London Euston - late advertising of services

[zwk500]

This is true but I do think the railway attracts more than its fair share, though. I wonder why that is.

I think part of it might be just that they've spent so long dealing with arsey passengers they've had it. I also think there's a number of people who get into the industry because they're enthusiasts and like to play with 'their' train set.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think part of it might be just that they've spent so long dealing with arsey passengers they've had it.

Part of the problem is that, while verbally or physically assaulting staff isn't acceptable even if they do lack any semblance of customer service skills, that does become an ever-decreasing circle.

I also think there's a number of people who get into the industry because they're enthusiasts and like to play with 'their' train set.

If you want to play with a 12" to the foot model railway then there are preserved lines, but yes, it does appear that some staff like to get paid to play with a bigger one, and wish those pesky passengers would just go away, like they did in March 2020.

 

[[.n]]

The railway is private property so you don’t have an intrinsic right to be there. You have an implied right of entry but the legislation dealing with railway trespass makes it clear that, to all intents and purposes, if an authorised person (ie a staff member) asks you to leave, and you refuse to do so, you are likely to be committing the criminal offence of railway trespass. Holding a ticket is neither here nor there.

CPS guidance below gives a good overview:

Transport Offences | The Crown Prosecution Service

www.cps.gov.uk

(It’s a table so difficult to quote from, but Railway Regulation Act 1840 section 16 looks relevant).

IIRC There’s another bylaw offence around failing to obey instructions of staff.

This is why it’s worth speaking to staff first if you want to go and take photos, watch trains or do anything they might make your behaviour seem different to a regular passenger. This is because of obvious concerns around security and people who might be a suicide risk.

EDIT: I’m not commenting on Euston specifically, or in any way defending the staff, because there are clearly major issues there! At my London terminal platform staff will generally want to see an empty (of regular passengers) platform if trains are going to be splitting and joining. Enthusiasts who want to take photos are certainly allowed to do so, so long as they make it clear what they’re up to.

Thanks for that - even then (and yes hard to quote from that table) - s16 says in the comments it applies if you are making a nuisance of yourself (drunk/begging) or if its an area that public is not allowed (tracks/embankment). The offence in S16 even states that for the trespass offence the purpose is to exclude people who are not there for the purpose of using the railway.

So in my example, I would be wanting to use the railway (I have valid ticket for train that departs from that platform, I'd be in a safe public area, I wouldn't even be taking a selfie - let alone other photos, as I'd be quietly reading a book awaiting my train).

I'm very thankful that I only rarely have to use Euston!!!

 

[FOH]

I think part of it might be just that they've spent so long dealing with arsey passengers they've had it. I also think there's a number of people who get into the industry because they're enthusiasts and like to play with 'their' train set.

Also I'd suggest if you did it in Currys you'd soon be out on your ear whereas the railways seem to be much more protective of staff Vs managers

 

[Metal_gee_man]

It depends on what the clean and prep involves.

With some Intercity trains for example in the past it involved having hose pipes out to tank the train and catering supply trucks and bin trucks driving up the platform, all of which cannot be done with the public on the platform. I'm not sure whether that is the case still these days!

Incidentally horrible experience with LNER at Kings Cross last month - got there about half an hour before departure, waiting passengers kettled on a packed concourse, then when they called the platform for boarding another train was just arriving onto the same island platform so the crowds heading to the train got stuck with a huge crowd coming off the train queuing to get out the barriers.

The simple fix is to either find out via RealTimeTrains which platform your train is parked at and just get down to the train in advance, or my preference just incase for some crazy crazy reason they change sets because of a fault, I prepare by going up to the mezzanine with the restaurants overlooking the departure board and use the overbridge through the small gateline upstairs and down the escalator to the correct platform halfway down the platform! No dramas and as I always end up near the front of the train (just my luck) it's a quicker way to my seat

 

[the sniper]

I think part of it might be just that they've spent so long dealing with arsey passengers they've had it. I also think there's a number of people who get into the industry because they're enthusiasts and like to play with 'their' train set.

Of the kind of people you're talking about, I've never encountered one who was a rail enthusiast or had any interest in playing trains or the industry at all. Quite the opposite. I'm surprised someone would deduce that the people who don't like enthusiasts are enthusiasts. Admittedly, if you've read this forum long enough as an enthusiast member of staff, it becomes far more plausible to imagine...

Your first statement is far more reflective of reality.

 

[Andrew1395]

As a frequent user, I can second guess the departure platform by looking at the arrivals board. What did strike me was the disinformation (for LNR services), on the table described as fastest next service. For example Watford Junction and Bushey it was claimed the fastest next service was the 21.00 (London Overground), when there was a 21.06 LNR service. The next fastest service info was driven by the publication of the departure platform. Which to my mind was a bit misguided. It should be the next known departure, even if the platform was not ready to be published.

 

[Bletchleyite]

As a frequent user, I can second guess the departure platform by looking at the arrivals board. What did strike me was the disinformation (for LNR services), on the table described as fastest next service. For example Watford Junction and Bushey it was claimed the fastest next service was the 21.00 (London Overground), when there was a 21.06 LNR service. The next fastest service info was driven by the publication of the departure platform. Which go my mind was a bit misguid. It should be the next known departure, even if the platform was not ready to be published.

I'm fairly sure the "next fastest" display shows the next fastest for each TOC on multiple lines for those cases where there's more than one option (i.e. Harrow, Bushey, Watford Jn and MKC). This makes a reasonable amount of sense as a lot of people at Euston will have a ticket for a specific TOC.

If it is ignoring any train with no platform then that's a bug and needs fixing.

 

[Tester]

I guess it was inevitable that someone would say, "But how do they do it in Japan?".

Tokyo station train cleaning video

 

[iainbhx]

Spend 5 minutes on Flyertalk (an air travel version of this Forum - there are two main ones - FT more for passengers and PPRuNe more for crews, plus airliners.net as more of a spotter/photter type place) and you'll see plenty of talk of "gate dragons". When you give a metaphorical peaked cap to an insecure low-level employee, you always get this sort of power trip.

Indeed and lounge dragons as well, there used to be a very special one at one of the Munich lounges who seemed to think that the ideal situation was no-one in her lounge and started claiming cards were "damaged" or "fake" - she sometimes cut then up. One day, she disappeared never to be seen again, the rumour was that she had turned away a Bundestag member with a Senator card and cut his card up as a fake.

I'm always of the opinion that the behaviour at Euston is staff trying to get a promotion to the promised land of Blackpool North but with current cancellations and delays, it's getting pretty dangerous, there were about 3 trainloads worth stampeding for a Birmingham called 7 minutes before departure just before Christmas with a phalanx of RPI's blocking the way but only 2 actually checking tickets.

The stampede in full flow can also block people coming off the platforms.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Indeed and lounge dragons as well, there used to be a very special one at one of the Munich lounges who seemed to think that the ideal situation was no-one in her lounge and started claiming cards were "damaged" or "fake" - she sometimes cut then up. One day, she disappeared never to be seen again, the rumour was that she had turned away a Bundestag member with a Senator card and cut his card up as a fake.

And car park shuttle bus, er, dragons? Never saw that on there (I don't frequent it these days though), but I did get one at Luton into trouble (she either left or was sacked, never saw her again) after I reported her for deliberately closing the doors on a passenger trapping her leg. A classic "respect my autoritaaah" situation, she wanted people to board at the front only (despite this not being the rule on the Luton airport shuttle buses at the time) and so as a woman started to board at the rear she made a comment out loud about it (I was near the front door so heard it) and closed the doors on her, and when I pointed out that she was trapped refused to reopen them to release her for a good 30 seconds or so until it became clear that the mob of passengers at the front was likely to lynch her if she didn't. Wilfully dangerous behaviour on an incorrect point of principle. I was so angry I actually phoned and reported it while still on the bus, and to the airport's credit it was followed up properly, e.g. they downloaded the CCTV and confirmed they'd seen it happen.

So it's not just the railway.

 

[DelW]

The simple fix is to either find out via RealTimeTrains which platform your train is parked at and just get down to the train in advance, or my preference just incase for some crazy crazy reason they change sets because of a fault, I prepare by going up to the mezzanine with the restaurants overlooking the departure board and use the overbridge through the small gateline upstairs and down the escalator to the correct platform halfway down the platform! No dramas and as I always end up near the front of the train (just my luck) it's a quicker way to my seat

ISTR from one of the TV programmes about the rebuilding of Kings Cross that it was originally intended that the mezzanine and overbridge would be the normal route to the platforms for boarding, and that the gateline by the blocks would be exit-only for arriving passengers. I think there were attempts to enforce that in the early days, but since the route via the southern ends of the platforms is more obvious from the concourse, it became impossible to prevent passengers using it.

Using the mezzanine and bridge has always been easier when I've used KX.

 

[duncanp]

I think part of it might be just that they've spent so long dealing with arsey passengers they've had it. I also think there's a number of people who get into the industry because they're enthusiasts and like to play with 'their' train set.

Whilst I can understand the annoyance rail staff have in dealing with "arsey passengers", it doesn't help matters by taking an unnecessarily confrontational attitude in return.

In any job where you are dealing with the great British public, you need to learn how to de-escalate potentially awkward situations and try not to take things personally.

I also think that you shouldn't apply for a job in the rail industry solely because you are an enthusiast. There is a world of difference between travelling on trains as a passenger, or train spotting at a major station, and actually working as a member of staff on board a train or at a station.

 

[Intercity110]

How can you get on the platform before it’s announced? Is it real-time trains?

 

[ValleyLines142]

Paddington has improved massively over the past couple of years. Now platforms are announced around 15-20 minutes before departure.
The remaining local services no longer have 10 minute turnaround times.

Cannon Street, Victoria and Waterloo etc all do the same. Platform isn't displayed until the inbound train arrives which can be 10 minutes before departure as the trains often have short turnarounds

I don't think Paddington has improved that much to be honest.

However, in spite of that, I do feel that services now have very little turnaround time.

 

[cactustwirly]

I don't think Paddington has improved that much to be honest.

However, in spite of that, I do feel that services now have very little turnaround time.

The services are announced 20 minutes before departure every I have used it.

 

[zwk500]

How can you get on the platform before it’s announced? Is it real-time trains?

RTT will give it, or any other open data feed, such as TIGER or OpenTrainTimes, if you've got the headcode.

Beware of last-minute changes though, as RTT can often miss set swaps or unplanned replatformings.

 

[ValleyLines142]

The services are announced 20 minutes before departure every I have used it.

Count yourself lucky; I can't share the same sentiment unfortunately!

 

[Peter0124]

RTT will give it, or any other open data feed, such as TIGER or OpenTrainTimes, if you've got the headcode.

Beware of last-minute changes though, as RTT can often miss set swaps or unplanned replatformings.

Railcam, Traksy for example are probably the most accurate way of finding a train as it shows the headcode in the platforms. But yes last minute swaps can happen and the headcodes can change.

 

[Scotrail314209]

Not strictly Euston; but Glasgow Central and Glasgow Queen Street have a tendency to show platforms pretty late on.

Glasgow Central being the worst for it as the unit for the service has sat there for some time, completely unlocked but no platform.

Queen Street is the same, the unit has been there for a while but they haven't revealed the platform for it.

Back on topic; I hope the situation at Euston really does get better, it can be pretty difficult to manoveur the concourse.

 

[Parham Wood]

The simple fix is to either find out via RealTimeTrains which platform your train is parked at and just get down to the train in advance, or my preference just incase for some crazy crazy reason they change sets because of a fault, I prepare by going up to the mezzanine with the restaurants overlooking the departure board and use the overbridge through the small gateline upstairs and down the escalator to the correct platform halfway down the platform! No dramas and as I always end up near the front of the train (just my luck) it's a quicker way to my seat

This is not a fix for the average passenger but useful for those with a rail interest I would say. The railway needs to get its act together and provide suitable timely notification to passengers about platforms and opening them in time to enable people to board in a no frantic rush manner.

 

[Bikeman78]

RTT will give it, or any other open data feed, such as TIGER or OpenTrainTimes, if you've got the headcode.

Beware of last-minute changes though, as RTT can often miss set swaps or unplanned replatformings.

I tend to cross reference with the maps on opentraintimes. There could still be a last minute swap but I've very rarely been caught out.

 

[duncanp]

This is not a fix for the average passenger but useful for those with a rail interest I would say. The railway needs to get its act together and provide suitable timely notification to passengers about platforms and opening them in time to enable people to board in a no frantic rush manner.

I agree.

For long distance services, there should be a minimum of 15 minutes between the advertisement of the platform and the departure of the train.

If that means the train has to leave late, then so be it.

At Euston, if the platform is advertised less than 15 minutes before the scheduled departure, then Avanti in particular should not enforce a ticket check before boarding, and instead check tickets on the train.

But that would be in the best interests of passengers, so there is next to no chance of that happening.

 

[Andrew1395]

In the old days if an intercity was going to be a late or close to time departure the options were, check the tickets at the top of the ramp, and when the train was ready open the gates. Or ”run” the train, advertise the platform as soon as turnaround cleaned (often perfunctory), and labelled. Advertise with the gates open. Tell the guard that it was a full on train ticket check and use a bit of common sense if customers had got on the wrong train or with a wrong ticket eg a blue/white saver.

 

[stu227]

I think there have been a few threads like this about Euston/other London termini and the rush to the platforms when services are announced. It's completely unnecessary IMO, but gateline staff seem to get a kick out of being "in control" and denying passengers access to board or simply stand outside the train.

There was an old guy at Liverpool St who used to do this regularly. Miserable as sin, took absolute delight in despatching as early as he possibly could, usually best part of a minute before scheduled departure, while passengers ran for the train. He particularly liked it when the rear train was out of service and people had to run eight cars to the front train.

Reported him several times but nobody cares. Staff like this do the railway and their employers a complete disservice.

 

[MasterYoda]

Off of peak commuter hours the LNR staff at Euston seem to "hide" a lot in their platform 11 office, although PA announcements by them have picked up in recent weeks. The new customer box on platform 11/10 has done nothing. It's never staffed, then got blinds fitted, and it's still not staffed.
The other problem is LNR seem to clearly know about an outbound cancellation long before it happens but fail to advertise it until minutes before. An example of this could be a cold and dark unit with panto down, no staff, so that clearly isn't going to leave in 60/120 seconds. Or an empty platform where the incoming arrival should have been, cancelled many stations up and no relief unit in sight.
Why can't LNR and NR get the comms right? Advertise as soon as they know. The paying passenger will be less p.o.'ed if they have information in a timely fashion they can do somthing with rather than after the departure was supposed to occur.

Just to point out I've never seen tanking at Euston on LNR units. I presume they only do that in depot? (This is toilet tanking and fluids)
And the various cleaning contractors for LNR are also incredibly hit an miss. Sometimes on peak. Rarely on weekends or evenings. Occasionally a miffed conductor that they have to convey such a filthy unit, but this tends to be the older conductors imho who actually care. Cleaning clearly is not a prerequisite for dispatching an LNR unit on time at Euston.

 

[riceuten]

When I was a student living in London and travelling back to MCR 30 years ago, it really was no better. BR, Virgin Trains, Avanti, all don't seem to have sussed out you need(ed) a good 5 minutes to get to and on the train, even as a youthful student