LNER to pilot removal of Off-Peak tickets

[Bletchleyite]

It’s a time-limited ticket with a little flexibility, I don’t see how it’s so different to an ‘advance plus,’ and shows that such tickets can be implemented.

It's near enough the same as what LNER has done, but with a different window. It's not a choice of any 3 trains you like on that day, which is what was being proposed here and I was replying to.

Obviously, they can’t do it on IC trains or above due to compulsory reservations, but we don’t have that problem here in the UK…

LNER clearly want to go that way.

 

[stephy]

So a midweek, what should be 'off peak' journey is showing at £133 for a single. Wtf? That's a huge increase.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It would have been far better to have just a fixed and anytime tickets with fee free amendments on the fixed ticket via the app/office.

I wouldn't like that either particularly, but yes, just going Anytime/Advance with the admin fee binned (as nobody is actually doing any admin) would certainly be simpler and more flexible.

So a midweek, what should be 'off peak' journey is showing at £133 for a single. Wtf? That's a huge increase.

Yep, that's the exact reason this is being done. To remove the Super Off Peak cap and so increase fares significantly.

 

[Watershed]

My general view would be that it means "on a Permitted Route", i.e. not going the wrong way, doubling back etc. However it does appear that brfares.com link above contains a load of unpublished restrictions that seem to block specific trains entirely for some reason I don't entirely understand. Presumably those are known busy trains where Advances wouldn't normally be released at all?

The timings and a quick look on LNER's journey planner make it crystal clear what the unpublished restrictions are there for. It's to prevent the Flex tickets being sold for the most popular (shoulder) peak services, as it would otherwise make it too easy for people to undercut the Advance on more expensive trains.

Of course it's impossible to completely close down the 'loophole' this introduces. For example, under the new system, the cheapest way to travel on the 05:40 from Edinburgh to Kings Cross is to buy a Flex ticket for the 05:48. Only LNER would have the chutzpah to claim this is "simpler"!

Image of LNER booking site showing an Advance for the 05:40 Edinburgh-Kings Cross costing £128.70 and a 70min Flex for the 05:48 costing £79.50

 

[stephy]

My mistake - that previous price was for an 'advance single'. But I'm sure I booked it pretty soon before I travelled?

 

[jon81uk]

It would have been far better to have just a fixed and anytime tickets with fee free amendments on the fixed ticket via the app/office.

Thats exactly what the flexible ticket option is, fee free amendments to a train within 70 minutes of the booked one.

 

[stephy]

Advance singles don't appear to exist anymore?
This is pricing me off this journey.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Thats exactly what the flexible ticket option is, fee free amendments to a train within 70 minutes of the booked one.

I think the OP was suggesting binning the £10 admin fee for changing an Advance to any date/time, so only the fare difference would be paid. I'd prefer that over this 70 minute nonsense.

Advance singles don't appear to exist anymore?
This is pricing me off this journey.

They're called "Fixed". That's dead simple too, right? Er, no, they're not fixed, they're changeable

 

[stephy]

Two flights for my preferred dates are about £60 total. So both ways. This is madness. How can this be allowed? How can they just hike the prices up like this?

 

[bakerstreet]

As oppose to the LNER view

Fares reform is about making it simpler, not more expensive. Happy to connect and discuss how you can find cheaper Advance tickets.

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1. Presumably this means that NO long distance fares under the planned system are now ‘regulated’?
2. It means that prices can rise closer and closer to the Anytime and surpass it
3. The tickets provide NO validity on any other operator
4. There is no break of journey allowed, except in Anytime
5. The non-Anytime tickets can now all be witheld, limited or entirely removed from sale, at any point, leaving only the Anytime fares available
5. The single fare ‘pilot’ appears to be a cynical pathway for this shambles and not a pilot for single fare pricing.

I’m really trying to see any benefit from this.

This is incredibly disappointing. Anti passenger. Pro airline. Pro driving. Pro staying at home.

Worse, it’s being mis-sold as to its ‘benefits’

 

[Bletchleyite]

Two flights for my preferred dates are about £60 total. So both ways. This is madness. How can this be allowed? How can they just hike the prices up like this?

HMG want to reduce the rail subsidy, in this case by increasing fares.

I'd fly...

 

[stephy]

Well there seems to be a glitch. I've input my originating station (a Thameslink north one) and my destination as Edinburgh and all that is coming up is Anytimes. So I can't buy fixed or off peak or anything anymore?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Well there seems to be a glitch. I've input my originating station (a Thameslink north one) and my destination as Edinburgh and all that is coming up is Anytimes. So I can't buy fixed or off peak or anything anymore?

Is your journey too far in advance for Advances to have been released?

Give it a go in the Forum's site, they might show you a useful split. Or buy a ticket to Haymarket instead.

I just tried for Luton by the way (for 5th Feb so into the new pricing scheme) and that still has Super Off Peaks to Edinburgh.

 

[stephy]

Nope. It's next week.
There's definitely a glitch as Lumo shows me advance singles and super off peak singles. All for £50-70.

 

[stephy]

Will be travelling easyJet or Lumo then!

 

[yorkie]

Two flights for my preferred dates are about £60 total. So both ways. This is madness. How can this be allowed? How can they just hike the prices up like this?

The DfT are asking them to do this, so there isn't really anyone who can stop them!

Well there seems to be a glitch. I've input my originating station (a Thameslink north one) and my destination as Edinburgh and all that is coming up is Anytimes. So I can't buy fixed or off peak or anything anymore?

What is your date/time of travel, and how does the forum's site compare?

Will be travelling easyJet or Lumo then!

I think that's consistent with what the DfT want; they can't afford to provide sufficient capacity for everyone who wants to travel on LNER from London to Scotland, hence the desire to price some people off.

I think the OP was suggesting binning the £10 admin fee for changing an Advance to any date/time, so only the fare difference would be paid. I'd prefer that over this 70 minute nonsense.

Yes but LNER would rather the admin fee was pre-paid, as that means people will pay it as a form of "insurance policy" even if they don't need it, which in turn means more revenue.

This isn't about what passengers want; this about what the DfT wants, although it is true to say that they are quoting selectively what some (simple minded) customer want, in order to justify their position.

The timings and a quick look on LNER's journey planner make it crystal clear what the unpublished restrictions are there for. It's to prevent the Flex tickets being sold for the most popular (shoulder) peak services, as it would otherwise make it too easy for people to undercut the Advance on more expensive trains.

Of course it's impossible to completely close down the 'loophole' this introduces. For example, under the new system, the cheapest way to travel on the 05:40 from Edinburgh to Kings Cross is to buy a Flex ticket for the 05:48. Only LNER would have the chutzpah to claim this is "simpler"!

View attachment 150516
Image of LNER booking site showing an Advance for the 05:40 Edinburgh-Kings Cross costing £128.70 and a 70min Flex for the 05:48 costing £79.50

When it applies to York to London, I can see them getting up to all sorts of tricks to prevent people buying a ticket for the York to London stoppers, and then getting on the fast services.

But if they don't do that, I will certainly be taking advantage

 

[fandroid]

Will those in the know book Advances on the Crosscountry site and do a swift exchange of tickets before departure with no fee? Full flexibility for the agile, and less revenue for LNER.

Evidence is there from our own forum site that most potential passengers wouldn't venture any further than Trainline or possibly LNER. As can be seen from Eurostar, there is a big market of people who prefer not to fly, and are willing to pay for that, so I doubt that this strategy is seen as risky by LNER.

 

[KGX]

I think the OP was suggesting binning the £10 admin fee for changing an Advance to any date/time, so only the fare difference would be paid. I'd prefer that over this 70 minute nonsense.

Yes. This.

As it worked when they relaxed the amendment rules previously. Far more semi-flex than this 70 minute ticket option. Presume it worked for LNER as it's optimising services. Worked for the customer as I could move my ticket to any service that day and would usually be presented with a range of price options depending on the service, including no charge. Simple.

 

[fandroid]

I think that's consistent with what the DfT want; they can't afford to provide sufficient capacity for everyone who wants to travel on LNER from London to Scotland, hence the desire to price some people off.

If this true, the DfT have obviously entirely given up on correcting the basic finding of the McNulty report - that the crazy world of the privatised railway is unique in that unit costs seem to go up with every increase in customer sales.

 

[stephy]

I'm afraid Lumo shows me the cheapest fares. Not this site. I don't understand the inconsistency - I thought, LNER's pilot aside, all the tickets were the same in the background, essentially?
Sorry, don't want to screenshot my journey, happy to PM details.

 

[JonathanH]

This is not great at all.

However, it is 'fares reform' and it is 'fares reform' that (some) people have been calling for on this forum for a long time. Definitely a case of 'be careful what you wish for'.

Funny how when fares reform happens, people are all saying the previous system is better.

My fear is that this can only get worse.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The DfT are asking them to do this, so there isn't really anyone who can stop them!

The one saving grace (potentially) is that it's a two-year trial, and it's likely that the Government will have changed within that period.

I'd not guarantee Labour will stop it though!

 

[JonathanH]

The one saving grace (potentially) is that it's a two-year trial, and it's likely that the Government will have changed within that period.

I'd not guarantee Labour will stop it though!

Why would a change in political party change direction on this? Are you suggesting this was a policy dreamed up by the current incumbents? It is more likely to be something that just got approved.

As you note upthread, it is a natural evolution towards an 'advance long distance, contactless local' future.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Why would a change in political party change direction on this? Are you suggesting this was a policy dreamed up by the current incumbents? It is more likely to be something that just got approved.

A change of Government could change rail policy, including fares policy, completely. It may not, but equally it may. Look at buses, where the £2 fare scheme (which is now going to be very, very difficult to abolish) came practically out of nowhere.

The purpose of this scheme is, you could say, onefold - to increase income by removing the fare cap the Super Off Peak provides. All the rest of it is bluster. It's not about simplification, it's about charging more at what are now the busiest times of the week but are still Super Off Peak. (This may not be the case if you look now, but it'll be drip-drip-dripped in over time with small increases and quota tweaks).

A Government that accepted a higher rail subsidy based on benefits that brings might consider not implementing it or at least doing something else e.g. reducing the Anytime somewhat as Scotland are trialling.

If you want to see what the fares will look like in terms of when will be expensive and when cheaper, look at the air fares now.

 

[yorksrob]

This is not great at all.

However, it is 'fares reform' and it is 'fares reform' that (some) people have been calling for on this forum for a long time. Definitely a case of 'be careful what you wish for'.

Funny how when fares reform happens, people are all saying the previous system is better.

My fear is that this can only get worse.

People on this forum are usually quite clear about the sorts of fares reform they want. It rarely coincides with the various sleights of hand with the aim of price gouging practiced by this anti-passenger Government.

 

[Bletchleyite]

People on this forum are usually quite clear about the sorts of fares reform they want. It rarely coincides with the various sleights of hand with the aim of price gouging practiced by this anti-passenger Government.

It's hard to contemplate any possibility other than that this was thought of in response to a HMG request for them to bring in more revenue.

 

[yorksrob]

It's hard to contemplate any possibility other than that this was thought of in response to a HMG request for them to bring in more revenue.

Indeed. Will it grow the market though. Probably not.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Indeed. Will it grow the market though. Probably not.

Certainly not.

 

[yorksrob]

Certainly not.

We're in spiral of decline territory in that case, trying to extract ever more money from an ever-decreasing pool of passengers. It will break down.

A whole change of approach is required at policy level.

 

[dodecahedron67]

Notable the difference between ScotRail’s simplification and this. One focused on actually making it easier and one focused on making £££. Something something governments in charge…