Northern Service Reductions from 4th Jan 2022

[Max]

Yes I was amazed how busy one was leaving Leeds towards Hull on a Wednesday lunchtime recently, and the TPE services either side were also running. The 4 car 158 had very few seats left.

Can vouch for this too. I've been on the Northern service between Leeds and Hull three times in the past 24 hours for work and they've all been very well used - even on those where the corresponding TPE service hasn't been cancelled (which in all fairness hasn't been all that much - TPE providing a shambolic service this week).

 

[swissrailpassion]

Same when the service ran to Selby, very busy and emptying out after Garforth.

 

[Allwinter_Kit]

Just on an hourly Skipton - Leeds (as it's a Sunday) and some people are choosing to stand rather than fill in the middle seats on the 6 seater bays. It's ridiculous that this isn't a half hourly service as a standard.

Still. On the weekday, losing 1/4 of the trains to Skipton, 1/2 the services to Bradford and the new staff desperately keen to enforce the penalty fare zone nonsense (rather than just selling tickets as they did until recently) does mean that they actively seem to be trying to push people away from one of their most successful rail services.

What's the saving? Not like the stock is going to be going and doing anything else - rather than that route in the diagram presumably the train and staff just sit in a break room somewhere? At which point we're down to the lecky bill being the only saving!

 

[northwichcat]

Haha - typical media - it's fine for stations in South Yorkshire to go down from a half hourly train to every ninety minutes (assuming that Northern do manage to run their "reduced" service, of course), but when there are services reduced in West Yorkshire, it suddenly hits the headlines... some things never change, eh?

It's the same this side of the Pennines. The withdrawal of train services used by pupils travelling to schools in Knutsford and Northwich didn't make the regional news programmes. But when the same thing was proposed for Marple it was the top headline and led to Northern reallocating resources.

 

[AMD]

On the weekday, losing 1/4 of the trains to Skipton, 1/2 the services to Bradford and the new staff desperately keen to enforce the penalty fare zone nonsense (rather than just selling tickets as they did until recently) does mean that they actively seem to be trying to push people away from one of their most successful rail services.

For info, post Covid Airedale services are the route that has seen the slowest recovery (Mon to Fri) of all routes in the East region of Northern, hence the notable reduction in services.
Regarding penalty fares, they're needed due to the historical high level of non payment of fares, particularly around the triangle, in some places ticketless travel is 20%+, so the company can't just sit back and hope that everyone will be honest, as obviously a large proportion are not!

 

[43074]

That's poor - it was a lovely day yesterday, lots of crows at both Sheffield and Leeds - trains buoyant with the stag/hen nights, the racing crowds, the groups that you get when there's no "big" football games on - yet nothing from South Yorkshire to Cleethorpes - on a day when the railway could have made a killing from people heading to the seaside

As you keep explaining on here the resources from the 3 trains each way to Cleethorpes would have been being used to get those crowds to/from Leeds and Sheffield. That's the sort of railway you keep advocating whenever local services are discussed on here, isn't it? Or does that not apply when you personally think it is worth serving a particular flow?

 

[Iskra]

Is there any news on when the return of the Northern Sheffield-York services will resume (if ever)? I find these quite useful

 

[Bantamzen]

Just on an hourly Skipton - Leeds (as it's a Sunday) and some people are choosing to stand rather than fill in the middle seats on the 6 seater bays. It's ridiculous that this isn't a half hourly service as a standard.

Still. On the weekday, losing 1/4 of the trains to Skipton, 1/2 the services to Bradford and the new staff desperately keen to enforce the penalty fare zone nonsense (rather than just selling tickets as they did until recently) does mean that they actively seem to be trying to push people away from one of their most successful rail services.

What's the saving? Not like the stock is going to be going and doing anything else - rather than that route in the diagram presumably the train and staff just sit in a break room somewhere? At which point we're down to the lecky bill being the only saving!

I've been wondering this myself. Northern's original explanation for the further reductions next month was to "prioritise" busier services, but there are no extra ones being scheduled elsewhere. The result of Bradford-Skipton/Ilkley going to hourly only save a couple of half-hourly peaks will be that at the busiest time of the year for the line, Bradford-Ilkley loses half of it's capacity (based on low ridership during the winter & covid restrictions), the commuters who would travel down the Airedale line on the Bradford services, changing at Shipley for a Leeds service a few minutes later will now just shoehorn onto the the direct services, and at Shipley now for much of the day there is a half-hour gap for services into Bradford. Plus we all know what will happen if there are delays or disruption, the Bradford FS services will be the first to be cancelled, meaning that for some passengers travelling to and from the city delays could quickly run into hours.

Its just going to further drive people back onto the roads, which is exactly what the roads along the Aire & Wharfe don't need. The local politicians who have been onto Northern have been told that the changes are "temporary", however based on Northern's current planning mechanisms they will doubtless justify further reductions in services by citing lower ridership following previous cutbacks...

Edit: And with almost comical timing, I've just seen an advert Northern have posted on social media about trains being able to take up to 500 cars off the road at a time!

 

[yorksrob]

Reducing Airedale/Wharfedale to hourly seems like one of the most half-baked, pointless ideas known to man.

Doubtless prompted by some clueless wonder bueauracrat down in London.

 

[mm333]

I see that the Doncaster-Scunthorpe stopper is still a two-hourly bus in the new timetables, rather than the hourly train it used to be. Are Northern going for closure by stealth?!

 

[Moonshot]

Reducing Airedale/Wharfedale to hourly seems like one of the most half-baked, pointless ideas known to man.

Doubtless prompted by some clueless wonder bueauracrat down in London.

No. Northern submit business plan. We have been briefed on this

 

[Galaxy]

I see that the Doncaster-Scunthorpe stopper is still a two-hourly bus in the new timetables, rather than the hourly train it used to be. Are Northern going for closure by stealth?!

Certainly looks that way! From what I understand it will return two-hourly with a three hour gap in the daytime, when it eventually ends up being a train service.

Shambolic.

 

[Moonshot]

Certainly looks that way! From what I understand it will return two-hourly with a three hour gap in the daytime, when it eventually ends up being a train service.

Shambolic.

Absolutely the right thing to do. Nothing shambolic about it. Can't run a service without the staff resources in place.

 

[yorksrob]

Absolutely the right thing to do. Nothing shambolic about it. Can't run a service without the staff resources in place.

So basically nothing to do with passenger needs, but the same old excuse that's been wheeled out since summer 2020.

 

[Iskra]

Where are all the Northern staff disappearing to?

 

[Kite159]

Absolutely the right thing to do. Nothing shambolic about it. Can't run a service without the staff resources in place.

So why not run the bus at least hourly like the train service is meant to be?

Otherwise by the time the trains come back, the passengers at Crowle/Althorpe would have vanished. First Group must be loving the extra custom from former rail passengers

 

[30907]

So basically nothing to do with passenger needs, but the same old excuse that's been wheeled out since summer 2020.

Define, please? With the exception of one particular school flow (which Northern should have responded to), neither route from Bradford loads well (compared with the Leeds services).
And Covid hasn't disappeared round here either.

 

[yorksrob]

Define, please? With the exception of one particular school flow (which Northern should have responded to), neither route from Bradford loads well (compared with the Leeds services).
And Covid hasn't disappeared round here either.

Apologies, I didn't realise it was just the Bradfords. I've no idea how well they load.

That said, in terms of staff, the training issue must surely have been solved since the height of the pandemic. It surely can't be right that services like Doncaster - Scunthorpe, Wakefield -Huddersfield and Sheffield -York continue to be ruined.

 

[Moonshot]

Where are all the Northern staff disappearing to?

17% of operations staff are not available for duty..... mainly down to sickness

It was revealed today internally that Easter passenger numbers were at 101% of pre Covid level. This is despite reduced resources. Clearly putting the available resources where they are in demand the most is actually working.

 

[northernchris]

I've been wondering this myself. Northern's original explanation for the further reductions next month was to "prioritise" busier services, but there are no extra ones being scheduled elsewhere. The result of Bradford-Skipton/Ilkley going to hourly only save a couple of half-hourly peaks will be that at the busiest time of the year for the line, Bradford-Ilkley loses half of it's capacity (based on low ridership during the winter & covid restrictions), the commuters who would travel down the Airedale line on the Bradford services, changing at Shipley for a Leeds service a few minutes later will now just shoehorn onto the the direct services, and at Shipley now for much of the day there is a half-hour gap for services into Bradford. Plus we all know what will happen if there are delays or disruption, the Bradford FS services will be the first to be cancelled, meaning that for some passengers travelling to and from the city delays could quickly run into hours.

Its just going to further drive people back onto the roads, which is exactly what the roads along the Aire & Wharfe don't need. The local politicians who have been onto Northern have been told that the changes are "temporary", however based on Northern's current planning mechanisms they will doubtless justify further reductions in services by citing lower ridership following previous cutbacks...

Edit: And with almost comical timing, I've just seen an advert Northern have posted on social media about trains being able to take up to 500 cars off the road at a time!

I think Northern's latest reason is there's a backlog of training for drivers. Removing off peak service is logical, and at least it's a route which can't be shortformed! It's disappointing though they haven't been able to run any additional peak services between Bradford and Ilkley, although the 1742 Leeds - Skipton makes a welcome return

Where are all the Northern staff disappearing to?

Indeed, Northern don't seem to be in a much better position than this time last year, which raises questions as to what their staffing levels will be like in 12 months time

 

[Killingworth]

17% of operations staff are not available for duty..... mainly down to sickness

It was revealed today internally that Easter passenger numbers were at 101% of pre Covid level. This is despite reduced resources. Clearly putting the available resources where they are in demand the most is actually working.

Full and standing on many Hope Valley trains on sunny days. Early and late trains won't be as good but I'd think 100% of pre-Covid overall. We badly need the 14.14 Sheffield departure back. The 13.14 doesn't stop at all stations so a big gap from the 12.14 until the 15.46 and 16.14. Yes, a gap of 3.5 or 4 hours in a supposedly hourly service until 16th May when it reduces to 2.5 and 3 hours when the 14.14 returns.

 

[Bantamzen]

Reducing Airedale/Wharfedale to hourly seems like one of the most half-baked, pointless ideas known to man.

Doubtless prompted by some clueless wonder bueauracrat down in London.

As mentioned above, it is only the Bradford services for the chop. However your point still stands. Anyone that knows the area will tell you that the traffic situation, especially around Shipley is a nightmare. This makes the trains invaluable for those people that need to commute through the area. Knocking them back is just going to make the whole situation a lot worse, and no doubt Northern will then use it as an excuse to worsen services in the future. I can almost hear it now:

"When we cut back services, fewer people used them so we will cut them back more"...

I think Northern's latest reason is there's a backlog of training for drivers. Removing off peak service is logical, and at least it's a route which can't be shortformed! It's disappointing though they haven't been able to run any additional peak services between Bradford and Ilkley, although the 1742 Leeds - Skipton makes a welcome return

Northern, and indeed any other company still using "because covid" as an excuse have had over two years to figure problems like this out. And it doesn't help those of use that rely on these services to try and avoid the clutser-you-know-what that is the situation on the roads in this area. As a government owned company, a government that is not only saying its committed to promoting greener forms of transport but also supposedly "levelling up" the north Northern should be going hell for leather to getting punters on trains, not slashing services when demand is going to be at it's greatest.

As I said upthread, this is going to lead to more problems than it can possibly solve.

 

[175001]

Full and standing on many Hope Valley trains on sunny days. Early and late trains won't be as good but I'd think 100% of pre-Covid overall. We badly need the 14.14 Sheffield departure back. The 13.14 doesn't stop at all stations so a big gap from the 12.14 until the 15.46 and 16.14. Yes, a gap of 3.5 or 4 hours in a supposedly hourly service until 16th May when it reduces to 2.5 and 3 hours when the 14.14 returns.

The afternoon gap will be filled, by reducing the New Mills terminator to every 2 hours in the afternoon. That'll just add strain on the Hope Valley stopper. At least the 1719 is back. The 1749 has suffered because of it.
There is no longer a peak afternoon Chinley terminator. But the morning one remains

 

[Galaxy]

Absolutely the right thing to do. Nothing shambolic about it. Can't run a service without the staff resources in place.

Should have just left it at can't run a service...

 

[Moonshot]

Should have just left it at can't run a service...

Won't be running any services when the strike action kicks in. Worst case scenario is that there will be zero trains running every weekend for the whole of summer. That will really kill off the recovery

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Won't be running any services when the strike action kicks in. Worst case scenario is that there will be zero trains running every weekend for the whole of summer. That will really kill off the recovery

It has been mentioned to me in general discussions that on other website forums that the present Government would not be too unhappy for the said weekend proposed railways strike action to go on for quite a long time, as it would be a distraction from other matters. Has anyone on here been aware of this?

 

[Killingworth]

This dull and chilly morning the Hope Valley route is trialling 6 car 195s for 2 of the diagrams. Should be bags of space today.

 

[175001]

Not a trial, that was conducted the other week. Its booked traction for the foreseeable on a weekend

 

[voyagerdude220]

This dull and chilly morning the Hope Valley route is trialling 6 car 195s for 2 of the diagrams. Should be bags of space today.

I imagine the Blackpool to York services would benefit from a capacity increase as well. Even when they're 3car 195s they're often close to capacity, if not with a small number standing.

I'm not saying this is the only route which could do with more capacity though.

 

[Starmill]

It has been mentioned to me in general discussions that on other website forums that the present Government would not be too unhappy for the said weekend proposed railways strike action to go on for quite a long time, as it would be a distraction from other matters. Has anyone on here been aware of this?

The government machine will speak out against strike action, but internally they will be quite satisfied with the idea of no trains at all running on Northern routes because the cost savings are greater than the lost revenues.