Northern's £80 settlements and lack of incentive for Northern to provide facilities

[Mojo]

Why is this scheme deemed more appropriate than a real Penalty fare scheme?

 

[Starmill]

Indeed. I don't disagree with the stated aims kwvr45 puts forward, I think reducing fare evasion would do great thing. But I don't understand why, if there's a desire to do that, investment can't be made in a real Penalty Fares scheme and all of the safeguards that mandates. Why are we making excuses for the penny-pinching?

 

[Solent&Wessex]

Indeed. I don't disagree with the stated aims kwvr45 puts forward, I think reducing fare evasion would do great thing. But I don't understand why, if there's a desire to do that, investment can't be made in a real Penalty Fares scheme and all of the safeguards that mandates. Why are we making excuses for the penny-pinching?

I suspect, like most things, it is the short termism of the industry. Northern only have the management contract until next March. During this time they have been instructed by the DfT to spend less but increase revenue. Any expenditure on a large scale would need to be sanctioned by the DfT who almost certainly won't do that at this stage in the game. They'll just say it's in the ITT for the next franchise to improve ticket buying facilities. Until then nothing will happen.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Is this a cultural thing around Manchester?

Or is it just the make-up of the Forum that means that we seem to hear a disproportionate amount of examples of people being caught without a ticket (or short faring etc) around Manchester?

That is an interesting question. I'm sure there are plenty of examples of people not bothering to pay and just walking out on (say) LM, but their RPIs, on the rare occasion you actually see them, seem to be rather less devious - an obvious block takes place, not people hiding just outside to catch people who didn't pay at the ticket office on arrival.

And then do we accept that some days the machine will be Out Of Order... what then? Passengers can buy reduced price tickets on board? But how will the Guard know whether the machine is broken or not? How lenient should they be?

The rule on Metrolink is that if you are unable to buy a ticket at the station for whatever reason, you must telephone their customer services (or use the help point) and obtain a reference number reporting the faulty machine. That reference number entitles travel. It also has the useful effect that faulty machines will be reported very quickly.

Sounds good, but the nature of Northern's services means that many aren't simply confined to the boundaries of one PTE. In the case of Manchester, there's stations out in Derbyshire/ Cheshire/ Lancashire etc to consider too.

True, but I see no particular reason certain lines that *are* self contained shouldn't be traditional Penalty Fares routes.

That's the problem - a "nice" Guard who'll sell CDRs on board will get goodwill from passengers (and some commission on tickets!), but isn't helping with the TOC's message of "Thou Shalt Purchase At Your First Station Or Face Expensive Consequences".

That inconsistency is to me a *massive* problem (and it occurs elsewhere as well, e.g. LM's somewhat theoretical PF scheme).

To me, if one is strictly required to purchase a ticket before travel, tickets should not be sold on board at all, whether discounted or otherwise. If it is permitted from certain stations not justifying a TVM, a PERTIS machine should be installed at those stations such that one can conclusively prove that one boarded there. The South East manages this just fine - for example Beaulieu Road, a station with only a few services per day, has a PERTIS.

I recognise that having Guards issue penalty fares would be fraught with problems (though the Swiss do work that way, it has to be said) however it needs to be very clear what is and isn't allowed. At the very least, if guards are going to use their discretion, they could be issued with a pile of leaflets explaining clearly the situation and why they may not be as lucky next time.

As I always buy a ticket when I travel, I have no particular issue with a strict approach to ticket enforcement. But I *do* have a problem with a lack of clarity in the situation. If zero tolerance is to be applied, for which there is a good argument, it should be zero tolerance every time, not some of the time. Then one cannot be in any doubt.

 

[34D]

Surely there is an alternative to cultural change: return to the paytrain principles from the 70s and 80s?

Stop installing the odd machine here and there, make the train DOO (sorry - I know we have a separate thread to discuss that - it seems a foregone conclusion it will happen soon) then have one or two ticket sellers on each train to actively sell tickets 100% of the time?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Why is this scheme deemed more appropriate than a real Penalty fare scheme?

In my view because (a) it absolves Northern of the requirement to follow the restrictions of a proper PF scheme, and (b) because £80 is more than £20.

(Though personally I think it is time for an increase to the "proper" Penalty Fare - £80, discounted to £40 for prompt payment, increased to £120 for delayed payment, would seem about right to me)

Edit: I would also remove the double Anytime fare, but instead charge the appropriate walk-up fare *in addition to* the £40/80/120.

 

[Solent&Wessex]

Surely there is an alternative to cultural change: return to the paytrain principles from the 70s and 80s?

Stop installing the odd machine here and there, make the train DOO (sorry - I know we have a separate thread to discuss that - it seems a foregone conclusion it will happen soon) then have one or two ticket sellers on each train to actively sell tickets 100% of the time?

The trains are far busier than they were in the 70s and 80s. Even with 2 ticket sellers who weren't troubled with doors, you would be hard pressed to do everybody requiring tickets in the time available on many routes, and that is assuming it isn't so busy you can actually move around the train. And arguably, in the long run, even assuming that the new non-safety critical on board staff are paid a lower wage than Guards currently are, it would cost a lot more in the long run.

 

[Blindtraveler]

But would it though if contracters were used? Id hav thought issuing these same bullys that currently pounce on inosent pax at ManPic with a ticket machine and a tablet to check rules, routes, regs and validity would require less training for these idiots than now?

 

[47802]

It would seem to me that its probably acceptable not to have a ticket machine at such as Bentham or Garsdale, but on busy commuter routes with short station stops such as Morley for instance all these types of stations should have at least a ticket machine, there does some to me to be some element of potentially innocent passengers to be penalised at the moment and to me that's not how you should be running a railway, you need to be giving people every opportunity to buy a ticket, and hiding around the corner of an exit seems somewhat dubious to say the least.

Last time I was in Berlin there were no barriers and no ticket checks on their metro system, are we more dishonest than the Germans or do they just accept more ticketless travel?

 

[yorkie]

Indeed. People are keen to defend Northern's inability to install ticket machines at well patronised stations by quoting examples of how many remote stations they have.

The only caveat to that is I would say they need to be providing at least 2 or more machines at stations if they want to insist people use them. The idea that you have to walk up and down the length of a station searching for a ticket machine that may or may not exist and may or may not accept your chosen payment method and may or may not have a long queue isn't one that I think should be entertained.

At stations where Northern have made it very easy to purchase tickets, then fine pursue people if they want, but they are pursuing people who are blind, people who have used stations without facilities, people whose card has been unexpectedly declined, and... well I could go on but I'm getting angry thinking about it!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

..We very rarely disagree Dave but...

I'm not going to post a reply to the post that made you angry, other than to reassure you that you're not alone and many others feel a similar way to you.

 

[pemma]

For instance, I was travelling to Wigan on Saturday morning. At Salford Crescent, a station with a manned booking office which was open at the time, a guy in his early 20s boarded the train and when approached by the Conductor asked for a return to Atherton. He was sold the £4.20 CDR. No remark was made by either party, who both acted as if that was a completely normal transaction.

While people do walk past open ticket offices for no reason I'm not sure there's enough information in your post to confirm that was the case.

Do we know that the ticket office was actually staffed at the time? If someone phoned in sick it might have left the ticket office unstaffed at a time it was supposed to be staffed.

Or maybe the ticket office was staffed but due to a technical problem they were unable to sell tickets?

Or maybe the ticket office was very busy and the staff gave authorisation for people queueing for tickets to buy on board?

All 3 of the above have happened to me at one time or another.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The trains are far busier than they were in the 70s and 80s. Even with 2 ticket sellers who weren't troubled with doors, you would be hard pressed to do everybody requiring tickets in the time available on many routes, and that is assuming it isn't so busy you can actually move around the train. And arguably, in the long run, even assuming that the new non-safety critical on board staff are paid a lower wage than Guards currently are, it would cost a lot more in the long run.

This is why I think the only option is to take the ticketing[1] off the train on as much of the Northern network as possible[2] (and if that will mean a loss of staff commission, I guess the unions need to get involved to ensure that that is replaced by a suitable pay increase).

[1] Not the guard, who would remain for safety purposes, the ticketing. Before we enter another debate

[2] The lines left would be those where loadings are typically so low that there is no reason the guard would not be able to ensure that tickets were sold prior to entering the PF zone, would be clearly shown as Paytrain areas, and the guard could additionally carry a book of "PERTIS" to give out in the event of problems with ticket sales. I'm thinking Cumbrian coast, Kirkby-Wigan, Ormskirk-Preston and similar.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I'm not going to post a reply to the post that made you angry, other than to reassure you that you're not alone and many others feel a similar way to you.

If, and I wasn't there so I didn't witness it, the comments Blindtraveler made are true, and I see no reason to dispute them, some Northern staff need a very severe talking to at the very least. The negative staff comments allegedly made regarding his disability are to me utterly unacceptable, and it seems to me totally obvious that a blind person can't use a touchscreen TVM.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Indeed. I don't disagree with the stated aims kwvr45 puts forward, I think reducing fare evasion would do great thing. But I don't understand why, if there's a desire to do that, investment can't be made in a real Penalty Fares scheme and all of the safeguards that mandates. Why are we making excuses for the penny-pinching?

Northern Spirit put in a Penalty Fares scheme around Leeds, including a big investment in ticket machines, and the first thing Northern did when they took over from Arriva was abolish it. Why? I'm guessing because it cost money to have all those ticket machines or PERTIS machines (which were all ripped out by Northern), and Serco and Abellio don't like spending money on, well, anything really.

The big problem seems to be the Arena exit at Manchester Victoria, where RPIs will lurk up by the McDonald's and try and catch people who leave by that exit. Nowhere does that exit say it is for ticket holders only, or that there isn't ticketing facilities there (although if you take one of the exits from the Arena concourse it brings you out by the ticket office in the station anyway...). That issue basically seems to be RPIs working on commission being devious to try and catch people, and it is disgraceful. If Northern don't want people without tickets using the exit they should either lock it, like they used to when the station first opened, or they should put the RPI blockade right by the door.

The way Northern behave makes me think that they're not interested in preventing ticketing issues, they're interested in charging £80 to as many people as possible.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The big problem seems to be the Arena exit at Manchester Victoria, where RPIs will lurk up by the McDonald's and try and catch people who leave by that exit. Nowhere does that exit say it is for ticket holders only, or that there isn't ticketing facilities there (although if you take one of the exits from the Arena concourse it brings you out by the ticket office in the station anyway...). That issue basically seems to be RPIs working on commission being devious to try and catch people, and it is disgraceful. If Northern don't want people without tickets using the exit they should either lock it, like they used to when the station first opened, or they should put the RPI blockade right by the door.

Yes, I think that's very questionable. However I think I read upthread that the exit is to be closed? If not, are automatic barriers to be fitted at Vic? A set there would be an obvious solution - no ticket mate? You're not coming through until you have.

 

[Blindtraveler]

Thanks to both Yorkie and Neil for your support. 1 of the simplist ways of solving part of this whole issue for me personally would be for NRE or the TOC to state online if shacks with TVMs were card only or took cash. Whilst Id gladly stop a member of the public and ask for help to by a single from a Cash TVM, a huge wrisk comes in if asking that same member of the public to tap in a card number or similar. In the case of cash TVMs on a system like Tramlink, Supertram etc I do this often.

 

[pemma]

Yes, I think that's very questionable. However I think I read upthread that the exit is to be closed? If not, are automatic barriers to be fitted at Vic? A set there would be an obvious solution - no ticket mate? You're not coming through until you have.

Automatic barriers have been fitted at Victoria and have become operational in the past few weeks so I'm not sure how that has affected things.

I'm also not sure what the current situation is at Huddersfield. Before ticket barriers were installed you could enter the Head of Steam via platform 1 or via St George's Square. I don't know if that's still the case and if it is whether any ticket inspector hangs around the entrance from platform 1.

 

[Tetchytyke]

The exit from the Head of Steam on to the platform has been locked for years.

 

[Solent&Wessex]

Northern Spirit put in a Penalty Fares scheme around Leeds, including a big investment in ticket machines, and the first thing Northern did when they took over from Arriva was abolish it. Why? I'm guessing because it cost money to have all those ticket machines or PERTIS machines (which were all ripped out by Northern), and Serco and Abellio don't like spending money on, well, anything really.

.

If I recall correctly the Penalty Fares scheme was actually abandoned by Arriva before Northern got involved. Primarily due to the Pertis machines at most stations constantly being out of use due to vandalism or theft (I know the ones at Keighley never ever seemed to work when I regularly travelled through). There was also the issue of when they were working people were just putting in 5p, and with all the voucher exchanges it was delaying the Guard on the train when he was selling tickets. Finally they didn't actually employ enough RPIs to enforce the scheme fully and issue any PFs and people got to know they could just buy a ticket on board anyway.

The exit from the Head of Steam on to the platform has been locked for years.

The exit between the Head of Steam and the platform is still in use. The door is closed, and there are signs saying not to use it, but it is still unlocked. The exit between the Kings Arms (or whatever it is currently called) and the platform is closed off.

 

[Bletchleyite]

If I recall correctly the Penalty Fares scheme was actually abandoned by Arriva before Northern got involved. Primarily due to the Pertis machines at most stations constantly being out of use due to vandalism or theft (I know the ones at Keighley never ever seemed to work when I regularly travelled through). There was also the issue of when they were working people were just putting in 5p, and with all the voucher exchanges it was delaying the Guard on the train when he was selling tickets.

Putting 5p in it is still useful, as it proves the origin was indeed the unstaffed station. Indeed, would the machines be at less risk if all they did was took very small sums in exchange for proof of having originated at that station? They could be free if the local vandals wouldn't just release them all onto the floor, so the charge could just be a token amount to prevent that.

 

[lejog]

The exit between the Head of Steam and the platform is still in use. The door is closed, and there are signs saying not to use it, but it is still unlocked. The exit between the Kings Arms (or whatever it is currently called) and the platform is closed off.

I've certainly used the exit from the King's Head recently at lunchtime and it was wide open, but then again so were the ticket barriers. At other times it may be locked - certainly on Saturdays with all the Rail Ale ****heads. The other pub has been called the King's Head (rather than the Station Tavern) for a decade or two now and has recently had a decent refurbishment/restoration and of course has rather better beer than the Head of Steam.

 

[pemma]

The exit between the Head of Steam and the platform is still in use. The door is closed, and there are signs saying not to use it, but it is still unlocked. The exit between the Kings Arms (or whatever it is currently called) and the platform is closed off.

Maybe Head of Steam have to keep it unlocked to comply with H&S requirements?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Maybe Head of Steam have to keep it unlocked to comply with H&S requirements?

Perhaps, but if so a sign stating "This door is alarmed and is not for public use except in case of emergency" would deter most people, and as it makes this clear enough if they did then have an RPI behind it handing out 80 quid whatsits that would seem entirely reasonable.

I would similarly have no issue with the RPI sting at Manc Vic if there was a large, clear sign you had to pass stating "This exit is for ticket holders only. If you do not have a ticket you must proceed to the ticket office to purchase one before using this exit. Anyone without a valid ticket will be reported for prosecution". While I don't like the 80 quid lark itself, I equally have no issue with people who are actually deliberately fare dodging having had a more than reasonable chance to pay being strung up for it.

Germany doesn't do ticket barriers, but in compulsory ticket areas the boundary and signage are always very clear and you are left in no doubt of the possibilities for enforcement if you as much as step over the line without one.

 

[pemma]

Perhaps, but if so a sign stating "This door is alarmed and is not for public use except in case of emergency" would deter most people, and as it makes this clear enough if they did then have an RPI behind it handing out 80 quid whatsits that would seem entirely reasonable.

Maybe the question is will First TPE pay for the Head of Steam to have an alarmed fire door fitted? If not then why should the Head of Steam pay for it for prevent ticket-less travel?

I doubt putting a sign there and not alarming it would do anything. Someone will probably walk through it out of habit without reading the sign and then word will get out that it isn't alarmed.

Also why would First TPE (who manage Huddersfield) get their staff involved in Northern's bogus penalty fare farce?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Maybe the question is will First TPE pay for the Head of Steam to have an alarmed fire door fitted? If not then why should the Head of Steam pay for it for prevent ticket-less travel?

I doubt putting a sign there and not alarming it would do anything. Someone will probably walk through it out of habit without reading the sign and then word will get out that it isn't alarmed.

If the sign is there and clearly on the door, I don't see why Northern shouldn't send their RPIs there to get them!

 

[pemma]

If the sign is there and clearly on the door, I don't see why Northern shouldn't send their RPIs there to get them!

I heard there's a revenue checking agreement in place between TPE and Northern and TPE are responsible for all ticket checks at stations like Huddersfield and Warrington Central, while Northern responsible for all ticket checks at stations like Blackpool North and Bolton, so if that is the case it Northern sending RPIs to Huddersfield might result in a fall out and each only checking attempting to check their own passengers.

 

[Tetchytyke]

There was also the issue of when they were working people were just putting in 5p, and with all the voucher exchanges it was delaying the Guard on the train when he was selling tickets. Finally they didn't actually employ enough RPIs to enforce the scheme fully and issue any PFs and people got to know they could just buy a ticket on board anyway.

At least with a PERTIS it was easier to catch short-faring, as even a 5p voucher shows the station the voucher was bought from. The PERTIS machines were not very reliable, agreed, the one at Frizinghall never ever worked (mostly because the posh boys at Bradford Grammar kept putting chewing gum in the slot, but shush). I was one of those people who only ever put 5p in it.

As I've said, though, I think Northern's business model will include a certain number of £80 settlements, and that's why they're so poor (and inconsistent) about ticketing. They don't want people to buy the £1.85 ticket, they want people to carry on thinking they can buy on board and get stung for £80.

The exit between the Head of Steam and the platform is still in use. The door is closed, and there are signs saying not to use it, but it is still unlocked.

Ah, ok. I'm a good boy and walk the long way round

 

[34D]

So at Manchester Vic, is visiting the upstairs McDonald's (and it's lavatorial conveniences) something that one can do while changing trains?

Could a visit there before the ticket office ever be legitimate?

 

[pemma]

Hypothetical scenario at Victoria:

You travel from unstaffed rail station, with an intended final destination either Eithad Campus or Old Trafford Metrolink stops. There's no opportunity to buy ticket on board. On arrival at Victoria you fancy something to eat so go in to McDonalds. You eat your food and make your way down to the Metrolink platforms where you buy a Train & Tram Day ticket.

What rules have been broken? Surely you bought a valid ticket for your rail journey at the first given opportunity (between arriving at Victoria and leaving Victoria.)

 

[Crossover]

The exit from the Head of Steam on to the platform has been locked for years.

As others have said, it is very much open as I used it a few weeks ago. There is a sign on the door saying about having tickets ready for inspection, alas, it wasn't required :P

 

[LateThanNever]

Germany doesn't do ticket barriers, but in compulsory ticket areas the boundary and signage are always very clear and you are left in no doubt of the possibilities for enforcement if you as much as step over the line without one.

So this is much more like a parking fine, which is unenforceable without proper signage.
Which is why there should be basic requirements - in this supposed land of freedom - before any of the cavalier rail companies are allowed to enforce anything at all under strict liability...