National Railway Museum to "dumb down" ?

[mumrar]

HST prototype power car, the turbine APT-E is out back somewhere, and of course Crewe Heritage did the job of preserving the APT-P in parts. I think the changes sound like a good idea, all of the people posting 'good old days' style tales is the attitude in preservation that will kill the preservation movement off, not preserve it. Like the fuddy duddies who all stood in the way of the bridging ideas for both Great Central lines, sentimental fools to a man. The interest of children and foreign visitors is paramount. Tailoring a railway museum to the likes of people who already know trains inside out is absurd!

 

[sprinterguy]

Isn't the APT in the main hall? Or is it the HST prototype?

That's the HST prototype power car. The gas turbine APT-E is at the NRM Annex at Shildon.

HST.. Bang up to date that is...Bit ironic really, going to museum to see a train you just travelled on to get there.

The HST power car in the NRM is not really representative of the HST the visitor to the NRM may have travelled on to reach York. The HST prototype was the development train for the HST project that saw only a few years of service before withdrawal, and it is quite right that at least a small part of that should be preserved. The production HSTs contained a number of developments following experience with the prototype train, and following the recent refurb of the HST power cars with MTU engines and new wiring, the similarities between the two are limited.

Actually, thinking about it...The Intercity 225 was developed from the APT project (Originally designated APT-U): The class 91 locos use the same technology as the APT power cars, and the mark 4 carriages were developed from the APT trailer carriages: So visitors to the NRM are much more likely to be travelling to York on a descendant of the APT than a relation of the HST prototype!

 

[Geezertronic]

mmm the APT, that great British transport revolution.. I can't turn for seeing them rushing up and down the UK's railway lines.

You must be turning in some funny places, where do they run these days?

HST.. Bang up to date that is...Bit ironic really, going to museum to see a train you just travelled on to get there.

You're just being pedantic now, get to the back of the queue

 

[stuartmoss]

I was there a couple of weeks back with a group of students, who were assessing how well the museum communicates in a variety of VARK (Visual, Aural, Read / Write & Kinaesthetic) formats.

It passed with flying colours in being able to communicate to audiences in all of these formats, but was heavily skewed in the kinaesthetic area. Apart from the spectacle of seeing these engines so up close and personal, their impact is lessened without adequate interpretation, so I can understand why the museum sees fit to make such changes.

I wrote this a couple of years ago on the subject of VARK and edutainment:

http://entplanet.blogspot.com/2007/10/edutainment-needs-to-be-vark.html

 

[Crossover]

When I saw the OP's comments, it did seem like a bad idea but having read the debate since, I can see the point as to why they want to make changes to make it hands on a little more (though Ellermans lines should stay as it demonstrates practically how the engines work)

As long as they leave the signalling centre in some form and therefore access to the balcony, it gives the enthusiasts somewhere to go too (I loved this bit when I was there a couple of years ago)

 

[Metroland]

You must be turning in some funny places, where do they run these days?




You're just being pedantic now, get to the back of the queue

Ignore him, he doesn't even like trains! I won't mention where the money that was going to be spent on the ATP went, and why we ended up selling the technology and buying it back. Or the reason the first one failed and where the engineers came from...

Actually I think improving the NRM to tell the story of how the railways changed Britain and the world is a good thing. Most people that go to the NRM are probably not your traditional railway enthusiasts, and how the railways affect (or affected) everyday life is probably more up their street.

 

[Failed Unit]

And to my mind the only reason to preserve a pacer is to learn from mistakes from the past and never repeat them in the future...

We actually agree about something Unfortunately rail is not the only industry that is going backwards in terms of speed and quality. Where is concord 2? Ryanair - yep the glory days of travel continue!

 

[MidnightFlyer]

I think that what they are going to do is best for the future: youngsters now are not interested in steam etc as much as the youth of yesteryear are. It is sad to see the traditional museum change, but it is for the best.

Haven't checked out Search Engine yet - looks good!

 

[YorkshireBear]

HST prototype power car, the turbine APT-E is out back somewhere, and of course Crewe Heritage did the job of preserving the APT-P in parts. I think the changes sound like a good idea, all of the people posting 'good old days' style tales is the attitude in preservation that will kill the preservation movement off, not preserve it. Like the fuddy duddies who all stood in the way of the bridging ideas for both Great Central lines, sentimental fools to a man. The interest of children and foreign visitors is paramount. Tailoring a railway museum to the likes of people who already know trains inside out is absurd!

I'm intregued as to what you mean? you mean the bridging the gap project? who stood in way of that?

 

[At_traction]

mmm the APT, that great British transport revolution.. I can't turn for seeing them rushing up and down the UK's railway lines.

And this is related to the topic of railway museums in exactly what way...?
It was simply a step too far given largely the economic and political circumstances at the time, nothing more. Even air travel can have its white elephants, as the French and British taxpayers of the 1960s and 1970s know...

HST.. Bang up to date that is...Bit ironic really, going to museum to see a train you just travelled on to get there.

A piece of the mixture of museum exhibitions spanning the development of rail technology. Merely shows the success of the HST traction/carriage concept most succintly, in use (mostly) unaltered after 35 years.


As for the topic itself , I think that the tone of reception for the topic start must have been in no small way due to the starter's reputation , but he's not totally off the scent. Depending of course largely on the amount of space dedicated to the interactive exhibitions and the changes to the flow of the place, it is possible to make too large a shift towards an up-to-date display, into a Portsmouth Dockyard's Action Stations. Like. Innit. The question is of course about everyone's preferred proportion between any museum's role as a retainer of articles of the past and (entertaining) educator of generations to come, stuffy and presumably not so stuffy. Both take floorspace.

 

[Tom B]

When the LT Museum re-opened a few years ago after the CGP, there was some criticism from enthusiasts about it; however, like I suspect the NRM, most of their revenue doesn't come from enthusiasts, but from tourists. (LTM have a depot at Acton which is geared towards enthusiasts, which contains most of the collection; but still there is quite a high percentage of 'normal' visitors). Of course, enthusiasts must not be forgotten - I like the new annex to the NRM which contains loads of their collection that can't be on display. If the NRM was geared towards the whims of people on here, it would probably close down within a year through lack of visitors!

 

[tbtc]

If the NRM was geared towards the whims of people on here, it would probably close down within a year through lack of visitors!

Can you imagine...

 

[Metroland]

And just to be controversial, rather like the heritage railways that insist on running blue diesels all the time. 80% of the visitors to heritage railways are tourists wanting to get an impression of a past (different?) way of life, not enthusiasts that remember the 'golden days' of 70s BR.

A lot of heritage railways have had to bring in steam to get the revenue, likewise the NRM has to appeal to a wider base, enthusiasts while important, on their own; cannot support these things.

 

[jonhewes]

Can you imagine...

Although I'm in favour of new initiatives to make the railway museum more appealing to children and non-enthusiasts, I do feel that replacing historic exhibits with interactive displays will dilute the significance of the musuem and detract from the historical integrity of the NRM it's self, which in my opinion is a piece of modern day living history.

Would it not make better sense to house the interactive displays in a separate, purpose built building, rather than sacrificing precious space in a building purpose built for the storage of both static and operational rail vehicles?

I have always been under the impression that the railway museum's main objective is to conserve historical railway artifacts, hardware and literature. In an era when there is barely enough space to accomodate existing exhibits, I find it somewhat perverse that there are now plans to reduce capactiy and displace some of the exhibits with samey interactive presentations and displays.


On a recent visit to Steam in Swindon, I was disappointed (and frustrated) by the design, layout and presentation of the museum. The whole place was designed with one thing in mind – catering for non-enthusiasts – at the expense of those who are interested in viewing historical exhibits, railway hardware, or simply trains! I find the concept of the NRM adopting a similar format to be completely abhorrent!

Having spent the past eight years working within business process outsourcing, the cynic inside me tells me that NRM+ initiative is the Brainchild of a “Director” or “Business Manager” currently in employment with the NRM, simply looking to put their mark on the place and beefing up their CV in the process. The key problem being, is that they are permanently desecrating a unique and historic attraction.

 

[caliwag]

Before they do anything they should install a decent ventilation system...you get a half-term holiday crowd of families in there (on a rainy day), and you'd think you were visiting a farm.
But if they are making it really authentic they need are a few live locos just simmering away giving a notional feel of a running depot...the magic of going round a working steam shed...OK with all the gloom, mess, steam and cursing that went on in the bowels of an MPD. That would be the real experience!
If they are redesigning the whole place, that's essential or what's the point?

Happy to give em a helping hand, and er a few memories if they want!!:roll:
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Sorry, just an afterthought. What everyone needs to realise is that there is an entire industry out there based around museum design...a degree course natuarlly, which is why, when you go to a museum/gallery, you are forced to weave around a specified route as opposed to following your nose, gut, feeling...or indeed curiosity.

Watch out for the "history of the railways" route through York...bu++er that.

 

[mumrar]

I'm intregued as to what you mean? you mean the bridging the gap project? who stood in way of that?

I've spoken to many people in the GCR southern section who said that the project was never going to get off the ground to certain fossils were removed from the board. Elsewhere I've seen similar things first hand, preserved lines so far up their own that they are working against each other for their own selfish pride, rather than the good of preservation.

 

[YorkshireBear]

but i cant even understand why they'd want to stop that! it makes it a main line again it just doesnt make sense.
Well that why projects such as Don Valley etc etc never take off

 

[caliwag]

Come on...can we start another thread for "the Gap": nothing to do with the museum boys!

 

[mumrar]

Fair point, I was merely using the point to illustrate that just because people on here don't think NRM's plans are good (I realise it's not everyone who thinks it) doesn't mean they won't work well. The idea of freshening up the visitor experience should stop the museum stagnating, because once that starts, with falling visitor numbers it's harder to get funding to make the required changes and it becomes a vicious circle.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

I'd agree that Ellerman Line should remain on display in the Great Hall; it is one of the most educational and informative exhibits they have. If anything, they should section a 37 or a 47 and an 86 ( there are plenty of these available ) and display them next to Ellerman Line.

 

[Justin Smith]

I went to the NRM today and it was quite enlightening.
The first few people (on the main reception) I asked about the proposed changes didn't know half the stuff which is due to occur ! A bit of work on employee communications may be needed there I feel....
When I found someone who knew more about it, the thrust of the RWM report is correct but, if what I was told is right, it's a tad misleading. During the work only the Great Hall will be closed. The turntable might be boarded over "but may still be operational". Some of the removed locos may be kept on site but moved into the other hall, or even into an extension. The sectioned loco Ellerman Lines may well be removed from the Great Hall (which, interestingly, the chap I spoke to didn't really agree with either, so there's more than just me who thinks it's one of the most interesting exhibits there ! ) but should hopefully be kept on the site somewhere else. Ironically it hasn't worked (as in the wheels and motion turn) "for about a year, it need fixing". Surely that should be a fairly high priority ?

I have to say the museum was reasonably busy for a day mid week out of the school holidays, and everyone, including the women and children, seemed to be interested in the exhibits as they are.
If it ain't broke don't fix it ?

 

[LE Greys]

I remember going there the first time, they had two turntables and an awful lot of locomotives sitting round them, with not much interpretation around them. They moved the whole lot over the other side of Gernon Road for the previous refit, whenever that was, and now they want to do it again after only just opening the new section up at Shildon. Probably they were considering the "Steam" museum in Swindon, which to me was an unfortunate development in what could have been a very nice display of Great Western engineering (although we have Didcot just up the line for that) with a bit of real loco restoration going on. Still, it's hugely popular, so they're probably thinking more along the lines of getting more people through the doors than pleasing hardcore steam fanatics (who have plenty of preserved lines to go to anyway). So it's a solid commercial decision, but that doesn't mean we have to like it.

 

[jon0844]

Don't forget that Justin Smith is on a personal crusade of complaining to try and make sure everything railway related in this country stays in the past.

I can't wait for the NRM to install the new seat pitch exhibit, showing how seats have got bigger and smaller over the years.

Or the hall-of-faults area, sponsored by Bombardier, where you can see all the recent production disasters (warning; it's expected that it will be delivered up to six months late).

I just hope FCC doesn't sponsor the PA system, although I suppose it will be useful to know that the train at platform 3 at York isn't stopping and to stand clear - despite being half a mile up the road.

(Oh, and BTW, I am fully for any museum upgrading and adapting!).

 

[Lampshade]

Personally, I think the revamp is a good idea - an organisation such as the NRM is not going to make such a move if it hadn't done its homework and listened to feedback. It's not 'dumbing down' by any stretch of the imagination, it's not like they're replacing the descriptions in front of the exhibits with "this is a train".

 

[tbtc]

Personally, I think the revamp is a good idea - an organisation such as the NRM is not going to make such a move if it hadn't done its homework and listened to feedback. It's not 'dumbing down' by any stretch of the imagination, it's not like they're replacing the descriptions in front of the exhibits with "this is a train".

I think renaming it the National Choo-Choo Museum and putting a "Thomas" face on the front of each loco is taking things a bit far though...

 

[Justin Smith]

Personally, I think the revamp is a good idea - an organisation such as the NRM is not going to make such a move if it hadn't done its homework and listened to feedback. It's not 'dumbing down' by any stretch of the imagination, it's not like they're replacing the descriptions in front of the exhibits with "this is a train".

Why do so many people think that large organisations always know what they`re doing........

 

[90019]

Why do so many people think that large organisations always know what they're doing........

Maybe because in the majority of cases they do.

 

[Greenback]

Why do so many people think that large organisations always know what they're doing........

When large organisations do make mistakes, and there are far fewer errors made than successes in things like revamps (the most obvious to my mind being Consignia!) they are usually quick to put things back again.

 

[mumrar]

Why do so many people think that large organisations always know what they`re doing........

How can one individual who has never ran a museum, or surveyed or seen the results of surveys carried out on visitors to a museum, think he knows so much better than an organistaion that has been running a museum successfully for decades whilst not charging an entrance fee?

 

[theblackwatch]

Why do so many people think that large organisations always know what they`re doing........

The fact that the Manchester Museum of Science and Industry won an award for the best tourism site at the Northwest Tourism Awards in 2008 would seem to dispell your argument that the NRM does not know what it is doing.

(And if you do not know the connection between MOSI and the NRM, you need to do some research.)