National Routeing Guide update

[infobleep]

Two easements were added to the routeing guide today (17/11).

700677 (Fare route) During engineering works on the 19 and 20 November 2016, tickets routed (00810) NOT VIA READING, to, from or via Oxford and Didcot Parkway to Bristol and South Wales on Great Western trains, may travel via Reading and Reading West. This Fare route easement will apply in both directions.​

This allows some people to avoid the buses between Didcot and Swindon this weekend. If you have a "not via Reading" ticket from Bicester to Weston-super-Mare with which you plan to make some of the journey on a Chiltern train, that doesn't include you.

700678 (Routeing Point) To ensure journey planners override the NFM64 fares check and provide itineraries to Stamford Hill, Stoke Newington, Rectory Road, Hackney Downs, London Fields, Cambridge Heath and Bethnal Green on tickets routed (00005) VIA VICTORIA LINE and (00000) ANY PERMITTED, from Haringay, Hornsey, Alexandra Palace and from origins beyond Alexandra Palace. This routeing point easement will apply in both directions​

This easement is unusual for a "Routeing Point" easement, as it doesn't contain an explicit statement of what is being allowed by it.

Hackney Downs and Alexandra Palace are routeing points themselves (and so cannot be affected by this easement), and the other stations mentioned are variously associated with London, Hackney Downs and Seven Sisters on the one hand, and Finsbury Park, Alexandra Palace, Stevenage and routeing points beyond Stevenage on the other. I can only imagine that this easement ensures that some or all of these are valid.

---


If you have the old files available (or are able to obtain them), pdftotext and diff will get you a long way. The thing I use puts everything into an inconveniently large database at the same time, but the part which deals with that side of things could be separated out.

Sorry I mean the updates the ATOC would put out. As there is a list of recent additions I was wondering how this might get generated? Would someone do a sense check of it before it get published?

Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk

 

[mildertduck]

Leeds to London no longer valid via York? That is ridiculous.

It certainly is a bit odd, especially for stations (e.g. Garforth) on the line between York and Leeds, when going via York is often the most obvious choice. Also... why Stansted, I wonder?

 

[kieron]

Some more changes were published yesterday (18/11).

Permitted route changes:

Leeds Group (G16) to London Group (G01) gain AY DO+SY KY​

This adds some mapped routes via York and some via Mexborough.

Compared with the version from Monday (14/11), there are no longer mapped routes:
via South Milford; or
ones via Sherburn-in-Elmet and Selby which avoid Harrogate.
There are now mapped routes:
via Mexborough; and
via Stansted.

Easements added:

700679 (Map) During engineering works between 24 December 2016 and 02 January 2017, customers travelling from Diss and Stowmarket to or via central London may travel via Bury St Edmunds and Cambridge to both London Liverpool Street and London Kings Cross. This map easement will apply in both directions​

There are no trains through Shenfield then. Tickets from Needham Market and stations south of there are unaffected, and someone travelling from Elmswell or Thurston would already be permitted to do it via Cambridge.

The easement doesn't make clear whether or not someone wishing to travel to both London Liverpool Street and London Kings Cross would be permitted to use London Underground to go between them.

700680 (Map) During weekend engineering works from the 04 to 12 February 2017, temporary permitted routes from Leeds to London St Pancras via Grantham and Nottingham will be in operation. This map easement will apply in both directions​

There are engineering works between Peterborough and Biggleswade, then, as well as others between Leicester and Kettering. Some London-Leeds trains are scheduled to go via London Kings Cross-Hitchin-Cambridge-Ely-Peterborough, and some via London Kings Cross-Kettering-Corby-Oakham-Leicester. I don't know who a route via Grantham and Nottingham is intended to help at the moment.

I do note that NRE does not list London Kings Cross-Leeds trains as being on a valid route for someone travelling from London to Kirkstall Forge over those weekends.

---

Why not as Bicester Village to Weston Super Mare is routed 00810 Not Via Reading so it would be covered surely as it would usually go via Oxford, Didcot and Bristol?

The ticket doesn't go to Bristol or South Wales. It goes via Oxford, but only part of this journey is on Great Western Railway trains. Taking the diversion into account, someone with that ticket could go via Oxford on Chiltern and Crosscountry trains.

---

Sorry I mean the updates the ATOC would put out. As there is a list of recent additions I was wondering how this might get generated? Would someone do a sense check of it before it get published?

ATOC stopped publishing a list of recent additions when they moved the list they had to the new page. As the more recent entries on that page contain explanatory text which isn't included in the routeing guide itself, I don't think it would be possible for anyone else to create it without ATOC's assistance.

 

[bb21]

Seeing how kieron publishes these changes and these are closely monitored, perhaps he can also publish some spoof ones to keep those at the company (whoever are now subcontracted to maintain the NRG) busy?

 

[Starmill]

No it isn't. I asked about this a while ago and it seems it's only allowed on LM+XC tickets and not on Any Permitted (I wanted to go one way via Leighton Buzzard and the other way direct via Leicester), I've just double checked the maps and it hasn't changed since I asked.

Controversial view whoever said that. Is there a written easement? It's either a permitted route or it's not, and it absolutely was a mapped route for a long time.

 

[adrock1976]

Is that the famous route that Stagecoach/Virgin Trains WC stamped their feet about and got it withdrawn?

 

[kieron]

Some more changes were published yesterday. This time, however, a summary was published for it here.

New dataset RJRG0438 published 23 November 2016

15 Map sequence(s) added

Barnsley (BNY) and Grantham (GRA) - added sequence 'AM+SH+ED'
Barnsley (BNY) and Grantham (GRA) - added sequence 'BB+ED'

13 sequence(s) removed

Barnsley (BNY) and Grantham (GRA) - removed sequence 'HO+GL'
Barnsley (BNY) and Grantham (GRA) - removed sequence 'PR+DL'​

This journey no longer has mapped routes via Nottingham.
It now has mapped routes via Worksop.

Barnsley (BNY) and NEWARK GROUP (G47) - added sequence 'AM+SH+GL'
Barnsley (BNY) and NEWARK GROUP (G47) - removed sequence 'HO+GL'​

This journey no longer has mapped routes via Swinton (Yorks).
It now has mapped routes via Worksop.

Barnsley (BNY) and NOTTINGHAM GROUP (G43) - added sequence 'BB+GL+DG'
Barnsley (BNY) and NOTTINGHAM GROUP (G43) - added sequence 'BB+GL+KS'
Barnsley (BNY) and NOTTINGHAM GROUP (G43) - added sequence 'NB+DL'​

This journey now has mapped routes via Doncaster.

DERBY GROUP (G09) and Meadowhall (MHS) - added sequence 'DY'
DERBY GROUP (G09) and Meadowhall (MHS) - removed sequence 'SY'

Derby Group (G09) to Worksop (WRK) gain DY+SH lose MM+SH
Grantham (GRA) to Worksop (WRK) gain ED lose LN
DERBY GROUP (G09) and Worksop (WRK) - added sequence 'DY+SH'
DERBY GROUP (G09) and Worksop (WRK) - removed sequence 'MM+SH'
Grantham (GRA) and Worksop (WRK) - added sequence 'ED'
Grantham (GRA) and Worksop (WRK) - removed sequence 'LN'​

No effect.

DERBY GROUP (G09) and Swinton (South Yorks) (SWN) - added sequence 'DY+SH'
DERBY GROUP (G09) and Swinton (South Yorks) (SWN) - removed sequence 'SY'​

This journey no longer has mapped routes via Wakefield.

Doncaster. (DON) and Grantham (GRA) - added sequence 'DO+KS'
Doncaster. (DON) and Grantham (GRA) - removed sequence 'GH+DL'​

This journey no longer has mapped routes via both Retford and Seaford.

Doncaster. (DON) and NOTTINGHAM GROUP (G43) - added sequence 'GH+DL'
Doncaster. (DON) and NOTTINGHAM GROUP (G43) - added sequence 'GL+DG'
Doncaster. (DON) and NOTTINGHAM GROUP (G43) - removed sequence 'ED+DL'​

This journey no longer has mapped routes via Derby.
It now has mapped routes via Burton Joyce and via Swinderby (in other words, using the line through Newark Castle).

Grantham (GRA) and Meadowhall (MHS) - added sequence 'ED+MS'
Grantham (GRA) and Meadowhall (MHS) - added sequence 'KS+NB'
Grantham (GRA) and Meadowhall (MHS) - removed sequence 'DL+PR'
Grantham (GRA) and Meadowhall (MHS) - removed sequence 'ED+HO'​

This journey no longer has mapped routes via Derby or via Wakefield.

NOTTINGHAM GROUP (G43) and Worksop (WRK) - removed sequence 'AN+LN'
NOTTINGHAM GROUP (G43) and Worksop (WRK) - removed sequence 'DG+JL'​

This journey no longer has mapped routes via Derby.

1 map(s) changed
Map NB - NOTTINGHAM TO BRADFORD VIA SHEFFIELD changed (0 added/ 1
removed links)​

This removes the link between Derby and Nottingham groups via Long Eaton and Attenborough. The map still contains an indirect link via Chesterfield.

This change affects a number of possible journeys:

Barnsley (BNY) to Derby Group (G09)
Derby Group (G09) to Guide Bridge (GUI)​

These journeys no longer have mapped routes via Nottingham.

Bradford Group (G03) to Nottingham Group (G43)
Halifax Group (G39) to Nottingham Group (G43)
Huddersfield Group (G40) to Nottingham Group (G43)​

These journeys no longer have mapped routes which go via Church Fenton, Pontefract and Derby.

Barnetby (BTB) to Nottingham Group (G43)
Chesterfield (CHD) to Nottingham Group (G43)
Nottingham Group (G43) to Habrough (HAB)
Nottingham Group (G43) to Meadowhall (MHS)
Nottingham Group (G43) to Retford (RET)
Nottingham Group (G43) to Sheffield (SHF)
Nottingham Group (G43) to Swinton (South Yorkshire) (SWN)​

These journeys no longer have mapped routes via Derby.

Pontefract Group (G22) to Nottingham Group (G43)​

This journey no longer has mapped routes via Derby except for ones via Wakefield.

Nottingham Group (G43) to Guide Bridge (GUI)
Nottingham Group (G43) to Hazel Grove (HAZ)​

These journeys no longer have mapped routes using the line between Belper and Chesterfield.

Nottingham Group (G43) to Kirkham & Wesham (KKM)
Nottingham Group (G43) to Preston (PRE)​

These journeys no longer have mapped routes via both Derby and Meadowhall.

3 easement(s) added For Engineering works

Added 700681: During engineering works between the 24 December 2016 and
21 May 2017, customers travelling to or via Stratford (London) from
Brentwood may not travel via Shenfield. this negative circuitous route
easement applies in both directions​

700366 was changed last week to remove the easement which enabled this to happen during that period. It may be that that didn't work as well as anticipated.

Added 700682: During weekend engineering works affecting the East Coast
Mainline, tickets priced on fare route (00430) EC & CONNECTIONS may
travel via Wellingborough to London and beyond. This fare route easement
applies in both directions​

I can only imagine that you're supposed to know when the engineering works are by the fact that you can buy advance tickets routed that way.

Added 700683: During engineering works between 24 and 29 December 2016
affecting journeys into London Paddington. Tickets from Worcester,
Evesham and other origins on the route to Oxford may travel to London
Marylebone via Oxford and Princes Risborough. This map easement will
apply in both directions.​

If you travel to London via Oxford and Princes Risborough, your origin is automatically on the route to Oxford, or at least on your route to Oxford.

6 easement(s) removed Time Expired
Removed 700661: During engineering works on Sundays 18 September 2016,
30 October 2016 and 06, 13 and 20 November 2016 the route through
Swindon will not be available. Alternative routeing via Newbury and
Reading will be used to destinations such as Oxford, journeys on fare
route NOT VIA READING (00810) will be permitted to travel via Reading .
This positive fare route easement applies in both directions
Removed 700663: During engineering works on Sundays 30 October 2016
and 06, 13 and 20 November 2016, affecting the route through Swindon.
Journeys from South Wales and Bristol to Oxford on tickets routed
(00810)NOT VIA READING will be permitted to travel via Reading on Great
Western services only. This fare route easement to apply in both
directions.
Removed 700666: Between 19 September and 20 November 2016 customers
using Club 55 promotional fares routed (00085) TPE ONLY travelling from
Newcastle and stations south of Newcastle on TPE services may travel via
Manchester for onward connecting TPE services to destinations whose
permited routes do not include via Manchester. This fare route easement
applies in both directions.
Removed 700667: Between 19 September and 20 November 2016 customers
using club 55 promotional fares routed (00085) TPE ONLY travelling from
Newcastle and stations south of Newcastle may travel via Leeds for
onward connecting TPE services to destinations whose permitted routes do
not include via Leeds. This fare route easement applies in both directions.
Removed 700668: Between 19 September and 20 November 2016 customers
using Club 55 promotional fares routed (00085) TPE ONLY travelling from
Newcastle and stations south of Newcastle may travel via Preston for
onward connecting TPE services to destinations to the north of Preston
whose permitted routes do not include via Preston. This fare route
easement applies in both directions
Removed 700677: During engineering works on the 19 and 20 November
2016, tickets routed (00810) NOT VIA READING, to, from or via Oxford and
Didcot Parkway to Bristol and South Wales on Great Western trains, may
travel via Reading and Reading West. This Fare route easement will apply
in both directions.​

All temporary easements for dates in the past, as per the comment.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Some more changes were made to the routeing guide today.

New dataset RJRG0439 published 25 November 2016

Easements added

Added 700684: NFM64 fares checking is preventing journey planners showing fares priced on (00000) ANY PERMITTED from Harrogate, Hornbeam Park, Pannal and Weeton to destinations via Shrewsbury up to and including Hereford and Ffairfach. This routeing point easement will override the check and apply in both directions.

Added 700685: NFM64 fares checking is preventing journey planners showing fares priced on (00000) ANY PERMITTED from Starbeck and Knaresborough to destinations via Shrewsbury up to and including Hereford and Ffairfach. This routeing point easement will override the check and apply in both directions.​

These are identical except for the Yorkshire stations in the second one being further east.

The shortest routes between these pairs of stations all go via Shrewsbury, but some of the pairs didn't have mapped routes.

The easements don't say which routeing points are now valid. Shrewsbury is a routeing point, but only one station associated with it is in the direction of Hereford or Ffairfach.

As well as adding the above easements, dates have been added to easement 700682. It now reads:

700682 (Fare route) During weekend engineering works from 04 to 12 February 2017, affecting the East Coast Mainline, tickets priced on fare route (00430) EC & CONNECTIONS may travel via Wellingborough to London and beyond. This fare route easement applies in both directions​

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Another set of changes was made today.

New Dataset RJRG0440 published 30 November 2016

Change of map sequence between Routeing Points

Princes Risborough (PRR) and South Ruislip (SRU) -added sequence 'SM'
Princes Risborough (PRR) and South Ruislip (SRU) - removed sequence 'GC'​

No effect.

To prevent circuitous routeings via Stansted airport

Added 700686: Customers travelling from stations Bishops Stortford to Broxbourne inclusive to London Liverpool Street and beyond, may not travel via Stansted Airport. This negative circuitous easement applies in both directions​

As far as I can tell, this wasn't a valid route for journeys to London Terminals, but was for some longer distance journeys.

3 easement(s) removed
000042: Journeys from or via London to Bicester North may not go via Bicester Town and journeys from or via London to Bicester Town may not go via Bicester North. This prohibition applies in both directions.
030132: Journeys to Bicester North may not go via Oxford and Bicester Town. Journeys to Biceser Town must go via Oxford. These easements apply in both directions.
700301: Customers travelling from London Marylebone to Bicester Town, Islip or Oxford in possession of tickets routed "Any Permitted" may not travel via Bicester North. This easement applies in both directions.​

These were all the negative easements which mention Bicester. Easements 700598 and 700630 still affect journeys via Oxford Parkway. 700598 only affects journeys taken before 11/12, as trains are scheduled to resume between Bicester and Oxford then.

 

[kieron]

Another update was published to the routeing guide yesterday.

New dataset RJRG0441 published 08 December 2016

Changes following the start of the direct Chiltern services from Oxford to London Marylebone. including changes to map GC adding a link between OXF and PRR Routeing Point). Deleting a link between Oxford and G58 Banbury Group Routeing Point on map LH

Map sequence(s) added:

Ascot (Berks) (ACT) and Rugby (RUG) - added sequence 'WV+SM'


Deleted Map sequence(s)

Ascot (Berks) (ACT) and Rugby (RUG) - removed sequence 'WV+MW+GC'​

This journey no longer has mapped routes:
via Birmingham; or
via Woking.

BANBURY GROUP (G58) and EALING BROADWAY GROUP (G77) - added sequence 'BB+GW'
BANBURY GROUP (G58) and EALING BROADWAY GROUP (G77) - removed sequence 'LH'
BANBURY GROUP (G58) and HAYES & HARLNGTN GP (G75) - added sequence 'BB+GW'
BANBURY GROUP (G58) and HAYES & HARLNGTN GP (G75) - removed sequence 'LH'
LONDON GROUP (G01) and BANBURY GROUP (G58) - added sequence 'GW+BB'
LONDON GROUP (G01) and BANBURY GROUP (G58) - removed sequence 'LH'
LONDON GROUP (G01) and BANBURY GROUP (G58) - removed sequence 'WX+LH'​

These journeys no longer has mapped routes via Wokingham.

And, as always, altering routes to and from London Group alters the routes available for a number of other journeys (to or from Banbury, here) via London.

Ash Vale (AHV) and Rugby (RUG) - added sequence 'MW+SM'
Ash Vale (AHV) and Rugby (RUG) - added sequence 'WW+SM'
Ash Vale (AHV) and Rugby (RUG) - removed sequence 'MW+GC'
Ash Vale (AHV) and Rugby (RUG) - removed sequence 'MW+WM'​

This journey no longer has mapped routes via Nuneaton.
It now has mapped routes via Bracknell.

BANBURY GROUP (G58) and Gloucester (GCR) - added sequence 'BB+LH'
BANBURY GROUP (G58) and Gloucester (GCR) - removed sequence 'LH'
BANBURY GROUP (G58) and Hereford (HFD) - added sequence 'BB+LH'
BANBURY GROUP (G58) and Hereford (HFD) - removed sequence 'LH'
BANBURY GROUP (G58) and Maidenhead (MAI) - added sequence 'BB'
BANBURY GROUP (G58) and Maidenhead (MAI) - removed sequence 'LH'
BANBURY GROUP (G58) and Slough (SLO) - added sequence 'BB'
BANBURY GROUP (G58) and Slough (SLO) - removed sequence 'LH'
BANBURY GROUP (G58) and Twyford (TWY) - added sequence 'BB'
BANBURY GROUP (G58) and Twyford (TWY) - removed sequence 'LH'
Rugby (RUG) and Salisbury (SAL) - removed sequence 'GC+MW'
Rugby (RUG) and Wokingham (WKM) - removed sequence 'GC+MW'​

No effect.

Guildford (GLD) and Rugby (RUG) - added sequence 'WV+SM'
Guildford (GLD) and Rugby (RUG) - removed sequence 'MW+GC'
Guildford (GLD) and Rugby (RUG) - removed sequence 'MW+WM'​

This journey no longer has mapped routes via Farnborough North.
It now has mapped routes via Ascot.

LONDON GROUP (G01) and Hereford (HFD) - added sequence 'GC+LH'
LONDON GROUP (G01) and Oxford (OXF) - added sequence 'GC'
LONDON GROUP (G01) and WORCESTER GROUP (G35) - added sequence 'GC+LH'​

These journeys now have mapped routes via High Wycombe.

2 map(s) changed

Map GC - LONDON TO WORCESTER VIA HIGH WYCOMBE AND BIRMINGHAM changed (1 added/ 0 removed links)​

This map now includes Oxford, with a link to Princes Risborough.

Map LH - LONDON TO HEREFORD changed (0 added/ 1 removed links)​

This map no longer includes Banbury, which had a link to Oxford.

I don't think these map changes have any effects beyond those mentioned above.

1 easement(s) added

700687: Customers travelling from or via Reading to East Croydon and London Terminals on tickets routed (00000) ANY PERMITTED may not travel via Reading Bus and Gatwick Airport. This negative circuitous route easement applies in both directions​

I'm not exactly sure where Reading Bus is, but at least this makes a change from Heathrow.

In addition to the above, a number of stations have lost an association with some of their neighbouring routeing points, as follows:

Bicester Village (BIT) has lost an association with Banbury Group (G58).
Islip (ISP) has lost an association with Banbury Group (G58).
Oxford Parkway (OXP) has gained an association with Oxford (OXF).​

This means that these are now all associated with Oxford and Princes Risborough. This does not, of course, affect the customer's ability to take the shortest route to stations further north.

Watford North (WFN) has lost an association with Bedford Midland (BDM).
Watford North (WFN) has lost an association with West Hampstead Thameslink (WHP).
Garston (Hertfordshire) (GSN) has lost an association with Bedford Midland (BDM).
Garston (Hertfordshire) (GSN) has lost an association with West Hampstead Thameslink (WHP).
Bricket Wood (BWO) has lost an association with Bedford Midland (BDM).
Bricket Wood (BWO) has lost an association with West Hampstead Thameslink (WHP).
How Wood (Hertfordshire) (HWW) has lost an association with Bedford Midland (BDM).
How Wood (Hertfordshire) (HWW) has lost an association with West Hampstead Thameslink (WHP).
Park Street (PKT) has lost an association with Bedford Midland (BDM).
Park Street (PKT) has lost an association with West Hampstead Thameslink (WHP).
St.Albans Abbey (SAA) has lost an association with Bedford Midland (BDM).
St.Albans Abbey (SAA) has lost an association with West Hampstead Thameslink (WHP).​

These are now only associated with Watford Junction.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Watford North (WFN) has lost an association with Bedford Midland (BDM).
Watford North (WFN) has lost an association with West Hampstead Thameslink (WHP).
Garston (Hertfordshire) (GSN) has lost an association with Bedford Midland (BDM).
Garston (Hertfordshire) (GSN) has lost an association with West Hampstead Thameslink (WHP).
Bricket Wood (BWO) has lost an association with Bedford Midland (BDM).
Bricket Wood (BWO) has lost an association with West Hampstead Thameslink (WHP).
How Wood (Hertfordshire) (HWW) has lost an association with Bedford Midland (BDM).
How Wood (Hertfordshire) (HWW) has lost an association with West Hampstead Thameslink (WHP).
Park Street (PKT) has lost an association with Bedford Midland (BDM).
Park Street (PKT) has lost an association with West Hampstead Thameslink (WHP).
St.Albans Abbey (SAA) has lost an association with Bedford Midland (BDM).
St.Albans Abbey (SAA) has lost an association with West Hampstead Thameslink (WHP).​

These are now only associated with Watford Junction.

Another utterly ludicrous change that prevents passengers from obtaining any through fares for journeys via St Albans that barely make sense at all by any other route.

This practice needs to be stopped. If the issue is people travelling to London via St Albans at a lower fare than from St Albans, or revenue distribution, the fares need routes adding to avoid the issue, not this kind of block being imposed.

 

[SickyNicky]

Another utterly ludicrous change that prevents passengers from obtaining any through fares for journeys via St Albans that barely make sense at all by any other route.

You'll still get through fares for journeys that are shorter than the shortest route possible by rail alone. At least, you should!

 

[Andrew1395]

Another utterly ludicrous change that prevents passengers from obtaining any through fares for journeys via St Albans that barely make sense at all by any other route.

This practice needs to be stopped. If the issue is people travelling to London via St Albans at a lower fare than from St Albans, or revenue distribution, the fares need routes adding to avoid the issue, not this kind of block being imposed.

How do people from the Thameslink stations cope without Watford Junction as a Routeing Point for journeys in the opposite direction? Presumably local journey rules where they shared a common Routeing point? If that is the case they need to make WFJ as a Routeing point for St Albans City. On another thread the usage of the St Albans Abbey branch has been discussed. It is very low, possibly because the half hour walk between the two St Albans stations puts most people off. As an aside aren't all the fares from branch origins to off branch destinations either via Watford Junction or Via St Albans Abbey anyway or are they all Any Permitted?

 

[kieron]

You'll still get through fares for journeys that are shorter than the shortest route possible by rail alone. At least, you should!

As none of the maps show it, that may very well be the only way a ticket could have a permitted route via the walk between St Albans and St Albans Abbey.

As an aside aren't all the fares from branch origins to off branch destinations either via Watford Junction or Via St Albans Abbey anyway or are they all Any Permitted?

It depends where you're going, I think. The only tickets from stations on the branch to Harlington are "+via London" ones. As easement 700434 states that these are not valid via St. Pancras and St Albans, it's not obvious to me where they can be used.

 

[adrock1976]

Regarding the "+ via London" tickets, would the route be via Euston, then walk to Euston Square, Metropolitan Railway (Underground) to West Hampstead, and walk to Midland Railway station for Thameslink northbound?

 

[Paul Kelly]

Regarding the "+ via London" tickets, would the route be via Euston, then walk to Euston Square, Metropolitan Railway (Underground) to West Hampstead, and walk to Midland Railway station for Thameslink northbound?

I think that would avoid St Pancras, but it wouldn't avoid St Albans.

 

[Bletchleyite]

You'll still get through fares for journeys that are shorter than the shortest route possible by rail alone. At least, you should!

How far can a mandatory walk be before it isn't considered the shortest route?

 

[Merseysider]

How far can a mandatory walk be before it isn't considered the shortest route?

How many worms in that can you're opening?

 

[John @ home]

How far can a mandatory walk be before it isn't considered the shortest route?

The distance between two railway stations is not a factor in determining whether a "walk" between those stations (or travel by any means other than rail) may form part of one railway journey.

I am not aware of any current, comprehensive list of such pairs of stations published by the railway industry. My understanding is that the information can be derived from the electronic fares data, which is in the public domain.

The method I use to determine whether there is an authorised walking link between any two stations is to check the fares for local journeys which would use the link. In this instance, PARK STREET - HARPENDEN has fares routed VIA ST ALBANS AB and more expensive fares routed ✠ VIA LONDON. This indicates to me that, for at least some journeys, St Albans Abbey - St Albans (City) is an authorised walking link.

Given this authorised walking link, it seems to me that the changes in new dataset RJRG0441 which delete the association of the six stations on the St Albans Abbey line with routeing points Bedford and West Hampstead Thameslink amount to a material change in the railway network for routeing purposes. As such, it should not have been implemented by the Rail Development Group without the prior authority of the Department for Transport. Before granting such authority, I would expect the relevant minister to seek assurance that the changes are wholly consistent with the assurances given to Parliament at the time of the introduction of the National Routeing Guide on the integrity of the railway network for routeing and ticketing purposes.

 

[mm333]

Some more changes were published yesterday (18/11).

700680 (Map) During weekend engineering works from the 04 to 12 February 2017, temporary permitted routes from Leeds to London St Pancras via Grantham and Nottingham will be in operation. This map easement will apply in both directions​

There are engineering works between Peterborough and Biggleswade, then, as well as others between Leicester and Kettering. Some London-Leeds trains are scheduled to go via London Kings Cross-Hitchin-Cambridge-Ely-Peterborough, and some via London Kings Cross-Kettering-Corby-Oakham-Leicester. I don't know who a route via Grantham and Nottingham is intended to help at the moment.

On 4 February, EMT are running hourly St Pancras-Nottingham-Grantham services.

 

[Andrew1395]

How far can a mandatory walk be before it isn't considered the shortest route?

Walks in timetable data only have time and no distance. They are not considered by the Routeing guide at all, but the fixed time is used by journey planners to calculate shortest time options. Therefore the reference in the NRCC to shortest route specifically excludes fixed links like walks.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Walks in timetable data only have time and no distance. They are not considered by the Routeing guide at all, but the fixed time is used by journey planners to calculate shortest time options. Therefore the reference in the NRCC to shortest route specifically excludes fixed links like walks.

So in that case there are no Permitted Routes at all from the Abbey Line services via St Albans now?

That is silly.

 

[Starmill]

How far can a mandatory walk be before it isn't considered the shortest route?

How many worms in that can you're opening?

As there no longer appears to be an official list (given the London connection times table has been deleted from the NRT), then I can only assume any walk is permitted. How else are you going to work it out?

Sometimes it's quicker to walk between South Milford and Sherburn-in-Elmet. 1.8 miles or about 35 minutes. A considerable distance, but just 10 minutes more than St Albans Abbey to St Albans City, and probably easier to navigate.

 

[FenMan]

So in that case there are no Permitted Routes at all from the Abbey Line services via St Albans now?

That is silly.

In my naivete I've always assumed that where a route including a walk is shorter than the shortest route entirely by rail then it is valid for tickets marked Any Permitted.

I have some experience of this, living close to Farnborough North - Farnborough Main and North Camp - Ash Vale. On board staff and those on the gateline at Farnborough Main are fine with this.

 

[kieron]

Regarding the "+ via London" tickets, would the route be via Euston, then walk to Euston Square, Metropolitan Railway (Underground) to West Hampstead, and walk to Midland Railway station for Thameslink northbound?

Thanks, that would avoid the easement. I haven't been able to check how journey planners see it as I haven't been able to get an itinerary involving a route between Euston and West Hampstead on the Underground from one, only ones via Euston and St. Pancras. This surprised me a little, as, unlike Kentish Town-anywhere, there is at least a time listed for a Euston-West Hampstead transfer by Underground.

On 4 February, EMT are running hourly St Pancras-Nottingham-Grantham services.

Thanks. I must have been looking at the wrong date for this.

 

[Bletchleyite]

In my naivete I've always assumed that where a route including a walk is shorter than the shortest route entirely by rail then it is valid for tickets marked Any Permitted.

I have some experience of this, living close to Farnborough North - Farnborough Main and North Camp - Ash Vale. On board staff and those on the gateline at Farnborough Main are fine with this.

And it appears if you search for Park Street to Luton it does send you via St Albans...so unless this has been reversed there must be something else?

Edit: it looks like they have changed it back or added an easement. Park Street to Sheffield now appears to be valid via St Albans again on the NRE planner. Same with Leicester, which I'm sure wasn't at the weekend.

 

[John @ home]

it looks like they have changed it back or added an easement. Park Street to Sheffield now appears to be valid via St Albans again on the NRE planner. Same with Leicester, which I'm sure wasn't at the weekend.

Agreed. Yet another example of a change being undone after feedback from this forum? I suggest we wait a few days to see whether the association of the six stations with Bedford and West Hampstead routeing points is restored.

 

[bakerstreet]

Train app won't let me buy any ticket from park street to mill hill broadway or Hendon or radlett. What a strange thing they've done !


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[Starmill]

Train app won't let me buy any ticket from park street to mill hill broadway or Hendon or radlett. What a strange thing they've done !

This has been the case for a number of years. There is simply no fare. Exactly what happens if someone turns up at Radlett and wants a ticket to How Wood is anyone's guess. It's a perfectly feasibly journey and there is only one obvious route...

 

[Bletchleyite]

This has been the case for a number of years. There is simply no fare. Exactly what happens if someone turns up at Radlett and wants a ticket to How Wood is anyone's guess. It's a perfectly feasibly journey and there is only one obvious route...

Indeed seems to be the case. How bizarre.

I guess a split at St Albans is mandatory - but then you get into it not being a continuous journey so being stuck in the event of disruption.

 

[Andrew1395]

And it appears if you search for Park Street to Luton it does send you via St Albans...so unless this has been reversed there must be something else?

Edit: it looks like they have changed it back or added an easement. Park Street to Sheffield now appears to be valid via St Albans again on the NRE planner. Same with Leicester, which I'm sure wasn't at the weekend.

A journey planner like RJIS will use the walk to create a shortest journey after splitting the journey (if priced via St Albans Abbey). It would then look for a link (the walk in place of a map or actual railway line location link) to calculate a journey length. Seeing the zero miles link between the two St Albans stations it would then calculate the journey from SAC. The easement stops travel to London via SAC. The fares priced via London with a cross London marker will work via Euston and St Pancras.

 

[kieron]

A new easement was published this morning.

New dataset RJRG0442 published 16 December 2016

Added engineering works easement for Merseyrail

700688 Due to engineering works, between 03 January 2017 to 12 February 2017 and 30 May 2017 to 18 June 2017; rail replacement services will not call at Birkenhead Hamilton Square. Tickets priced on (00369 VIA BIRKENHEAD, will be valid on rail replacement services that call at Birkenhead Central. This fare route easement applies in both directions​

This was, I suppose, added for journey planners, as Birkenhead Central is in Birkenhead anyway. I don't think any "via Birkenhead" tickets are valid via Birkenhead North, so the buses on that route aren't an issue.

The rail replacement bus for 5th February mentioned here doesn't appear to be on journey planners yet, so it's not yet possible to tell whether they show a "via Birkenhead" ticket as being valid for it.