LNER to pilot removal of Off-Peak tickets

[Failed Unit]

It's probably more that most people who do London to Edinburgh do buy Advances because it's such a long journey so multiple trains are unlikely to be applicable to most peoples' needs. Along similar lines I've used them to Penzance because it's such a long journey that there's less need for flexibility, and if you're using the Chieftain there's only one train anyway!

Start applying this to Leeds, Donny and the likes and the game is rather different, though. Imagine it applied to London-Birmingham! (Well, WMT and Chiltern would certainly be cashing in if they elected to keep their walk-up fares).

The biggest issue with it, though, isn't the loss of the actual Off Peak ticket, much as it's an issue to me as they're my preferred ticket. The biggest issue - and the whole purpose of doing it - is to remove the capping effect the Off Peak has on Advance fares which prevents them whacking people travelling at busy times like Friday evening and Sunday afternoon as well as school holidays with £150+ singles.

I totally agree, it is a big concern if this gets onto the Southern Part of the route. If it is implemented on this part of the route then the big winners are the ticket splitting websites. I wonder if we will see some partnerships such as EMR / Northern with new "off-peak fares via Sheffield", but then we really are in a 2 tier railway. (Ignoring the fact the EMR probably don't have enough capacity to start trying to take on passengers priced off LNER on the MML)

I must admit a lot of this is a result of the LNER ticket restrictions on the "super-off peak". Leaving after 0930 and not available between 1500 and 1900 has created a peak when people wouldn't really have one. The old BR restrictions seemed to be much better. I know demand has gone up since BR, but the restriction from the departing point is irritating and people need to split to avoid it. But I guess that is a different thread.

 

[bakerstreet]

Might be worth a few comments being added to this LNER feed on Twitter.

The punters are NOT being fooled by this !

We're proud to launch our new Simpler Fares pilot for select journeys on our route.

Part of the pilot is a new semi-flexible fare - the 70min Flex. Tickets for those routes go on sale today for travel from 5 February.

https://x.com/lner/status/1747199992131973334?s=46

And here on Linked In

We're proud to launch our new Simpler Fares pilot for select journeys on… | London North Eastern Railway

We're proud to launch our new Simpler Fares pilot for select journeys on our route. Part of the pilot is a new semi-flexible fare - the 70min Flex. Tickets for those routes go on sale today for travel from 5 February. For full details: https://spkl.io/60414QtAf

www.linkedin.com

 

[A S Leib]

Newcastle to Manors is hourly. I assume if I missed a connection then chose to walk or Metro to Manors, I could truthfully claim Delay Repay based on arrival time on foot? It’s also handy for my favourite pub…

Based on the fact that I've managed to claim delay repay between Dundee and Aberdeen by bus (track defect around Stonehaven; train staff at Dundee said tickets would be accepted on buses but either I for on the wrong bus or the driver didn't know about ticket acceptance before I got there) and between Llandudno Junction and Llandudno by bus after major disruption around Rhyl, I don't see why that wouldn't be accepted.

Also, isn't this making fares more complicated if it ends up leading to 'any permitted' fares on parts of the route being scrapped?

 

[Pushpit]

I am probably affected but it's a bit of a mixed verdict for me. One scenario (of many) is that I go from Newcastle to London for meetings / events. I know when I'm going down to London, so I get an Advance. On the way back, I'm less sure - the event may over-run, it may finish early, I may decide to socialise, or not. So I previously would get a Super Off peak and then I don't really need to worry. Except of course for an annoying bank of peak train from KGX which I have to avoid, so for that area it may be the 70 minute tickets have some advantages.

The 70 minute fares are (in the examples I checked) perhaps slightly lower than the previous £84 super off peak typically £51 to £80. This shows up that if instead I buy KGX - Durham, the Super off peaks are generally more expensive than continuing to NCL on a 70 minute ticket.

So the upside is
+ some cheaper fares, it's not necessarily a fare increase (cynically maybe the fares are being kept down)
+ some flexibility, including perhaps on to services that were previously out of scope, yes there will be occasions where this works for me.

The downsides
- loss of simplicity of a reasonably priced, fixed priced, off peak ticket available on most trains
- ability to hop on to Lumo if circumstances permit and it's not sardine-full.
- 70 minutes is just a bit too tight for my likes. I'd be less bothered if it was 95 or 125 minutes.

It's got policy-wonk all over it (hope that's the right vowel).

Mitigations:
* it's easy to get around by selecting stations other than KGX/NCL
* it's not stopping split ticketing, it may encourage it somewhat.
* if LNER get this wrong there's always BA, Lumo, Grand Central and I've also got Avanti options via Carlisle.

 

[Bletchleyite]

+ some cheaper fares, it's not necessarily a fare increase (cynically maybe the fares are being kept down)

My view is that they won't apply the fare increases now. They'll drip, drip, drip them later on so it's less visible. They've been burnt on that once.

But one thing you can be absolutely sure of is that they'll come. This is the only reason this is being done.

 

[py_megapixel]

There’s almost something rather Orwellian about people all compliantly being tied down to their own train, with the state being so generous enough to allow you 70 minutes.

I have to say this statement is a bit ridiculous.

Do I think this is a good idea? No, of course not, but it's not "Orwellian", it's just a money-making scheme. If they could get everyone travelling from Kings Cross to Edinburgh to pay the £190 anytime fare then I'm sure they'd do that and bin off the quota-controlled fares altogether.

 

[A S Leib]

* if LNER get this wrong there's always BA, Lumo, Grand Central and I've also got Avanti options via Carlisle

Same for me (as most of my journeys are Newcastle – Hemel Hempstead, not Newcastle – London); looking at how much cheaper the off-peak return from Carlisle to Euston is than the anytime from Newcastle to King's Cross really shows to me how absurd I find the changes. (And as far as I know, off-peak fares from Lancaster and further north to Euston are accepted at any time.)

 

[Bletchleyite]

Same for me (as most of my journeys are Newcastle – Hemel Hempstead, not Newcastle – London); looking at how much cheaper the off-peak return from Carlisle to Euston is than the anytime from Newcastle to King's Cross really shows to me how absurd I find the changes. (And as far as I know, off-peak fares from Lancaster and further north to Euston are accepted at any time.)

Not at any time but the morning restriction is lesser and the evening is unrestricted.

For Hemel-Newcastle I'd probably go via MKC and Manchester if TPE were behaving. I did to York a couple of months back. It's cheaper and more scenic with a Manchester split. But there is the risk this scheme ends up on all long distance trains if it is seen as more remunerative.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Apologies if I'm repeating a previous post (I haven't the energy to comb through 170+) but aren't Super Off Peaks regulated fares? So how can they legally be abolished?

Who do you think is the regulator?
It's the DfT, who can vary the rules with no oversight.

 

[Class83]

The 'all reservation' model is worth considering, but could only really be enforced on journeys to starting or ending at Kings Cross where there is the parallel Thameslink services for commuter services which can service the turn up and go/season ticket market. Potentially York/Leeds terminating services would need to operate at least partly as turn up and go as they serve some outer commuter markets. However, north of York LNER is a significant portion of the rail service around Newcastle and Edinburgh and passengers making shorter distance journeys need to be able to board.

The problem with this proposal isn't that it allows advance tickets on busy Friday/Sunday trains to be increased, dynamic pricing is a valid way of managing demand, and before 0930 and 1600-1830 Mon-Fri aren't always the busiest times anymore. However, it will result in people now facing a standard open single price to be wedged by the toilet, rather than an off peak single price for the same unpleasant experience. It's just a fairly rubbish compromise.

A better, or at least honest alternative would be.

Standard Open Single, you have to reserve a seat, but it's fully transferable to any other train with space or refundable. Flat rate and expensive
Advance: you have to reserve a seat, and if you don't use it you lose your money.

There would probably be an increase in prices (but the railway does need to increase revenue to cover costs) but the passenger experience would be improved with no standing on Long-Distance Trains.

 

[py_megapixel]

My view is that they won't apply the fare increases now. They'll drip, drip, drip them later on so it's less visible. They've been burnt on that once.

But one thing you can be absolutely sure of is that they'll come. This is the only reason this is being done.

There may be another reason: not sure if many businesses buy off-peak tickets for business travel, but if they do, the hope may be that they'll file the +-70 thing in the "too difficult/inflexible" pile and start paying for anytime ones instead.

It's a variation on a theme though

 

[Bletchleyite]

There would probably be an increase in prices (but the railway does need to increase revenue to cover costs) but the passenger experience would be improved with no standing on Long-Distance Trains.

You can have compulsory reservations without any changes to the fare structure. They are independent of airline-style pricing which is what this is about. Plenty of countries (most notably Asian ones) have flat fares with compulsory reservations.

There may be another reason: not sure if many businesses buy off-peak tickets for business travel, but if they do, the hope may be that they'll file the +-70 thing in the "too difficult/inflexible" pile and start paying anytime ones instead.

My employer requires the use of Advances if applicable. My personal rail travel is generally at higher prices as I don't for personal use!

 

[Watershed]

Apologies if I'm repeating a previous post (I haven't the energy to comb through 170+) but aren't Super OffPeaks regulated fares? So how can they legally be abolished?

As well as the capping issue, there is the BoJ facility that will be lost - it may not be much used (it's years since I did that in this country) - and the flexibility on return halves (but that went with single-leg pricing).

I am much less hostile to the idea of an "Advance Plus" - I might benefit from this: I now usually travel First (for a less crowded experience, not just the freebies), where (LNER) Offpeak fares are poor value, so I almost always use Advances.

I might be persuaded to cough up the extra for a bit of flexibility. I certainly would do so for the return leg if I had a business meeting or similar when I might welcome a bit of flexibility.

The DfT owns LNER so the concept of fares regulation is effectively nugatory. Fares regulation only exists as a result of the contracts between the DfT and the TOCs so since the DfT is behind this, they can and do just give dispensation to remove regulated fares.

 

[purple-Azumas]

The cynic in me says it's all very convenient that there's such a short window (less than 3 weeks) between announcement and implementation - almost as if they know that by the time there can be any scrutiny / an understanding of where such a policy's come from (and indeed whether LNER truly believe it has any direct support), it'll already be live and they can play the 'we've started so we'll finish' card.

 

[Agent_Squash]

Dare I say it, this is making a mountain out of a molehill.

LNER (and the DfT) have been wanting to have better yield management for a while now - especially with the main source of complaint on long distance flows being lack of seats/luggage space.

And let's be real, outside the railway community very few people care about turn up and go, and even fewer about break of journey. In fact, I reckon more people think they're restricted to the train they choose on Trainline (even with an Anytime ticket!)

I think this product strikes a better balance than most give it credit for. It gives the vast majority of passengers the flexibility they'd use, and gives the ability to better manage capacity.

It's not perfect. I'd like to see a price cap versus an anytime ticket, fully refundable (at least) three days before departure, and usable on any operator.

But compared to equivalent IC operations in Europe and the airlines, it's a far better proposition. Something needed to be done about off peak capacity, and this is arguably the best solution.

You wouldn't get this level of flexibility on OBB!

 

[Bletchleyite]

It's not perfect. I'd like to see a price cap versus an anytime ticket, fully refundable (at least) three days before departure, and usable on any operator.

Again, I think I need to scream this like I'm blue in the face - but removal of capping so fares can be increased substantially is the ONLY purpose of this change. It is not about flexibility. It is about increasing fares income, and ONLY about doing that.

Thus you can expect to see £150+ singles on Friday and Sunday PM and in school holidays. Are you really in support of this? They'll not do it immediately, they'll sneak it in over time, but mark my words it'll happen.

But compared to equivalent IC operations in Europe and the airlines, it's a far better proposition. Something needed to be done about off peak capacity, and this is arguably the best solution.

You wouldn't get this level of flexibility on OBB!

Eh? OeBB's Anytime equivalent is available on every train (bar the overnighters, as per the Cally in the UK) and is excellent value, and reservations are optional.

You get more flexibility than SNCF or Trenitalia, but SNCF is, well, pretty awful, and Trenitalia fares are FAR more reasonable than any UK ones. And RENFE is just an example of how not to run a railway, evidenced by the massive coach market Spain has.

 

[Agent_Squash]

Again, I think I need to scream this like I'm blue in the face - but removal of capping so fares can be increased substantially is the ONLY purpose of this change. It is not about flexibility. It is about increasing fares income, and ONLY about doing that.

Thus you can expect to see £150+ singles on Friday and Sunday PM and in school holidays. Are you really in support of this? They'll not do it immediately, they'll sneak it in over time, but mark my words it'll happen.

Hence my support for a price cap against anytime tickets as a guarantee.

But the idea that LNER are going to massively up fares isn’t as clear cut as this thread makes it seem. Ultimately, the DFT still wants its premiums - and decimating the market won’t give them that.

Eh? OeBB's Anytime equivalent is available on every train (bar the overnighters, as per the Cally in the UK) and is excellent value, and reservations are optional.

You get more flexibility than SNCF or Trenitalia, but SNCF is, well, pretty awful, and Trenitalia fares are FAR more reasonable than any UK ones. And RENFE is just an example of how not to run a railway, evidenced by the massive coach market Spain has.

As far as I can see, OBB’s semi flexible ticket doesn’t give you a choice of multiple trains. So this product can be seen as better…

 

[Bletchleyite]

Hence my support for a price cap against anytime tickets as a guarantee.

Which it doesn't include and won't include. If they were going to have one, why wouldn't they just keep the Super Off Peak, as that was one?

But the idea that LNER are going to massively up fares isn’t as clear cut as this thread makes it seem. Ultimately, the DFT still wants its premiums - and decimating the market won’t give them that.

It's 100% certain.

I don't know where he said it now, might have been Modern Railways a while back, but David Horne has actually said they believed they could increase yield if they were allowed to increase fares past the Super Off Peak level at busy leisure times. Nobody's making it up - it's 100% of the reason. There is no other purpose for this change.

They probably won't do it immediately, fares will creep up over time so it's less obvious, but you can guarantee they will.

See Avanti West Coast in the peak. One £350 Manchester to London return brings in more money than three £100 ones. It's not about bums on seats, it's about money and only money.

As far as I can see, OBB’s semi flexible ticket doesn’t give you a choice of multiple trains. So this product can be seen as better…

OeBB's flexible (Anytime equivalent) ticket is affordable (cheaper than our Super Off Peaks other than the price-dumped ones, or similar in price to WCML Off Peaks which are for historical reasons cheaper than most others) and is valid on all trains with no restrictions. You don't need a semi-flexible ticket then, though they can obviously have one if they want. The equivalent is if LNER introduced this new ticket as well as the super off peak.

 

[WAB]

My employer requires the use of Advances if applicable. My personal rail travel is generally at higher prices as I don't for personal use!

Several of my friends work for companies which introduced this... until the inevitable chaos when meetings overran or people sloped off to the pub to await their train after meetings finished early.

 

[PeterC]

Last time I used LNER I had been in hospital, times depended entirely on when the pharmacy got around to issuing my meds. Booked a super off peak from the comfort of the ward. Train at York turned up on time except that it turned out to be a previous service exactly 3 or 4 hours late.

If I had had to buy a flex ticket once I knew my times I would have presumably had to wait at York for the "correct" train which would probably have been 2 or 3 trains later.

A bit niche but an example of why sometimes flexibility is a good thing.

 

[Agent_Squash]

Which it doesn't include and won't include. If they were going to have one, why wouldn't they just keep the Super Off Peak, as that was one?

LNER services have limited luggage capacity and everyone wants a seat. The only way you can manage that is pricing - and the Super Off Peak didn’t give that.

It's 100% certain.

I don't know where he said it now, might have been Modern Railways a while back, but David Horne has actually said they believed they could increase yield if they were allowed to increase fares past the Super Off Peak level at busy leisure times. Nobody's making it up - it's 100% of the reason. There is no other purpose for this change.

They probably won't do it immediately, fares will creep up over time so it's less obvious, but you can guarantee they will.

See Avanti West Coast in the peak. One £350 Manchester to London return brings in more money than three £100 ones. It's not about bums on seats, it's about money and only money.

The Super Off Peak is less than half the anytime fare. Even a modest increase (to £100, say) would massively help with capacity issues.

Plus unlike Avanti, these tickets are claimed to be available up to 5 minutes before departure. It’d be insane to keep the same prices if the train isn’t full and you can discount to fill.

Yield management isn’t just about the profit per seat - it’s about maximising the profit you get overall.

OeBB's flexible (Anytime equivalent) ticket is affordable (cheaper than our Super Off Peaks other than the price-dumped ones, or similar in price to WCML Off Peaks which are for historical reasons cheaper than most others) and is valid on all trains with no restrictions. You don't need a semi-flexible ticket then, though they can obviously have one if they want. The equivalent is if LNER introduced this new ticket as well as the super off peak.

Funny that, as I found OeBB quite expensive compared to my WCML to London journey when travelling in Austria.

I couldn’t do a full comparison, but even the family I was travelling with commented on the price of a flex Innsbruck-Vienna (which they don’t here!)

Ultimately though, I’d rather have a seat for a long 4 hour trip to Edinburgh rather than saving. The increased chance of a seat is easily worth the uplift.

Last time I used LNER I had been in hospital, times depended entirely on when the pharmacy got around to issuing my meds. Booked a super off peak from the comfort of the ward. Train at York turned up on time except that it turned out to be a previous service exactly 3 or 4 hours late.

If I had had to buy a flex ticket once I knew my times I would have presumably had to wait at York for the "correct" train which would probably have been 2 or 3 trains later.

A bit niche but an example of why sometimes flexibility is a good thing.

We need to get better at dealing with situations like this in the UK, but all day flexibility isn’t the answer.

 

[A S Leib]

The fact that there's a far larger number of users seeing this thread at once than I've ever seen on a thread before (currently 38 members, 29 guests) doesn't suggest to me that, at least amongst the demographic of the population interested enough to be here (which, granted, probably doesn't match that of the wider population), there's massive clarity of or support for the changes.

 

[Bletchleyite]

LNER services have limited luggage capacity and everyone wants a seat. The only way you can manage that is pricing - and the Super Off Peak didn’t give that.

You've presumably heard of making a seat reservation?

Luggage is slightly separate and I've not noticed it being a major issue on LNER other than bone idle people who put their bag on the seat rather than in the overhead.

The Super Off Peak is less than half the anytime fare. Even a modest increase (to £100, say) would massively help with capacity issues.

I'd be happy with reducing the Anytime to £100 but abolishing the Super Off Peak. But you didn't mean that. The Anytime is punitively overpriced and not a sensible guide to anything.

Take Manchester-London. There is no sense in which £350 return is reasonable. That's expensive for First Class let alone Standard.

Plus unlike Avanti, these tickets are claimed to be available up to 5 minutes before departure. It’d be insane to keep the same prices if the train isn’t full and you can discount to fill.

They won't do that because last minute people will pay more.

Yield management isn’t just about the profit per seat - it’s about maximising the profit you get overall.

Yes, and you do that by charging fewer people more money. Avanti is evidence.

Ultimately though, I’d rather have a seat for a long 4 hour trip to Edinburgh rather than saving. The increased chance of a seat is easily worth the uplift.

Have you really never heard of making a seat reservation? Other than the odd occasion when they don't work or they swap 9 for 10 or vice versa, that gives you a 100% chance of a seat, and at no charge too!

 

[Joe Paxton]

Oh crikey, what a development.

In the spirit of being open minded, I'm trying to see the plus side... and failing.


Some lines from LNER's new campaign...

"Enjoy freedom all the way with LNER."

"Freedom all the way. You can go with this or you can go with that when you go with LNER."

 

[WAB]

So what are the implications for PRIV travel? £75 each way vs £30 for an advance with railcard? Replicate this everywhere and it becomes a bit of a naff perk.

 

[Pushpit]

I've noticed that Super Offpeak Singles continue to/from station APN (NCL airport), £86.70 instead of £83.60 to KGX-NCL.

I've therefore realised that so long as 70 minute Flex singles cost £70.40 or less, I am totally in favour of this change.

 

[Agent_Squash]

You've presumably heard of making a seat reservation?

Luggage is slightly separate and I've not noticed it being a major issue on LNER other than bone idle people who put their bag on the seat rather than in the overhead.

Have you really never heard of making a seat reservation? Other than the odd occasion when they don't work or they swap 9 for 10 or vice versa, that gives you a 100% chance of a seat, and at no charge too!

Seat reservations are not the answer when they are a) hardly enforced and b) people are standing!

Yes, and you do that by charging fewer people more money. Avanti is evidence.

Not if you’re doing it properly. Any properly yield managed business will keep the prices as high as possible as long as they can, but drop at last minute as bums on seats is better than nothing.

You keep using the Avanti example, but 1x £350 return is far less valuable than at least 4x £100 singles, as an example…

 

[Bletchleyite]

The last minute thing doesn't work for rail as people will pay a premium at the last minute.

 

[Hadders]

I've feared this would be coming for a considerable period of time.

It's a mechanism to raise fares, pure and simple, as DfT/LNER consider the Super Off-Peak fare to be too cheap, and they want to charge much more at popular times of the week like evenings and weekends. Personally I don't think £83.80 for a Super Off Peak Single from Kings Cross to Newcastle can be considered ' too cheap' but I suspect we're staring down the barrel of £150+ now.

It isn't at all simple either and will introduce even more inconsistency. Being quota controlled will mean that unless you get in early you'll end up having to pay the Anytime Single fare of £192.80. In the short term buying to places like Finsbury Park or Manors will work but how long until these changes are applied to all LNER priced flows, as we saw with the single leg ticketing rollout?

Like with TfL's proposed withdrawal of Travelcards we need to complain vigorously about this. I didn't think Travelcards would be reprievedm but enough people complain LNER might be forced to rethink.

 

[yorkie]

Oh crikey, what a development.

In the spirit of being open minded, I'm trying to see the plus side... and failing.


Some lines from LNER's new campaign...

"Enjoy freedom all the way with LNER."

"Freedom all the way. You can go with this or you can go with that when you go with LNER."

I agree it sounds absurd, however to LNER, it all makes perfect sense; the "freedom" they refer to is the freedom to relax and do what you want during the journey, i.e. not have to concentrate on driving.

LNER absolutely do not refer to freedom in terms of buying a ticket that lets you travel at any time and by any route; of course such tickets do still exist, but at a very high price, which is designed to put people off.

Any properly yield managed business will keep the prices as high as possible as long as they can, but drop at last minute as bums on seats is better than nothing.

Maybe, but in any case, LNER are not going to do that. Indeed, they tell people they should book 12 weeks in advance if possible, to get the best price:

https://twitter.com/LNER/status/1747217673249821105

we always recommend booking 12 weeks in advance if possible for the best price and value for your tickets ^Libby

I've noticed that Super Offpeak Singles continue to/from station APN (NCL airport), £86.70 instead of £83.60 to KGX-NCL.

I've therefore realised that so long as 70 minute Flex singles cost £70.40 or less, I am totally in favour of this change.

Yes that's alright for people who know they will be travelling +/- 70 minutes, and on LNER only, but it may not stay that 'cheap' for long. You are also giving away a lot of flexibility for only a modest price reduction.

On Saturday 17 February, the last journey opportunity from London to Newcastle is priced at £83.50 (Advance) or £192.80 (Anytime) with no Flex or Off Peak option.




However, we get round it by splitting; the forum's site charges less than LNER do, for this journey. Of course LNER are very keen for people to book "direct" and for passengers to be none the wiser.

Based on this new information, might you form a different view on this change?

LNER services have limited luggage capacity and everyone wants a seat. The only way you can manage that is pricing - and the Super Off Peak didn’t give that.

If I book the 1602 York to London stopper on a popular day, do I get more chance of a seat on the busy 1559 non-stop service, if I have a Flex ticket, compared to a Super Off Peak?

Perhaps your thinking is that fewer people will travel, as some people will be deterred by travelling, and that will free up seats? If that is what you are thinking, then yes, I agree with that being a likely outcome. But I am unsure how that could be spun as a positive thing?

We need to get better at dealing with situations like this in the UK, but all day flexibility isn’t the answer.

LNER continue to provide that product, albeit at a very high price.

You wouldn't get this level of flexibility on OBB!

I think you do:

Standard- & Comfort ticket

Standard-Ticket, Komfort-Ticket and ÖBB Basic offers: What can it be for you?

www.oebb.at

You want to decide at short notice whether you will be travelling? With the ÖBB Standard-Ticket, you have utmost flexibility. You are not limited to a certain train and can choose you connection freely.

A Standard ticket from Innsbruck to Vienna is €80.70, i.e. just under £70, for a distance that is greater than Newcastle to London, for which LNER are charging £192.80 for the comparable product.