Mid platform signals

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najaB

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And another one... I was gazing out the window while on a train heading to Edinburgh and I just noticed that there's a lot of platform face and a H stop board at Markinch station that extend a good couple of carriage lengths beyond the signal (I think its EH605) in advance of the 3/4/6 car stop board. At first I thought it might be a repeater, but it was displaying a red aspect.

Has the signal been moved or would a HST occupy two berths were it to call at Markinch? Are there other examples of mid-platform signals that aren't there to sub-divide the platform?
 
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driver_m

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St Helens Central springs to mind. Set of trailing points in front to allow turnbacks (but isn't AC wired so now fairly useless). The old loco stock workings used to go past it.
 

ComUtoR

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Thameslink core section and now London bridge. They are being used as headway signals to increase capacity.
 

najaB

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P9/10 at Liverpool Street

P9-12 at Manchester Piccadilly
They're terminal platforms at Liverpool Street though, so the signal really does just effectively divide the platform, or does the driver have a platform starting signal behind them?
 

Railsigns

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I think the OP is asking for platforms with a signal located part-way along them and where there isn't also a signal at the end of the same platform.

Two stations that come to mind are Saltash and Alsager.
 

najaB

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I think the OP is asking for platforms with a signal located part-way along them and where there isn't also a signal at the end of the same platform.
Indeed, that was what I was thinking of.

I take it that when this is the case the driver is clear to move off as soon as the guard gives the off, as they have already passed the signal? Would the signal revert to danger while the train is stopped at the station because the front of the train is some distance past it?
 

MarkyT

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I think the OP is asking for platforms with a signal located part-way along them and where there isn't also a signal at the end of the same platform.

Two stations that come to mind are Saltash and Alsager.

At Saltash, the signal is set back from the double to single line turnout to provide a clear overlap of around 50m. Thus an up train can enter the station whilst a down train proceeds across the bridge and through the down platform.

At Alsager, the signal is also set back around 50m from the road edge at the level crossing. In this case it is a safety measure to mitigate the risk to road users of overrun.

In both cases I think the sections of platform beyond the signals are effectively out of use.
 

Cherry_Picker

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Cradley Heath has a signal not quite at the end of the up platform:


(image source)

If it's red then you can't get into the platform with a six car train, and six car trains stop there regularly in the peaks. I've never took the time to check why it's arranged like that but presumably it's to do with the level crossing being so close to the station.
 

edwin_m

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Attenborough has a signal part way along the platform - like Alsager this is due to the level crossing. It always used to be that normally the crossing would be closed and the signal cleared before the train arrived and it would pass the signal and stop near the crossing where the station entrance/exit is. However if the signal was red the train would have to stop at the other end of the platform. I'm not sure what happens post-resignalling as these days I hardly ever use a train that stops there.
 

306024

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Manningtree on the down road would appear to be similar to Cradley Heath. A 12 car EMU needs to pass the signal at the country end to get the whole train in the platform.
 

HarleyDavidson

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Well you could say that about Farncombe both ways, there's quite a few a fair way back from the end of the platform.

There used to be a signal half way along the platform at Horsham, there's definitely one on platform 1 at Surbiton.

Then there's a few at New Street and the infamous Xs at Temple Meads.
 

najaB

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To give an idea of how far the H stop board is from the signal, you can just about make it out in this street view image, and the signal is the other side of the bridge (behind the camera position).
 

pompeyfan

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Talking of signal spacing and level crossings and seeing as Harley has commented on this thread (although I'm not sure he still signs the line), on the line towards Cosham (coming from Fareham/Portchester) the signal immediately before the LC appears that trains should never actually stop at it, the local sequence always seems to be G-YY-Y-R-R, I assume this would be due to overlap, but it would seem odd to have that signal there as it does seem to serve any purpose.
 

Ianno87

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They're terminal platforms at Liverpool Street though, so the signal really does just effectively divide the platform, or does the driver have a platform starting signal behind them?

There's a crossover part way down the platform, so there's both:
-A 3 aspect starter signal on the platform end, and
-A 2 aspect (R/G) 'inner' starter signal to enable a shorter train to be in the platform and be clear of movements in/out of the adjacent platform via the crossover.


Manchester Piccadilly Platforms 13/14 have signals partway down. These do sub-divide the platform, but also act as 'drawing up' signals for the front parts of the platform and as main running signals for passing freight services in the normal signal sequence.
 
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Shepreth has one down at track level and a stopping train will be held at red until the level crossing barriers are down. The level crossing is right up against the station ramp on the down side.
 

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rower40

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Shipley platform 3 (used by Bradford to Leeds trains) has a signal that's not at the end, protecting Shipley East Junction and Dockfield Junction. The EMUs from Bradford Forster Square stop at it to perform station duties, but the HST or Mk4s to Kings Cross have to have it showing "proceed" before they can enter the station, as the "HST Stop" board is beyond it. This ties up the junction while the London trains are at a stand in the station.
 

RichardN

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There used to be a signal half way along the platform at Horsham, there's definitely one on platform 1 at Surbiton.


That Horsham mid platform signal reduces flexibility as it means that they can't join a 4 coach train to an 8 coach train in platform 4 due to the position of the AWS magnet. When out of course running means this happens, they have to find a driver to move the 8 coach into the headshunt, then let the driver of the 4 coach train know it needs to be stopped at the London end of the platform, then get the 8 back and coupled..

(Hopefully I've got the details right... I'm sure somebody will correct me if I'm wrong..)

I guess the signal is only there because a unit sitting at the end of P4 can't easily be seen from a train before it gets into the platform.
 

Deepgreen

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Redhill - platform 1 has a signal about 50m from the south end, as well as the starter, to protect the crossover from the freight loop.
 
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Attenborough has a signal part way along the platform - like Alsager this is due to the level crossing. It always used to be that normally the crossing would be closed and the signal cleared before the train arrived and it would pass the signal and stop near the crossing where the station entrance/exit is. However if the signal was red the train would have to stop at the other end of the platform. I'm not sure what happens post-resignalling as these days I hardly ever use a train that stops there.
The signal is at the end of the platform now. Since seldom anything longer than 2 cars stops there, it's location isn't an issue.
 

driver9000

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Indeed, that was what I was thinking of.

I take it that when this is the case the driver is clear to move off as soon as the guard gives the off, as they have already passed the signal? Would the signal revert to danger while the train is stopped at the station because the front of the train is some distance past it?

Yes, the Driver acts on the last aspect recieved when restarting the train. It is possible the signal will revert to danger once the front of the train has passed. This happens at the mid platform signals at Manchester Oxford Road.
 

Millisle

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Pitlochry up starter. The crossing loop begins to converge within the platforms owing to the proximity of a bridge. The up Highland Chietain is not booked to cross, but when an out of course crossing is required the last couple are off the platform against the ' Do Not Alight Here' signs. Actually as a correction to that, it is booked to cross on Sunday.
 
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HarleyDavidson

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Talking of signal spacing and level crossings and seeing as Harley has commented on this thread (although I'm not sure he still signs the line), on the line towards Cosham (coming from Fareham/Portchester) the signal immediately before the LC appears that trains should never actually stop at it, the local sequence always seems to be G-YY-Y-R-R, I assume this would be due to overlap, but it would seem odd to have that signal there as it does seem to serve any purpose.

It'll believe it's a closing up signal, a bit like the one's at the London end on the down at Woking. When used correctly you can have two trains about 1.5-2 coach lengths apart.

The PARS resignalling was and still is a farce. Under the old system based in the box at Southsea, there were just 4 SPAD traps, under PARS at Havant it jumped to 16! Some sections are so short that a 12 car fills 2 sections.
 
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OliverS

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Manningtree on the down road would appear to be similar to Cradley Heath. A 12 car EMU needs to pass the signal at the country end to get the whole train in the platform.

Are you sure about that? I can't ever recall an EMU stopping beyond the signal. Certainly the Norwich sets don't seem to but they may be shorter.
 

AndyPJG

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Cradley Heath has a signal not quite at the end of the up platform:


(image source)

If it's red then you can't get into the platform with a six car train, and six car trains stop there regularly in the peaks. I've never took the time to check why it's arranged like that but presumably it's to do with the level crossing being so close to the station.

Addlestone is the same, due to level crossing tight to the platform:

Addlestone Stn

Chertsey would be the same, except that the platform is only long enough for 4 coaches anyway. I believe the SB rules require the barriers to belowered prior to a train being signalled towards the platform signal.
 

GB

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Are you sure about that? I can't ever recall an EMU stopping beyond the signal. Certainly the Norwich sets don't seem to but they may be shorter.

The 12 car stop board is definitely beyond the down starter....though not by a great deal.
 
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