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Man dies charging iPhone while in the bath

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WelshBluebird

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I think bringing the 4-gang into the bath with you falls into the "remarkably stupid" category, if that is indeed what happened.

I'm not so sure the same could be said about bringing the phone and the USB charging cable into the bath with you. I think people are accustomed to the ends of charging cables being completely harmless.

This may sound callous considering someone has died, but you have to draw a line between what is sensible and necessary for a safety warning and what is just user stupidity.

Electric + Water = bad.
If you are too thick to realise that, then well, maybe you have more pressing issues at hand than having to charge your phone.
 
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tony_mac

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Why is it that 'stupid' people deserve to die, and no remorse should be shown, or even steps taken to prevent future deaths?

Should we have the same attitude to people with physical, as well as mental impairments?
 

WelshBluebird

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Why is it that 'stupid' people deserve to die, and no remorse should be shown, or even steps taken to prevent future deaths?

Should we have the same attitude to people with physical, as well as mental impairments?

Read what I said. I never said anyone deserves to die, just that some things should not need safety warnings. We don't put safety messages for every single case of possible misuse on things, because we assume that people know better than to do some things. I think not using a phone while you are charging it sat in the bath counts as one of those cases.

And if you do think it is a good idea to do that, then I think you probably have more urgent issues at hand (because there are much more dangerous things that require less mental gymnastics to justify that the person could easily do). Basically if we feel as a society we need to add in safety warnings for such a case, then we also probably need to add safety warnings for all sorts of other stupid things.

If someone is convinced using an electric device in the bath, while that device is plugged into the mains, then there is really nothing that you can do which could prevent it (because they clearly don't listen to warnings anyway).
 
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Darandio

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I agree, and said as much up-thread. However, the phone is specifically marketed as being 'water resistant' so it's not unreasonable that it should also carry a warning to the effect that it shouldn't be charged while in/around water.

I have a coat marked 'water resistant', but i've never felt the need to wear it in the bath.

Look, i'm nit-picking now and I don't really know why, maybe i'm just old fashioned. I just feel that if we have now reached the point where people need to have such a thing pointed out to them, then we have turned another downward corner in society, and that makes me a bit sad.
 

talltim

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My water comes out of the tap without any warnings not to use it around electricity...
 

455driver

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It's not insane to recommend it if there is no warning currently.

It doesnt tell me not to go swimming or jump out of a plane with no parachute with it either so that must be okay! :lol:

Where do you draw the line and where does somebody become accountable for their own actions/stupidity?
 

najaB

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Where do you draw the line and where does somebody become accountable for their own actions/stupidity?
As I noted above, the iPhone 7 is marketed as being water resistant so it's not unreasonable to caveat that with an explanation of exactly what 'water resistant' means.
 

455driver

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As I noted above, the iPhone 7 is marketed as being water resistant so it's not unreasonable to caveat that with an explanation of exactly what 'water resistant' means.

It doesnt mean waterproof does it!

Was the extension lead he had plonked on his chest marked up as water resistant or waterproof, if not then why did he see fit to take it into the bath?
 

najaB

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It doesnt mean waterproof does it!
In case you're under the impression that I'm trying to excuse this gentleman's actions, take a look at post #3 in the thread.

The question was asked as to what recommendation the coroner could be making to Apple to prevent future incidents. It's not unreasonable that an electrical device which is marketed as being water resistant should include a warning not to attempt to charge it while in or around water.
 

Cowley

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Well having read all this I think I understand the mistake of being plugged into the mains and lying in water. So I'm going to get in the bath now with this petrol generator on a lilo arrangement that I've just assembled and send a few important texts.
 

DaleCooper

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Well having read all this I think I understand the mistake of being plugged into the mains and lying in water. So I'm going to get in the bath now with this petrol generator on a lilo arrangement that I've just assembled and send a few important texts.

If it's just a quick bath you probably won't need the guard on the drive belt.
 

Dai Corner

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Well having read all this I think I understand the mistake of being plugged into the mains and lying in water. So I'm going to get in the bath now with this petrol generator on a lilo arrangement that I've just assembled and send a few important texts.

If you like to smoke in the bath diesel would probably be safer.
 

LAX54

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I don't know, it's a very good question. But I say again - genuine Apple devices have good separation between the mains and DC sides of the charger.

It is a basic design requirement in order for them to be able to carry UL and CE markings, they would not be certified to carry those marks if it was possible to get a lethal shock from the DC side of the charger.

But no one in their right mind would have 240v anywhere near the bathroom
 

Bletchleyite

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I agree - the only socket in a bathroom is a shaving socket.

With an RCD/RCBO you're allowed a regular one outside the "zones", but plugging your phone into it while in the bath is still mind-numbingly idiotic, even if the RCD/RCBO reduces the risk a bit.

But I bet most people don't know if they have RCDs/RCBOs or not anyway. (I know I don't, it's on the list but not a priority).
 

Murph

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The way that protections such as voltage isolation/separation inside a good quality charger and protective devices such as a RCD should be viewed is roughly the following, in the context of the bath. Protections have to win every time for you to survive; electricity only has to win once for you to die.

In theory a good charger and/or a good RCD should make the risk very close to zero. Both types of protection can develop damage/faults (possibly even a manufacturing fault), which may be completely hidden until forensic investigation following an incident. Before anyone suggests that good design can eliminate fault scenarios, they should ask themselves if they would literally bet their life on it. Without a large (and dry) air gap between mains and low voltage, the risk can't be fully eliminated (i.e. can never be zero), at least in practical terms when the consumer demands a small and moderately priced charger.
 
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Groningen

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In dutch society there is some doubt about the quality of Chinese webshop products. Cheap yes, but is it reliable and safe?!
 

Murph

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In dutch society there is some doubt about the quality of Chinese webshop products. Cheap yes, but is it reliable and safe?!

BBC News puts it at approximately 99% of them being dangerous, according to UK Trading Standards.

Fake Apple chargers fail safety tests:
BBC News said:
Investigators have warned consumers they face potentially fatal risks after 99% of fake Apple chargers failed a basic safety test.

Yes, that's the second time I've linked that in this thread, but the message is sufficiently important that it's worth it. Ok, that's specific to fake Apple products, but I strongly suspect that a large proportion of all no-brand / fake / etc chargers are either an electrical shock risk, a fire risk, or both. If it's not a company that you can reasonably easily bring into a UK (or EU) court, to account for their failings, you should assume that they may not be too bothered about your health and safety and that they may well have put fake CE / UL / BS / etc markings on their products. I see no reason to believe that no-brand / unknown-brand products will be any safer than the outright fakes.

To me, it's utterly nuts to put any trust in a cheap import from outside the EU or US (that isn't reliably backed by a major brand or retailer), when it comes to electrical and fire safety. The risk simply dwarfs any possible savings over buying a reputable product from a reputable retailer.

The same applies to Lithium batteries, where fakes / no-brands have been spontaneously combusting for well over a decade (and even the big brands get them wrong sometimes…).
 

HSTEd

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But no one in their right mind would have 240v anywhere near the bathroom

240V is already in almost all bathrooms.... in the ceiling.

I do wonder if it would be safer if you used an isolation transformer......
Or just a rock solid 5Vdc power supply in the house and huuuge aluminium busbars.
 

Bletchleyite

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240V is already in almost all bathrooms.... in the ceiling.

That it is, though the regulations require a certain level of insulation/water resistance (effectively) if it would be possible to touch a device from a wet area.

Of course a lot of houses still just have uninsulated bulb holders in the bathroom...

I do wonder if it would be safer if you used an isolation transformer......
Or just a rock solid 5Vdc power supply in the house and huuuge aluminium busbars.

With almost everything in the home other than kitchen appliances being low-voltage and low-current these days (most of it has some sort of wall wart, and I'm assuming a proper central heating system is fitted rather than plugging electric fires in), there's actually quite a good case for 12VDC or similar, with 230V in the kitchen only. Would massively improve safety, as you'd only be getting a belt if you stuck your tongue on it.
 

Crossover

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FWIW MacBook chassis are live at 230V if a non earthed charger is used (including the official one). You can feel a slight buzz. But it's deliberate, something to do with RF shielding, and it wouldn't kill you if you did stick it in the bath.

I wonder if the iPad is the same - the back of it feels electrified when plugged in to charge (with an official charger)
 

Bletchleyite

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I wonder if the iPad is the same - the back of it feels electrified when plugged in to charge (with an official charger)

Yes, I believe it is.

Interestingly, my work HP laptop (also a metal chassis with some sort of high voltage applied to the case) and Macbook, if close together and touched at the same time, can give you a noticeably uncomfortable jolt (unless you use the earthed long cable on the Macbook charger). Both of them are using manufacturer's original PSUs with no known faults.
 

Jonny

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The other problem is that newer power supplies tend to be of the switch-mode type; these rely on "chopping" the input (often with a local increase in frequency) and then smoothing it off, this means that as current levels change it is necessary to adjust the amount of chopping required based on monitoring the output voltage. Sometimes, there are no inductors involved, let alone a transformer - merely capacitors. Such power supplies have an additional advantage of being small and highly efficient. Therefore they are desirable for non-pecuniary engineering reasons.

A plausible scenario is:
Slight water leakage into phone/charger socket interface, voltage appears to drop, power supply overcompensates sending a short burst of high voltage through. This causes a brief electrical shock, possibly (or not) enough to kill but opening a passage through the body for the electricity. Further damage occurs as lower voltage (but higher amps) pass through the body.

Another issue is that phones may use other types of circuit to drive from a battery whose nominal voltage is lower than the circuitry. This could also end up "pumping" more electrical charge and energy through. A second, complimentary scenario based on this pumping effect is that electrical energy leaked back from the phone battery and contributed to the damage, particularly the extensive burns. It is quite possible to get internal burns as well.

A third issue would be that a surge as described above may cause "contractures", which are involuntary movements provoked by such electrical activity and means that someone is left holding onto the power source despite their best efforts otherwise. It may account for the deceased having burns to his hand.
 

Barn

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Looks like it has happened again:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/07/11/teenager-dies-charging-phone-bath/

The Telegraph said:
A Texas teenager has died using her mobile phone while lying in the bath, reports say.

Madison Coe, from Lubbock, was charging her phone when the device accidentally fell into the bathtub, KCBD reports.

The 14-year-old was in the bath at her father’s house in New Mexico, on July 9, when she either plugged her phone in or grabbed it as it charged, her family told the TV station.

Her grandmother Donna O’Guinn described the teenager as a “shining star” who loved music and basketball.

“There was a burn mark on her hand, the hand that would have grabbed the phone,” she said. “And that was just very obvious that that’s what had happened.

“This is such a tragedy that doesn’t need to happen to anyone else. And we want something good to come out of this … awareness of not using your cellphone in the bathroom as it is plugged in and charging.
 
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sk688

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imo , you should only ever use your phone in the bath if :

You are not charging it
It is waterproof and not water resistant

Awful news , to see that such a thing has happened again
 

Barn

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I still think it is not at all appreciated that "low voltage" supplies can be dangerous.

Most people (including me, to be honest) instinctively feel that mains electricity = very dangerous and charger outputs = completely and universally safe.
 

najaB

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Most people (including me, to be honest) instinctively feel that mains electricity = very dangerous and charger outputs = completely and universally safe.
This is compounded by the design of America sockets making earthing an extra cost (in the UK you have to have an earth pin even if it's plastic, whereas in the US earth pins and polarised plugs are a rarity) to which you add the fact that ground fault interrupters (RCDs to you and me) are few and far between.

Tragic all around.
 
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