Northern Class 170's

[eastwestdivide]

... anyone know how many units will be required...

Back of the envelope calculation says you'd need 6 just for Sheff-Brid services, but a few of those continue on to Scarborough, so it's not that straightforward. Might not be 170s on all of the "Sheffield semifast Hull and beyond" services I suppose.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Despite being all-shacks they do get to stretch their legs on the Huddersfields so it's a shame they'll be going once the 195s start and free up the 185s loaned to Northern.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Back of the envelope calculation says you'd need 6 just for Sheff-Brid services, but a few of those continue on to Scarborough, so it's not that straightforward. Might not be 170s on all of the "Sheffield semifast Hull and beyond" services I suppose.

Is Sheffield-Hull-Bridlington earmarked to be a Northern Connect route? If so I'd expect 158s to be the mainstay.

 

[PomWombat]

The Sheffield-Hull route is being added to Connect, with 13 trains each way.

The improvements listed in the Northern franchise site http://maps.dft.gov.uk/northern/index.html mention a new Leeds-Brid service, of 12 trains per day.

Combining the two, I suspect a good chunk of the existing Sheffield-Brid services will stop at Hull instead, as a Connect service, and their paths to Brid handed over to the Leeds trains.

 

[Mollman]

Back of the envelope calculation says you'd need 6 just for Sheff-Brid services, but a few of those continue on to Scarborough, so it's not that straightforward. Might not be 170s on all of the "Sheffield semifast Hull and beyond" services I suppose.

I think the idea is that Scarborough will go hourly as the Hull terminator with the Sheffield service always terminating at Brid.

 

[Ianigsy]

With all the talk of Northern's random unit generator, I did smile on Thursday evening when I saw 170459 allocated to the 1659 Leeds-Knaresborough...

 

[Class455]

Is it known when Northern are due to stop loaning a Class 170 to TransPennine Express for the Leeds to Huddersfield service?
Since West Midlands Trains are getting rid of a large batch of 170's in a couple of years, I wonder if Northern would be interested in taking those on to maybe replace some of its Sprinters and they could be used on lines such as the Penistone Line (which is due 3 car 150's)?

 

[LOL The Irony]

Is it known when Northern are due to stop loaning a Class 170 to TransPennine Express for the Leeds to Huddersfield service?
Since West Midlands Trains are getting rid of a large batch of 170's in a couple of years, I wonder if Northern would be interested in taking those on to maybe replace some of its Sprinters and they could be used on lines such as the Penistone Line (which is due 3 car 150's)?

IIRC it's when Northern stop needing 185's.

 

[sprinterguy]

Since West Midlands Trains are getting rid of a large batch of 170's in a couple of years, I wonder if Northern would be interested in taking those on to maybe replace some of its Sprinters and they could be used on lines such as the Penistone Line (which is due 3 car 150's)?

There is a requirement for Northern to take on at least 18 x 2-car class 170 equivalents by December 2022, so the West Midlands 170 fleet would seem to be a shoe-in for that. They're intended as additional capacity rather than Sprinter replacement.

 

[PomWombat]

Are there additional services expected for these units to cover in 2022? Or are they more likely to be used in multiple to grow capacity on existing services?

 

[Andrew Nelson]

Despite being all-shacks they do get to stretch their legs on the Huddersfields so it's a shame they'll be going once the 195s start and free up the 185s loaned to Northern.

On the "Huddersfields" the 185s aren't loaned to Northern.
The 170s are loaned to Transpennine.

 

[Andrew Nelson]

Is it known when Northern are due to stop loaning a Class 170 to TransPennine Express for the Leeds to Huddersfield service?
Since West Midlands Trains are getting rid of a large batch of 170's in a couple of years, I wonder if Northern would be interested in taking those on to maybe replace some of its Sprinters and they could be used on lines such as the Penistone Line (which is due 3 car 150's)?

3 car 150s?

There are only 2 (001 and 002) that are three cars.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

On the "Huddersfields" the 185s aren't loaned to Northern.
The 170s are loaned to Transpennine.

You misunderstand me... I meant the 170 loans on LDS-HUD will end when the 185 hire-ins end in the North West.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

3 car 150s?

There are only 2 (001 and 002) that are three cars.

However Northern plan to create a number of 3-car sets by sticking half a /2 in the middle of a /1, as was done both in Manchester and (more consistently) in Birmingham in the past.

 

[sprinterguy]

3 car 150s?

There are only 2 (001 and 002) that are three cars.

The Northern franchise agreement details Northern's intention to form up to sixteen 3-car hybrid 150 formations, as used to operate in the West Midlands and North West, primarily to replace the 3-car class 144s I believe.

Are there additional services expected for these units to cover in 2022? Or are they more likely to be used in multiple to grow capacity on existing services?

I'm reasonably confident that they're for additional capacity on existing services.

 

[Andrew Nelson]

You misunderstand me... I meant the 170 loans on LDS-HUD will end when the 185 hire-ins end in the North West.

Why don't TPX take back the 185s, and use them on the Hudds Stopper, OR, even better, give the stopper back to Northern.

If Northern did the stopper, then they could integrate it with the Wakefield service, and not have to frankly 2-4 min's turnaround at Huddersfield it has now.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Why don't TPX take back the 185s, and use them on the Hudds Stopper, OR, even better, give the stopper back to Northern.

If Northern did the stopper, then they could integrate it with the Wakefield service, and not have to frankly 2-4 min's turnaround at Huddersfield it has now.

The short turnaround on Wakefields is also temporary: the service was cut back to Kirkgate to free up a unit, but the medium-term plan is to extend it to Normanton and Casvegas. This will require a second unit again which in turn should allow a longer turnaround at Huddersfield.

AFAIK the Summer 2018 timetable on TPE North is still the long-term plan, with the skip-stop pattern West of Huddersfield returning, along with the current stoppers being joined again. I agree that the all-stops (or most-stops, as was) Huddersfield to Leeds services are a poor fit for TPE, but it (in any form) won't go back to Northern during this franchise period.

 

[Andrew Nelson]

The short turnaround on Wakefields is also temporary: the service was cut back to Kirkgate to free up a unit, but the medium-term plan is to extend it to Normanton and Casvegas. This will require a second unit again which in turn should allow a longer turnaround at Huddersfield.

AFAIK the Summer 2018 timetable on TPE North is still the long-term plan, with the skip-stop pattern West of Huddersfield returning, along with the current stoppers being joined again. I agree that the all-stops (or most-stops, as was) Huddersfield to Leeds services are a poor fit for TPE, but it (in any form) won't go back to Northern during this franchise period.

So northern are going ahead with the two trains per hour WKK-Cas, only a few min's apart, as opposed to up to WKF, where people actually wanted to go.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

So northern are going ahead with the two trains per hour WKK-Cas, only a few min's apart, as opposed to up to WKF, where people actually wanted to go.

I imagine they'll try for an even(-ish) spread of services where possible (though paths through Mirfield will probably mean the current 5min/55min spread stays between MIR and HUD ).

Loadings are down on the Wakefield service since it was cut back, but they'd dropped a fair bit 15-20 years ago anyway, since Leeds became a more useful interchange for London services.

 

[Andrew Nelson]

I imagine they'll try for an even(-ish) spread of services where possible (though paths through Mirfield will probably mean the current 5min/55min spread stays between MIR and HUD ).

Loadings are down on the Wakefield service since it was cut back, but they'd dropped a fair bit 15-20 years ago anyway, since Leeds became a more useful interchange for London services.

Leeds loads a good half hour onto a London journey, compared to the old Wakefield Westgate change.

And with the May TT change, a number of stations passengers can no longer get to London at a decent time before 9.30am. (previously it was about 8.30am).

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Leeds loads a good half hour onto a London journey, compared to the old Wakefield Westgate change.

And with the May TT change, a number of stations passengers can no longer get to London at a decent time before 9.30am. (previously it was about 8.30am).

Though Huddersfield to Leeds has two connections per hour (with currently 5 fast options from Huddersfield if you need more time to connect) with the added bonus of a greater chance of a decent seat at LDS, as London services almost all start there.

 

[Andrew Nelson]

Though Huddersfield to Leeds has two connections per hour (with currently 5 fast options from Huddersfield if you need more time to connect) with the added bonus of a greater chance of a decent seat at LDS, as London services almost all start there.

As I said, the first service many can catch NOW is about an hour later. (There are stations other than Huddersfield you know).
Also, as I said, going via Leeds is about half an hour longer than before via Wakefield.
And, more expensive too.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

As I said, the first service many can catch NOW is about an hour later. (There are stations other than Huddersfield you know).
Also, as I said, going via Leeds is about half an hour longer than before via Wakefield.
And, more expensive too.

I know, I'm local to one of them (and not one which is served by GC). It's unfortunate but there's always a sacrifice to be made for improvements elsewhere.

I'd also forgotten that this was the 170 thread, which we've rather drifted from. Apologies for that!

 

[Andrew Nelson]

I know, I'm local to one of them (and not one which is served by GC). It's unfortunate but there's always a sacrifice to be made for improvements elsewhere.

I'd also forgotten that this was the 170 thread, which we've rather drifted from. Apologies for that!

The GC service gets to London only about half an hour later than the one via Leeds.

One would wonder if there was any reason why Northern no longer facilitate changing at Wakefield, as they run direct services (GC).

I know it's the DfT, ORR etc.

 

[ben2012]

I'm sure I read some where that scotrail are keeping more 156s is this true and am I right in thinking that these was ment to be going to northern if this is the case what are northern going to do about replacing them

 

[LOL The Irony]

I'm sure I read some where that scotrail are keeping more 156s is this true and am I right in thinking that these was ment to be going to northern if this is the case what are northern going to do about replacing them

1. Wrong place. go to the Northern Refurb thread.
2. More 769's? Damnit! Well the 156's ScotRail are sending us are sheds on wheels.

 

[Mordac]

All the 156s which were supposed to come from ScotRail to Northern have already transferred. There were five other 156 units which ScotRail was meant to be sending off-lease, but with no takers. Those are probably the ones you're thinking of.

 

[Hals]

View media item 3327Scotrail liveried 170455 spotted speeding through Hessle leaving Hull this afternoon. Managed a quickly snatched shot.

 

[rich r]

This morning the usual Class 170 on the Selby-Leeds route was replaced by a refurbished Class 158. Anyone know if this it temporary, or whether the 170s have moved on?

 

[PomWombat]

We're now seeing the same occasional substitution on the Harrogate line. Sometimes a 3-car 158, sometimes a 2-car short-form. This morning, though, everything I saw was a 170 as normal.

It looks like they've spread the 170s around enough that they can run out some days.