticket the more restrictions isn't true 100% of the time but it holds in a majority of cases
 
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