Michael Gove wants to take us back in time with rubbish disposal

[NSEFAN]

Part of the reason many areas have recycling bins (stored outside the house) opposed to containers inside the house was due to people complaining they didn't have space inside their house to store everything for recycling between collections.

If collections are bi-weekly, then that's more reasonable. But even so I find it hard to believe that someone consumes so many whole bottles in a week that storage of these would be a real issue. At best it should require most people to just think of some way of storing them. A box in the kitchen or by the door would be adequate, for example.

 

[HSTEd]

Houses are rabbit hutches now.
Every square meter of surface or floor is precious.

 

[AM9]

Plastic used by manufacturers should attract a levy on the basis of it's recyclability/environmental impact. There are plastics that are made from completely bio-degradeable materials (e.g. corn starch) that can be used where manufacturers insist on plastic. Such use could attract a low or zero rated levy nullifying the additional initial cost of using them. Penalising those who make the wrong choice of materials/style packages is the most effective way of steering the usage in the right direction.

 

[Bletchleyite]

You don't really want that, do you?

Yes, I do. I want to see the block grant abolished and Council finances totally independent of national ones and controlled only by local democracy.

My council tax was going up by three or four times the rate of inflation before the current controls were put in place. Only after all these years of zero / minimal annual increases have the past excessive increases been caught up with by inflation.

If the increases are necessary, they are necessary. Local democracy will keep them within sensible bounds. Capping has done nothing but destroy local public services bit by bit. It is possibly one of the worst, most regressive policies of the recent Tory Governments, as loss of essential Council services hits the poor hardest (as the rich can afford to purchase those services privately).

 

[krus_aragon]

Then I would take my jug to the milk seller and ask for it to be filled from a large milk churn. Just like the old days. Can't see Tesco going for that one.

Alternatively, in Canada, milk can be bought in plastic bags. 1 litre bags are sold in fours (IIRC) at less than the price of a standard package (which is still the tetra-pack-style carton). A bag fits neatly into a specially designed plastic jug; cut the corner of the bag and then you can pour the milk out. (There's no need to wash the jug out as the milk is held in the bag.)

As a picture is worth a thousand words, here's an illustration:

You've still got the issue of how to recycle the plastic film used in the bag, but it does reduce the amount of packaging required, and the jug is by its nature reusable. Just goes to show that there are several possible approaches...

 

[Bletchleyite]

Costa Coffee use those, but they aren't common in the UK otherwise. One notable issue is that you can't close it.

 

[Domh245]

I remember there was a period not all that long ago when milk bags appeared in supermarkets, I seem to remember Countrylife (Butter ads starring Johnny Rotten) were doing them. I'm fairly certain that they had a lidded jug.

A bit of googling brings this up, which rings a bell:

 

[Jonny]

Houses are rabbit hutches now.
Every square meter of surface or floor is precious.

... which is why many people may be reluctant to store bottles.

 

[Jonny]

And a couple more pertinent questions:

Where are the pick-up machines going to go?

Are shop assistants going to be routinely asked to handle used bottles?

 

[Mojo]

Alternatively, in Canada, milk can be bought in plastic bags. 1 litre bags are sold in fours (IIRC) at less than the price of a standard package (which is still the tetra-pack-style carton). A bag fits neatly into a specially designed plastic jug; cut the corner of the bag and then you can pour the milk out. (There's no need to wash the jug out as the milk is held in the bag.)

As a picture is worth a thousand words, here's an illustration:

You've still got the issue of how to recycle the plastic film used in the bag, but it does reduce the amount of packaging required, and the jug is by its nature reusable. Just goes to show that there are several possible approaches...

I don’t see how this is more environmentally friendly. As you state, the bags are unrecyclable at most councils as opposed to the bottles and lids which are taken away. There is also the issue of what to do with the plastic jugs when they become damaged, or otherwise unusable.

People may remember Sainsburys sold Milk bags at some point within the past few years. It didn’t last long, initially prices per litre were less or equal to standard plastic bottles so I could be described as an early adopter, with frequent promotions including cheap or reduced price plastic caddy jugs. Jugs were slightly different to your photo and created a piercing in the bag, providing an airtight seal when not in use.

In addition to the milk bags which all had to go in the bin, I ammassed countless jugs which all got chucked too, as well as my fair share of spilt milk (cue comments based on the overused saying).

 

[HSTEd]

Yes, I do. I want to see the block grant abolished and Council finances totally independent of national ones and controlled only by local democracy.


If the increases are necessary, they are necessary. Local democracy will keep them within sensible bounds. Capping has done nothing but destroy local public services bit by bit. It is possibly one of the worst, most regressive policies of the recent Tory Governments, as loss of essential Council services hits the poor hardest (as the rich can afford to purchase those services privately).

So Westminster has effectively zero taxes and bits of the North of England are bankrupted by collosal tax rises to pay for their public service requirements?
Local taxation clike that will simply make London's dominance of the economy even worse.

 

[Clip]

Yes, I do. I want to see the block grant abolished and Council finances totally independent of national ones and controlled only by local democracy.



If the increases are necessary, they are necessary. Local democracy will keep them within sensible bounds. .

Tell that to those in the borough of Croydon who are having a terrible time with their councillors not listening to them and going against their wishes

 

[StoneRoad]

Local democracy is a bit of an oxymoron (like military intelligence) decisions tend to be made on the basis of special interests shouting the loudest - and, as some would say, doing so behind closed doors.

 

[PeterC]

I don’t see how this is more environmentally friendly. As you state, the bags are unrecyclable at most councils as opposed to the bottles and lids which are taken away. There is also the issue of what to do with the plastic jugs when they become damaged, or otherwise unusable.

Milk cartons are the easiest plastic items to recycle as the standard sizes and composition make them easy to sort.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

Alternatively, in Canada, milk can be bought in plastic bags.
1 litre bags are sold in fours (IIRC) at less than the price of a standard package (which is still the tetra-pack-style carton). A bag fits neatly into a specially designed plastic jug; cut the corner of the bag and then you can pour the milk out. (There's no need to wash the jug out as the milk is held in the bag.)

I remember there was a period not all that long ago when milk bags appeared in supermarkets, I seem to remember Countrylife (Butter ads starring Johnny Rotten) were doing them. I'm fairly certain that they had a lidded jug.

You've still got the issue of how to recycle the plastic film used in the bag, but it does reduce the amount of packaging required, and the jug is by its nature reusable. Just goes to show that there are several possible approaches...

I remember, fairly recently, liquid soap coming as a 'refill' flexible bag. That didn't last long. We shall pass over the rip-off that liquid soap is to the consumer. A passing fad to respond to a perceived 'big' consumer issue, in reality a small, vocal pressure group.

Returning to the proposed 'levy', I see from the BBC News site that it is to apply to all single-use bottles and cans. So, in answer to one post above, potentially there will be a large number of tins, trays, pots, bottles accumulating over the course of a week - depending on your lifestyle and household size. The photograph of a German machine on the BBC site states that it takes/recognises just two types of plastic bottle.

Tell that to those in the borough of Croydon who are having a terrible time with their councillors not listening to them and going against their wishes

Well, back in the day, Croydon were famous as the council not reliant on central government grant - because of the amount of office floorspace in the borough paying business rates which they could set as they pleased. They could, and did, do what they wanted so the government took control of business rates and introduced one of the many variants of capping there have been over the years.

As you correctly point out, local democracy is a sham anyway. To Bletchleyite. Say, like most areas, you have a two-party choice at election time. One party proposes a 20% hike in tax, and the other proposes 'only' a 15% hike, do you have a real choice? Until there is a 'none of the above, new candidates please' box to tick, democracy will remain a carve up between the usual suspects taking turns. Look at the widespread uproar when fortnightly collections were introduced, was the will of the people listened to?

 

[jonty14]

I live in Germany and the deposit system works. All supermarkets, petrol stations and smaller shops take the bottles. I save all my bottles and cash them in at the end of the month. A good supply of emergency funds.

 

[cactustwirly]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-43563164

So when I was little there was no plastic or cardboard recycling and bottles had to be taken to the bottle bank. Now we have the convenience of kerbside recycling bins but under Gove's plans if we continue to use them we'll be taxed for using them.

Except I still have to use the bottle bank, my council doesn't recycle glass bottles.

 

[jonty14]

Also what I have noticed since the deposit on cans and PET bottles in Germany started is the reduction of litter. So in that sense it works. I hope it would reduce the litter problem in the UK. In County Durham where I am from littering is a serious problem.

 

[AM9]

There is an issue with the practice of charging/refunding the deposit at the retail POS. Many buy their bottles of water etc., at pseudo trade centres such as Costco. How would a deposit be applied to that stock?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Milk cartons are the easiest plastic items to recycle as the standard sizes and composition make them easy to sort.

Believe it or not they get turned into (among other things) Polartec fleece!

 

[Bletchleyite]

As you correctly point out, local democracy is a sham anyway. To Bletchleyite. Say, like most areas, you have a two-party choice at election time. One party proposes a 20% hike in tax, and the other proposes 'only' a 15% hike, do you have a real choice? Until there is a 'none of the above, new candidates please' box to tick, democracy will remain a carve up between the usual suspects taking turns. Look at the widespread uproar when fortnightly collections were introduced, was the will of the people listened to?

Local politics is very accessible to newcomers compared with national - so if you aren't satisfied with the options (and feel others will be similarly dissatisfied), run yourself as an independent.

Re the bottled water thing, anyway, we really do need to discourage its sale in bulk for taking home (I do understand buying one when on the move because there sometimes isn't a viable option to fill a bottle or to carry one with you). Some tap water tastes manky (though the worst I've come across in Europe was in Sicily, not the UK), but the likes of Brita filters can solve this. Does anyone know out of interest what kind of environmental impact the various types of filter have in comparison? It can hardly be quite as bad.

 

[Dentonian]

Local democracy is a bit of an oxymoron (like military intelligence) decisions tend to be made on the basis of special interests shouting the loudest - and, as some would say, doing so behind closed doors.

How is that different to National democracy.

 

[StoneRoad]

How is that different to National democracy.

I don't think it is that different, just that National level elections tend to have a higher turnout.

One of my opinions is that if you didn't exercise your right to vote, then you have little right to complain about decisions ... something about there being no right to being taxed without the right to representation (and I know I've mangled the second saying !)

 

[krus_aragon]

I don’t see how this is more environmentally friendly. As you state, the bags are unrecyclable at most councils as opposed to the bottles and lids which are taken away. There is also the issue of what to do with the plastic jugs when they become damaged, or otherwise unusable.

I'd say they're more environmentally friendly than tetra-paks, which are the main packaging used for milk in North America. I accept that in general they're stronger on the 'reduce' (packaging) than the 'recycle' bit.

I had no idea that the milk bag approach had been trialled in the UK. (Mind you, Sainsburys don't have much of a presence here in North Wales.)

 

[Dentonian]

I don't think it is that different, just that National level elections tend to have a higher turnout.

One of my opinions is that if you didn't exercise your right to vote, then you have little right to complain about decisions ... something about there being no right to being taxed without the right to representation (and I know I've mangled the second saying !)

But that's the point. If you don't agree with any (or either) party's policies (or more accurately, record) then you feel its a wasted vote - but you still get taxed even if the money is being spent mostly against your wishes/interests. That's before you get into the practical argument of Labour always winning all elections wherabouts. I know you would then accuse us of apathy and if candidates were getting voted in by a few hundred or less, you would have a point. However, they invariably win by landslides.

To put it another way, elections to me are like Turkeys asking to choose between Thanksgiving or Christmas.

 

[HSTEd]

Penalising those who make the wrong choice of materials/style packages is the most effective way of steering the usage in the right direction.

Why not simply admit that you are demanding people change their behaviour by fiat and ban those materials?

 

[Baxenden Bank]

One of my opinions is that if you didn't exercise your right to vote, then you have little right to complain about decisions ... something about there being no right to being taxed without the right to representation (and I know I've mangled the second saying !)

No taxation without representation.

Whilst I agree we should cherish the fact that we can vote, and that people died to preserve that right, the problem is if you do vote but reluctantly, your vote is still seen to be supporting that candidate. Take the next US Presidentials. If 99% vote Clinton and 1% Trump, with no abstentions, then Clinton will not be saying 'what a fantastic protest vote showing how much Trump is disliked', rather she will say 'a landslide victory endorsing my manifesto'. Which is why I prefer a wide choice of candidates or a 'none of the above' option, so I can support my democratic right without being seen as supporting polices I don't actually agree with.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

Why not simply admit that you are demanding people change their behaviour by fiat and ban those materials?

I don't actually have a choice in the materials a manufacturer chooses to package their product in, only a choice to not buy that product. Milk from all shops that I know of comes in plastic cartons. Even the doorstep delivery is in plastic now I think. Anyway, instead of taking my jug down to the supplier, I have decided to fence the communal parking area and invest in my own cow. I shall sell on the surplus and various byproducts!

 

[StoneRoad]

No taxation without representation.

<snip>Which is why I prefer a wide choice of candidates or a 'none of the above' option, so I can support my democratic right without being seen as supporting polices I don't actually agree with.<snip>

Yep that's the saying ... thanks !

As for the snipped comment - several elections ago, I spoilt a paper by writing "None of the above" on it, more recently I have again considered using that option ! The local elections in a month or so may prove to be a case in point !

 

[NorthernSpirit]

Give it a few years and it will be like India. Hoards of children scrabbling around waste dumps and railway platforms looking for plastic bottles.

All part of the grand plan to return to Victorian Britain.

If its encoraging the young to get out and earn a living then I very much welcome it.