• Our booking engine at tickets.railforums.co.uk (powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Northern Class 331: Construction/Introduction Updates

Status
Not open for further replies.

Bantamzen

Established Member
Joined
4 Dec 2013
Messages
9,726
Location
Baildon, West Yorkshire
Excuse me if this is a load of local wibble, but an article has come out saying how 6 coach trains will be used on the Wharfedale line

http://www.ilkleygazette.co.uk/news/16273242.The_train_now_arriving_is___too_long_/

This isn't surprising as the introduction of 331s on the Airedale line wouldn't have left enough 333's to cover the rest of the electric Northern services around Yorkshire with the departure of the Dusty Bins.

This looks like a follow up to an article in the Bradford Telegraph & Argus:

DESPERATELY-needed longer trains are at last being introduced on the Airedale line – but most platforms are too short to take them.

Frustrated campaigners have long pressed for action to ease chronic overcrowding on the busy rail route, which carries around nine million passengers a year.

But it is feared that without extended platforms, passenger safety will be put at risk and there will be a deterioration in services.

Operator Northern has confirmed that six-carriage trains are planned on the line.

However, whilst the platforms at Keighley and Skipton stations will be able to accommodate them, those at other stops along the route won't.

"It's a recipe for disaster," said the Rev Tim Calow, chairman of the Aire Valley Rail Users Group.

"Different coaches will be on the platform at different stations and passengers will be totally confused as to where on the train they should be.

"The Airedale line is one of the most overcrowded in the UK. Many trains will be too full for passengers to be able to make their way along them to access the correct coach to alight.

"Passengers will be in the wrong part of the train and unable to leave at their station, resulting in them being carried over. They will then have to return to the required station, delaying their journeys and causing anger.

"Inevitably, some passengers will operate the emergency door release at stations in order to get off. This will put at risk their personal safety, as the drop from the train to trackside is large. And there will be major delays to services whilst staff attempt to reset the emergency systems and deal with 'offenders'."

Northern says the introduction of longer trains is part of a major modernisation plan, and that it is working with Network Rail to identify what work may be required.

A spokesman added: "At stations where the train is longer than the platform, we are aiming to operate selective door opening, a safe operation that is commonplace across the UK."

Network Rail confirmed it was working with train operating companies to prioritise required work in support of new rolling stock and timetable changes.

It concurred that where platforms were shorter than the trains, only selected doors would be opened.

Mr Calow claimed there was clear evidence of a north-south divide in transport investment.

"Platform extensions are essential for longer trains in the south-east yet they are too expensive for Yorkshire," he added.

"We are currently seeing disruption to train services across the north of England and this failure to extend platforms in Airedale – and Wharfedale – will result in yet more problems next year.

"I have not seen selective door opening on trains anywhere in Europe and in the UK it's only used in restricted instances where trains are virtually empty."

Keighley MP John Grogan said he had raised the issue, together with a number of other matters, during a meeting this week with Transport Secretary Chris Grayling.

"The Northern rail network is currently in crisis following the imposition of a new timetable and many cancellations," said Mr Grogan.

"I have had a significant number of complaints from Keighley commuters, particularly about a new timetable on the Airedale line into Bradford which gives them far fewer options to get to work during the peak hours.

"Mr Grayling's officials promised to consider these issues.

"I also advised the minister that the news hard-pressed commuters want above all else is a settlement to the long-running strike action. I drew his attention to the deal which had been reached in Scotland where the driver opens the doors but the guard closes them and retains a safety role."

http://www.thetelegraphandargus.co.uk/news/16274195.The_train_now_arriving_is___too_long_/

And yes, it is local wibble! :D

As I often allude to, some people will complain about just anything. New / refurbished seats? Wrong colour! New trains? No yellow front! Longer trains? Too long! Give all a passengers a big bag of money? Wrong colour bag! ;)
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

Halish Railway

Established Member
Joined
26 Apr 2017
Messages
1,709
Location
West Yorkshire / Birmingham
This looks like a follow up to an article in the Bradford Telegraph & Argus:



http://www.thetelegraphandargus.co.uk/news/16274195.The_train_now_arriving_is___too_long_/

And yes, it is local wibble! :D

As I often allude to, some people will complain about just anything. New / refurbished seats? Wrong colour! New trains? No yellow front! Longer trains? Too long! Give all a passengers a big bag of money? Wrong colour bag! ;)
Still, with just the Airedale line Leeds services being 331s, there would still not be enough 333s to cover the rest of the West Yorkshire electric services.
 

Bantamzen

Established Member
Joined
4 Dec 2013
Messages
9,726
Location
Baildon, West Yorkshire
Still, with just the Airedale line Leeds services being 331s, there would still not be enough 333s to cover the rest of the West Yorkshire electric services.

I don't think the 331s will be exclusive to the Aire, from what I gathered it is only some peak Aire services that will be doubled up & that single 331s & 333s will work other diagrams on the Aire, Wharfe & Doncaster lines.
 

pemma

Veteran Member
Joined
23 Jan 2009
Messages
31,474
Location
Knutsford
I don't think the 331s will be exclusive to the Aire, from what I gathered it is only some peak Aire services that will be doubled up & that single 331s & 333s will work other diagrams on the Aire, Wharfe & Doncaster lines.

The underlying idea was the West Yorks 331s will replace the 321s and 322s and provide extra capacity, mainly by 6 car 331s replacing 333s which releases 333s to replace 321s and 322s. However, I don't think that means the West Yorks 331s will be exclusively doubled up or exclusively used on one route
 

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
97,784
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
I don't recall seeing SDO on anything in mainland Europe either. But that'll be because stations have tended to keep their long, low platforms on local stations whereas we churned them up.
 

driver_m

Established Member
Joined
8 Nov 2011
Messages
2,248
Be interesting to see which side looks after its 331s better seeing as they would have to be dragged to meet up for the time being. (unless they want to go round the very scenic way to get to a single depot for big maintenance)
 

northernchris

Established Member
Joined
24 Jul 2011
Messages
1,509
I don't think the 331s will be exclusive to the Aire, from what I gathered it is only some peak Aire services that will be doubled up & that single 331s & 333s will work other diagrams on the Aire, Wharfe & Doncaster lines.

Some off peak Leeds-Skipton and Leeds-Ilkley services do get well loaded so I hope there aren't too many single 3 cars on those. However there would be ideal for Bradford services bar the occasional peak journey
 

Bantamzen

Established Member
Joined
4 Dec 2013
Messages
9,726
Location
Baildon, West Yorkshire
Some off peak Leeds-Skipton and Leeds-Ilkley services do get well loaded so I hope there aren't too many single 3 cars on those. However there would be ideal for Bradford services bar the occasional peak journey

It will probably need the Skipton & Ilkley diagrams separating out so that any 6 car formations stay on the Aire line, but it will also need some careful planning to make sure that the 333s are used when they are needed on Wharfe services. However even the Aire services are a little difficult to predict, whilst the old faithfuls like the 17:26 Leeds-Skipton can be planned for 6 car, some services outside of the peaks can also prove to be busy sometimes. A good example is the 15:56 Leeds-Skipton, one I use quite a lot. Yesterday it could easily have run with a single 331 unit, as it was well under half-loaded. However a few of weeks ago during half term it was rammed, and so a single 331 would have struggled as did the 333 on service.

This is my slight worry about the 331 order & 333 refurbs, the Aire & Wharfe are getting busier. Not just anecdotally, but the numbers are showing it too. And with many new housing developments either under way or planned along both routes, this is only going to drive demand further. I wouldn't be surprised in the next few years to rock up to a 6 car 331 on the 17:26 only to find it as rammed as the 333s are now. I can't help wondering if a further order might be needed for at least extra 331 carriages to boost some units to 4 car, and quite possibly some platforms needing eventually to be extended despite SDO being available on the 331s, as formations might need to be lengthened beyond 6 car as both lines are terribly difficult to shoehorn in extra services other than the few in the peak flows.
 

Allwinter_Kit

Member
Joined
12 Jul 2017
Messages
147
I do wonder if across the north, be it the 331s or TPE's Mark 5s, all that the extra capacity is going to do is release a lot of the currently suppressed demand, rather than actually allowing for future forecast growth. So they'll be full within a year and we're back to the current situation, albeit just with more people!
 

Bletchleyite

Veteran Member
Joined
20 Oct 2014
Messages
97,784
Location
"Marston Vale mafia"
I do wonder if across the north, be it the 331s or TPE's Mark 5s, all that the extra capacity is going to do is release a lot of the currently suppressed demand, rather than actually allowing for future forecast growth. So they'll be full within a year and we're back to the current situation, albeit just with more people!

I agree, I genuinely think the move needs to be, as per the South East, towards at least 160m trains, in some cases 240m.
 

Bantamzen

Established Member
Joined
4 Dec 2013
Messages
9,726
Location
Baildon, West Yorkshire
I do wonder if across the north, be it the 331s or TPE's Mark 5s, all that the extra capacity is going to do is release a lot of the currently suppressed demand, rather than actually allowing for future forecast growth. So they'll be full within a year and we're back to the current situation, albeit just with more people!

I agree, I genuinely think the move needs to be, as per the South East, towards at least 160m trains, in some cases 240m.

Given the state on the regular congestion on both the M62 & roads in the Aire / Wharfe valleys (especially towards Leeds) its almost a certainty. Apperley Bridge, and now increasingly Kirkstall Forge are attracting new passengers without any real increase in capacity, so the extra that will come along with the 331s is bound to have an effect, even before any of the tens of thousands of additional homes proposed start to go up.
 
Joined
30 Apr 2018
Messages
122
Location
The Moor That Is Low
I agree, I think we'll see a repeat of the "Talking Trains Effect"* (the Bradford version of the Sparks Effect) we saw c.2000 whereby the new trains emphasise and publicise the frequency and reliability of the Aire/Wharfedale lines, generating demand.
Hopefully Arriva Rail North do as their predecessors did and add cars within a couple of years. Not holding out hope given their questionable decisions elsewhere though.


*Hey, we went from 50's era slam-door 308s to the shiny new 333s with modern looks, aircon, decent toilets and automated announcements. The impact was so great that apparently even the chair of the local rail user group doesn't remember the 308s were electric :rolleyes:
 

Chester1

Established Member
Joined
25 Aug 2014
Messages
3,997
I do wonder if across the north, be it the 331s or TPE's Mark 5s, all that the extra capacity is going to do is release a lot of the currently suppressed demand, rather than actually allowing for future forecast growth. So they'll be full within a year and we're back to the current situation, albeit just with more people!

It will take more than a year for a 5 carriage Mark V set to become as full as a single 185. I think that new stock will be needed before the end of the current franchise in 2023 though. TPE has order options for extra 397s but Manchester - Leeds electrification would need to be done before that made sense. If TPE takes over Liverpool-Nottingham in December 2021 it would be the obvious time to change things. TPE could also keep the 22 x 185s planned to go off lease for longer. Northern is very much up in the air currently, its possible that the timetable debacle has damaged long term prospects for growth.
 

Tam

Member
Joined
13 Aug 2017
Messages
138
Location
Czech Republic
And some photos, taken just before the temperature dropped about 10 degrees, the heavens opened and some serious wind kicked in...
P1500505.JPG P1500490.JPG P1500484.JPG P1500480.JPG
 

Spartacus

Established Member
Joined
25 Aug 2009
Messages
2,922
Jeepers, I wouldn’t want to live next to a route those were going to operate over! That’s some noise for an EMU to make.
 

Tam

Member
Joined
13 Aug 2017
Messages
138
Location
Czech Republic
I can't comment about the Electrostar noise (never having heard one), but this did strike me as being a noisy unit (from about 20-25 feet away).

Just before the heavens opened...
P1500542.JPG
 

LOL The Irony

On Moderation
Joined
29 Jul 2017
Messages
5,335
Location
Chinatown, New York
And some photos, taken just before the temperature dropped about 10 degrees, the heavens opened and some serious wind kicked in...
View attachment 49349 View attachment 49348 View attachment 49347 View attachment 49346
I like centre non driving cars that look Rocketship-esque (part of the reason I like 323's) and the 331's pull that off perfectly. Now all they need to do is sound like a 323...

Getting back on topic, nice photos you got there. Keep them for future photo of the month's.
 

samuelmorris

Established Member
Joined
18 Jul 2013
Messages
5,121
Location
Brentwood, Essex
What's interesting is it sounds considerably different to the other Civity units already on the market. I wonder if some drive frequency changes had to be made to be compliant with UK signalling systems.
 

Bayum

Established Member
Joined
21 Mar 2008
Messages
2,904
Location
Leeds
Did anyone else immediately think of the sound made yb an aeroplane as the engines are ramped up?
 

swt_passenger

Veteran Member
Joined
7 Apr 2010
Messages
31,386
350s have one coach with almost nothing under it too, you just need a brake reservoir and not a lot else. The aircon, unlike older stock, is roof mounted.
As I think we discussed a while ago, there are two vehicles on a 444 that are almost empty of underfloor equipment. They are pretty much exactly how you’d expect an ordinary 23m loco hauled coach to look...
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top