Merseyrail Guard on Trial

[Ferret]

Just because that is what many teenagers do does not make her daughter less of a liability if she was so drunk that she could not look after herself. It was a tragic accident. No more, no less. Blaming the guard is not going to bring her daughter back.

Well, the Guard sounds as if he was unbelievably casual regarding his attitude to dispatch - it's one of those things where several factors cause a tragic accident. Of course, it seems that the primary contributing factor was the deceased being drunk, and on drugs which clearly affected her judgment. Let's not also forget that she was in breach of the Railway Byelaws at the time of her death - and that specific byelaw exists for the safety of all. But, and I hate to say it, the Guard is also partly responsible.

I do object though to the notion that getting ratarsed and stoned at the age of 16 should be seen as normal! What the hell has become of us?!

 

[tony6499]

That is the worrying thing that her parents thought that a 16 year old girl being off her head on drugs/alcohol is normal behaviour

 

[yorkie]

We have listened as our daughter was portrayed as being a drunken liability when, in all honesty, she did no more than what many teenagers do of a weekend - she went out to celebrate her friend's birthday."

If Paula Redmond thinks that it is acceptable for her daughter to consume so much alochol that the following effects are possible (based on the quoted concentration found in this case 236mg of alcohol per 100ml):

• Severe motor impairment
• Loss of consciousness
• Memory blackout

Then it is, in my opinion, that her daughter was indeed, to use her words "a drunken liability".

It is a fact she was "drunken". Was she a liability? That's more subjective, but if someone has consumed so much alcohol that the above effects are possible then for anyone not to describe that as a "liability" they must have a completely loopy definition of "liability."

"The only liability that night was a train guard whom Georgia had the catastrophic misfortune to encounter".

Absurd. In fact, it is the drunkenness of her daughter that caused this incident. Her daughter appears to have committed multiple byelaw offences, such as:

No person shall enter or remain on the railway where such person is unfit
to enter or remain on the railway as a result of being in a state of
intoxication
​

and

No person shall be in or on any train except the parts of it intended for use by
that person.
​

and possibly more.

"For he had very little, if any, regard at all for our daughter and her safety."

That may well be true (though I have my doubts, especially as she is spouting rubbish) but what about her daughter having regard for her own actions?

There are many situations where there is a potential danger and no "guard" type person to protect against it. To some extent we should be responsible for our own actions but this woman appears to be unwilling to accept that and place all the blame on the guard, which is wrong.

Is her message intended to be along the lines of "The train should have waited for however long it took for my daughter to lean on it, she is in no way to blame for this, she has the right to lean on the train delaying everyone, she is not responsible for her actions, being drunk is acceptable and normal practice for anyone that age, and the only person to blame for this is the guard for not shouting at her to stand back and for not waiting all day for her" because that's how it comes across to me!

And therein lies the problem with the attitudes so prevalent in modern society.

Absolutely, totally agreed.

 

[87015]

But hang on, are they supposed to wait at a station just because there's someone on the platform who could possibly fall between the train and the platform? No. I don't think so.

Depends on the TOC's safety manual. I'd be very surprised if the Merseyrail book hasn't been at the centre of this case on both sides.

And therein lies the problem with the attitudes so prevalent in modern society.

With respect, thats not the issue - was the train safely dispatched or not? It is not only drunk or drugged people that have been involved in very serious dispatch incidents and any of those incidents could have resulted in a fatality just like this one - and indeed do.

Terrible for the girl, terrible for the guard, likely to be terrible for the industry.

Ps. Was this before or after the serious Kings X incident which must have been around the same time?

 

[156441]

Appalling verdict and all the parents should be commenting on is the total lack of their commitment to parenting this tragic young lady.

What hasn't been said so far is there is a common 'game' on Merseyrail that these youngsters play with the guards which is what most staff in the area think this girl was playing. Basically one of the idiots jumps off the train and tries to get back on as the doors are closing. That is what this girl appears to have been doing at the previous couple of stops and has ultimately led to the guard making a poor decision.

Merseyrail management should also be hanging there heads in shame.

Can't wait to see the fall out this has for the rail industry.

Common sense. Lost somewhere in the last century RIP.

 

[trainophile]

It's the victim mentality isn't it? Things are always someone else's fault. There's a yellow line painted on the platform and she was on the wrong side of it.

Sorry but sad as this death is, my sympathies are all with the guard. He'll be mentally scarred for life, and jobless.

 

[YorkshireBear]

Parents need to get a grip, comments like that are highly unfair.
I think its unfair for any of us to comment fully unless we have seen the CCTV which i doubt many if not any of us have.

 

[Ferret]

With respect Mark, thats not the issue - was the train safely dispatched or not? It is not only drunk or drugged people that have been involved in very serious dispatch incidents and any of those incidents could have resulted in a fatality just like this one - and indeed do.

See my later post Count - I don't think the train was safely dispatched. I can't defend either side based on what I've read. What I am waiting to read is what the RAIB made of it, and I find it regrettable that we've had to wait for the criminal case to conclude before any recommendations to improve safety have been made.

 

[yorkie]

With respect Mark, thats not the issue - was the train safely dispatched or not? It is not only drunk or drugged people that have been involved in very serious dispatch incidents and any of those incidents could have resulted in a fatality just like this one - and indeed do.

That will be the legal issue in this case, but Paula Redmond has a very different agenda, and it's an agenda that I find abhorrent.

If she had said "My daughter made a big mistake, and paid the ultimate price for poor judgement, however the guard should still have prevented it" then that would have been a different matter.

 

[ANorthernGuard]

Although I do as a fellow guard have sympathy, however if we DO NOT do our job correctly, we leave ourselves open to a worst case scenario, and this sadly is what happened, to be proved Guilty of such a serious crime of Manslaughter would mean that there would have to be shown multiple accounts of the procedures NOT being followed, not just a mistake at one stop. with OTMR and CCTV we are constantly monitored officially or not and we are paid to do our job correctly, obviously the parents of the child who sadly died (and yes she was still a child) should take a of responsibilty for their daughters actions that led to this horrible horrible accident but sadly for the guard we have a duty of care and through not following procedures he did not show duty of care.

I do have sympathy for both parties, however they were both at serious fault and sadly again one paid with her life and the guard will have to live with it for the rest of his life.

No one can ever win in a situation like this

 

[Ferret]

That will be the legal issue in this case, but Paula Redmond has a very different agenda, and it's an agenda that I find abhorrent.

If she had said "My daughter made a big mistake, and paid the ultimate price for poor judgement, however the guard should still have prevented it" then that would have been a different matter.

Nail hit on the head. What makes it even worse is that I can see the same accident happening again one day, solely because such behaviour is seen as normal. As a society, we will never learn if we always pander to the lowest common denominator. Harsh, but true.

 

[185]

Although I do as a fellow guard have sympathy, however if we DO NOT do our job correctly, we leave ourselves open to a worst case scenario, and this sadly is what happened, to be proved Guilty of such a serious crime of Manslaughter would mean that there would have to be shown multiple accounts of the procedures NOT being followed, not just a mistake at one stop. with OTMR and CCTV we are constantly monitored officially or not and we are paid to do our job correctly, obviously the parents of the child who sadly died (and yes she was still a child) should take a of responsibilty for their daughters actions that led to this horrible horrible accident but sadly for the guard we have a duty of care and through not following procedures he did not show duty of care.

I do have sympathy for both parties, however they were both at serious fault and sadly again one paid with her life and the guard will have to live with it for the rest of his life.

No one can ever win in a situation like this

But consider, what's next? Imagine a drunken & drugged passenger wearing heels rolls down the side of your last job at Alderley Edge. You did your doors totally right, but didn't see them fall. Why weren't you looking? Is that negligence and could that also soon be manslaughter?

 

[nedchester]

Speaking outside court, Miss Varley's mother, Paula Redmond, 41, said: "Christopher McGee will complete his sentence and return to his family. Mine is now gone forever.

"We have listened as our daughter was portrayed as being a drunken liability when, in all honesty, she did no more than what many teenagers do of a weekend - she went out to celebrate her friend's birthday.

"The only liability that night was a train guard whom Georgia had the catastrophic misfortune to encounter.

"For he had very little, if any, regard at all for our daughter and her safety."

And therein lies the problem with the attitudes so prevalent in modern society.

I am lost for words.

 

[ANorthernGuard]

But consider, what's next. Imagine a drunken passenger rolls down the side at Alderley Edge. You did your doors totally right, but didn't see them fall. Why weren't you looking? Is that negligence and could that also soon be manslaughter?

First thing they would do is check the OTMR and look at times between doors closing/ ready to start etc. Through not only ALD but preceding stations

Then they would check CCTV

Witness statements etc.

The problem with the Merseyrail lad is they checked the OTMR and for numerous times before the incident procedures was not followed (found out from a CTM)

and thats why he was charged..and found guilty

This wasn't just a 1 mistake in a shift incident mate, if it was I would be defending the guard to the hilt.

 

[12CSVT]

Probably the worst miscarriage of justice in this country for many years.

Let's not also forget that she was in breach of the Railway Byelaws at the time of her death - and that specific byelaw exists for the safety of all.

Not only that, she was in breach of criminal law, ie. drunk and disorderly, and consumption of illegal drugs.

And that Merseyrail manager (Liam Willis) should be hanging his head in shame.

 

[transmanche]

It will be interesting to see if some TOCs issue instructions to despatch from a cab if you think think there is a risk of someone falling down the gap.

A couple of months ago I alighted from a train at London Bridge. Some friends were still on board, so we were chatting through the window. The platform dispatcher ordered [*] me to stand behind the yellow line, as "the train can't leave until you move behind the line". I wasn't leaning on or touching the train in any way.

I don't know if this is an official rule, or even one just local to that station. But I can see more of this happening after today's ruling - as no guard/dispatcher will want to take the risk.


[*]I won't say asked, as she shouted rather curtly

 

[Zoidberg]

... I find it regrettable that we've had to wait for the criminal case to conclude before any recommendations to improve safety have been made.

It doesn't seem to be as bad as you fear. According to the RAIB, embargoed versions of the report were provided to appropriate authorities to address safety lessons.

http://www.raib.gov.uk/publications/investigation_reports/reports_2012/report222012.cfm

We have issued embargoed copies of the final report to the Safety Authority (Office of Rail Regulation) and those involved in the accident so the safety lessons can be promulgated.

 

[ANorthernGuard]

What quite a few people here are forgetting is as Rail staff Guards like myself have a DUTY OF CARE. due to a case a few years ago, this puts the pressure on people like myself a hell of a lot more, BOTH parties made terrible mistakes one lost their life the other lost maybe in some ways more than that when the report comes out it will show why he was found guilty, I have made mistakes over the years, but to be found guilty of Manslaughter it would have to show it was more than just a one off, it would have to show a disregard for following procedure whether it goes from complacency to tiredness to culture, bottom line is thats what they would have needed to show.

 

[185]

A question about parental responsibilty - Apparently in law parents have some legal responsibility for the welfare of those under 17.

Why was the mother not prosecuted, child out after 11pm in an adult nightclub, on drugs, drunk and incapable, could that be considered to be neglect?

She seemed very quick to pass the buck onto Chris McGee, taking no responsibility herself.

 

[Ah1479]

It's not just drunks though. Take peak time commuters cramming platforms even when they don't want your train, pressing the door open even after the doors have closed, even forcing them open. At least the guard was able to stop the train when he saw the girl fall which gave the girl a chance. If it had been a DOO train....

 

[ANorthernGuard]

A question about parental responsibilty - Apparently in law parents have some legal responsibility for the welfare of those under 17.

Why was the mother not prosecuted, child out after 11pm, could that be considered to be neglect?

She seemed very quick to pass the buck onto Chris McGee, taking no responsibility herself.

I agree totally I wouldn't dare let any of my kids act like that especially at 16, sadly it has destroyed 2 lives, maybe instead of passing the buck she should look at herself for a bit. maybe she already has, who knows

 

[Captain Chaos]

Hate to bring it up but what are going to be the implications for DOO? Once past the mirror/monitor how is the driver going to know what has happened? Surely that potentially makes any DOO dispatch potentially dangerous going from this case?

 

[dstrat]

So the guy let the train go when she was leaning on it?

Don't see anything wrong with the judgment. Any particular details about the person is besides the point.

Surely the only time you let your train go is if there are people on the outside right by the train are trying to bash your train in or somebody on aboard?

 

[Jonfun]

@Captain Chaos: If the driver moved the train while he could see someone was leaning against it, yes, potentially. But if when he took power everyone was clear, it's unlikely they could find any negligence there.

 

[Dr.iver]

So the guy let the train go when she was leaning on it?

Don't see anything wrong with the judgment. Any particular details about the person is besides the point.

Surely the only time you let your train go is if there are people on the outside right by the train are trying to bash your train in or somebody on aboard?

Well I will tell you know on the DOO route I drive the train would never leave any platforms if everyone was onboard during the peak, I'm gonna be very interested to see what ASLEF make of this from a DOO point of view, I must have dispatched myself thousands of times with people next to doors pushing the buttons etc.

 

[ivanhoe]

A very tragic case. I can understand the grief of the family. I do feel though for the Guard. He never wanted anything like this on his watch. A custodial sentence is a gross error of judgement although maybe the Judge has no option. There is a duty of care by all rail staff but equally there is also a duty of responsible behavior by passengers. There are NO winners in this case.

 

[Flamingo]

A very tragic case. I can understand the grief of the family. I do feel though for the Guard. He never wanted anything like this on his watch. A custodial sentence is a gross error of judgement although maybe the Judge has no option. There is a duty of care by all rail staff but equally there is also a duty of responsible behavior by passengers. There are NO winners in this case.

Unfortunately, passengers are never held responsible for their actions. They are customers, so it is never their fault when anything nasty occurs, regardless of how much their actions and behaviour contributed to the incident.

If the TOC's and BTP grew a pair, and didn't make their overriding priority the reduction of delay minutes in the case of TOC's, and working 9 to 5 whenever possible in the case of BTP, then maybe the guard would have had somebody to call on to deal with a group of drunken drugged teenagers, and wouldn't have been afraid of the consequences of holding the train at a station until the BTP had turned up.

 

[bramling]

That will be the legal issue in this case, but Paula Redmond has a very different agenda, and it's an agenda that I find abhorrent.

If she had said "My daughter made a big mistake, and paid the ultimate price for poor judgement, however the guard should still have prevented it" then that would have been a different matter.

Listening to Paula Redmond's statement I can't help but feel physically sick.

We're still really none the wiser as to what Mr McGee may or may not have done at James Street that night, however there needs to be a much greater acceptance that the main cause of the incident was the massively injudicious behaviour of Miss Varley.

She allowed herself to get into a state where she was not fully in control of her actions, and then placed herself into a hazardous environment.

This isn't what everyone does on a Saturday night, and frankly it galls to hear the mother implying that Miss Varley's behaviour was somehow normal and acceptable. Yes she paid a disproportionate price for her behaviour, and for that the incident was a tragic accident, however the fact is that millions of other people manage to have a good time without ending up getting themselves into such a state that they end up doing themselves harm, and, worse, mess up the life of someone who was earning a living.

Obviously parental responsibility seems not to enter into the matter, however if I were the parent in a situation like this, I would be inclined to keep a dignified silence.

I sincerely hope Mr McGee is able to mount a successful appeal.

 

[transmanche]

A custodial sentence is a gross error of judgement although maybe the Judge has no option.

I think that in manslaughter cases (unlike murder) the judge has the complete range of sentencing options; from an absolute discharge up to life imprisonment. Although there are probably sentencing guidelines he/she has to follow.

 

[313103]

I will now be reviewing the way i dispatch my trains in future. I could have quite easily been involved in a similar incident only last week. My train arrived at a station and the train was in the platform a full 1 minute and 30 seconds before i decided to close the train doors, i stepped back onto the platform to do the safety checks it was as got back onto the train to close the local door (not the rear cab i hasten to add) i took a quick glance and saw a bloke swaying against the now closed doors two carriges further down, i suddenly stopped what i was doing and watched this bloke for a full one minute, then i shouted and rather curtly for him to move back and waited till he was well behind the yellow line before closing my local door and departing. On this occasion the person stayed behind the yellow line, next time i might not be so lucky.

When i am back at work on Friday (tomoz rest day) i will be raising this issue with the Head of Conductors for guidance as i do not want to see any Guard, Dispatcher or Driver being hauled before a Judge on Manslaughter charges.

Who knows RGS may now have to look at the dispatch procedure and see whether any changes need to be implemented.