Northern's £80 settlements and lack of incentive for Northern to provide facilities

[Mag_seven]

Why doesn't Northern just copy Scotland - When I was up there recently there were ticket issuing staff on every train that I used - all had machines. I can't imagine Scotland now experiences much in the way of fare evasion as it now seems practically impossible to avoid payment.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Because Northern get as much from one caught fare evader than they do from 20 or 30 people paying the fare? These stings must be extremely profitable...

 

[island]

So this is much more like a parking fine, which is unenforceable without proper signage.
Which is why there should be basic requirements - in this supposed land of freedom - before any of the cavalier rail companies are allowed to enforce anything at all under strict liability...

No, it is nothing like a parking fine whatsoever.

 

[sheff1]

Why doesn't Northern just copy Scotland - When I was up there recently there were ticket issuing staff on every train that I used - all had machines. I can't imagine Scotland now experiences much in the way of fare evasion as it now seems practically impossible to avoid payment.

The ticket sellers in Strathclyde can't always get through the train in time to reach those travelling between two unstaffed surburban stations so there is still an element of people not being able to pay. The system, though, is much better than Northern's as the vast majority of people can and do pay and, if by some chance you do arrive at a major station without having an opportunity to pay you are not met by a gang of semi-literate heavies threatening you with an £80 'fine'.

 

[Mojo]

While people do walk past open ticket offices for no reason I'm not sure there's enough information in your post to confirm that was the case.

Do we know that the ticket office was actually staffed at the time? If someone phoned in sick it might have left the ticket office unstaffed at a time it was supposed to be staffed.

Or maybe the ticket office was staffed but due to a technical problem they were unable to sell tickets?

Or maybe the ticket office was very busy and the staff gave authorisation for people queueing for tickets to buy on board?

All 3 of the above have happened to me at one time or another.

You seem to be acting as if what I have described was a rarity. On pretty much every Northern Rail journey I make, customers are sold tickets on board from stations where they could have bought at the station. Yes, I can confirm that the customer should have bought from the booking office and that none of the above apply.
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Why doesn't Northern just copy Scotland - When I was up there recently there were ticket issuing staff on every train that I used - all had machines. I can't imagine Scotland now experiences much in the way of fare evasion as it now seems practically impossible to avoid payment.

Under Scottish law, it is almost impossible to bring about a private prosecution. Therefore pretty much the only choice that the Tocs have is to ensure that as many customers as possible are paying the fare.

 

[clagmonster]

I travelled on a Northern train from a staffed station on Saturday. I had asked the guard if I could pay a discounted fare to him, he agreed and undertook the transaction (I made the journey as a fill in on the basis of a winning 142, I wouldn't have got to the booking office and back). What I did notice is that several other passengers paid their fares to him. He warned every one of them about £80 FPN. I have no idea whether he accepted discounted fares from them, but either way that is a good way to operate. I wonder how many others are doing this.

 

[sheff1]

He warned every one of them about £80 FPN. I have no idea whether he accepted discounted fares from them, but either way that is a good way to operate. I wonder how many others are doing this.

I travel on Northern regularly in the South Yorkshire, West Yorkshire & Greater Manchester areas. I have never heard a guard mention the £80 FPN when selling tickets to people who have boarded at staffed stations.

 

[clagmonster]

He was the first I had seen doing it as well, although I suspect I use Northern less frequently than you. I must just have been lucky.

Of course, in a true PF area, it is a requirement that guard's mention that a TTI would have been able to charge a PF instead.

 

[Starmill]

The 'confusion factor' doesn't appear to be limited to Northern. I know there was an open ticket office this morning at Carstairs, yet the guard just issued someone from Carstairs the Anytime Day Return to Edinburgh when asked for it.They didn't mention if they were required to use the booking office. It didn't have that much of a queue either.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The 'confusion factor' doesn't appear to be linited to Northern. I know there was an open ticket office this morning at Carstairs, yet the guard just issued someone from Carstairs the Anytime Day Return to Edinburgh when asked for it.They didn't mention if they were required to use the booking office. It didn't have that much of a queue either.

That is only really a problem if on arrival at Edinburgh they would be prosecuted (or issued an £80 special) rather than simply sold a ticket if the guard had not done that. That's to me the issue - the inconsistency wasn't a massive problem before the £80 thing came along.

 

[Starmill]

By the way, the update on the exit at Manchester Vic is that new doors have been fitted, which lack handles (!?) But do have magnetic locks. They weren't locked yesterday though, and there's nothing to suggest you aren't to go that way (certainly for going in you just push the door and it will open - I saw some people alight from my train and pull the window frame of the door to open it). Use of this exit does not appear to be prohibited, giant arrows for McDonald'sare still plastered all over it.

 

[island]

Because Northern get as much from one caught fare evader than they do from 20 or 30 people paying the fare? These stings must be extremely profitable...

Well, exactly. Why spend money on ticketing facilities when you can issue £80 Penalty Fakes? :roll:

 

[Clip]

The 'confusion factor' doesn't appear to be limited to Northern. I know there was an open ticket office this morning at Carstairs, yet the guard just issued someone from Carstairs the Anytime Day Return to Edinburgh when asked for it.They didn't mention if they were required to use the booking office. It didn't have that much of a queue either.

That is only really a problem if on arrival at Edinburgh they would be prosecuted (or issued an £80 special) rather than simply sold a ticket if the guard had not done that. That's to me the issue - the inconsistency wasn't a massive problem before the £80 thing came along.

And as Mojo has pointed out above - Scotland acts very differently towards fare evasion so trying to compare the two is a moot point.

TVMs being everywhere is great but once they get vandalised they are out of action for a long time. And then there's the risk of them getting busted again - Im thinking of Denham/Beaconsfield and one or two others a few years back which were out for weeks then as soon as fixed were out again a couple of weeks later - whilst its ideal to have them everywhere Im pretty sure you would be moaning about them being vandalised so you couldn't get a ticket then either so really they cant win can they?

 

[Starmill]

Look this is very simple. It's the train operator's responsibility to provide ticket purchasing facilities. If they can't protect the machines (where's the CCTV?) And get them up to a high availability rate then they aren't doing that. There are solutions available in the form of staffing the station or giving up with that particular location and returning to having tickets issued on-train. A balance can be struck because most people are managing it apart from Northern. No cash for sation improvements? OK, so drop the harsh penalties in dubious situations.

 

[34D]

Look this is very simple. It's the train operator's responsibility to provide ticket purchasing facilities. If they can't protect the machines (where's the CCTV?) And get them up to a high availability rate then they aren't doing that. There are solutions available in the form of staffing the station or giving up with that particular location and returning to having tickets issued on-train. A balance can be struck because most people are managing it apart from Northern. No cash for sation improvements? OK, so drop the harsh penalties in dubious situations.

Well said

 

[northwichcat]

You seem to be acting as if what I have described was a rarity. On pretty much every Northern Rail journey I make, customers are sold tickets on board from stations where they could have bought at the station. Yes, I can confirm that the customer should have bought from the booking office and that none of the above apply.

I did previously say:

While people do walk past open ticket offices for no reason I'm not sure there's enough information in your post to confirm that was the case.

But if you are 100% sure that the ticket office was open, the staff hadn't gone away to deal with something (like assist a disabled person or deal with trouble makers) and saw that person arrive at the station actively avoiding the ticket office then it's a different matter.

 

[Tetchytyke]

TVMs being everywhere is great but once they get vandalised they are out of action for a long time. And then there's the risk of them getting busted again

The problem with inconsistency is where ticketing facilities are available, not where they are not available. There's no inconsistency if there's no TVM or someone's put a brick through it; you buy on the train or at the other end as the RPIs know the TVM is knackered at that station.

The problem with Northern in particular is that they're not providing sufficient TVMs and they're trying to sting people for it. Look at the number of people who are getting Penalty Fakes because they didn't stop at a ticket office at the interchange station, or where the RPI doesn't believe they got on at that station (not that I blame the RPIs, given the number of short-faring stories we see on here).

My experience of Northern (and of London Midland, for that matter) is the same as Mojo's. The guards, presumably for the sake of a quiet life, will sell a person a ticket even where they've walked past a ticket office. I think that's the most sensible course of action.
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But if you are 100% sure that the ticket office was open, the staff hadn't gone away to deal with something (like assist a disabled person or deal with trouble makers) and saw that person arrive at the station actively avoiding the ticket office then it's a different matter.

I see it regularly at Shipley. The ticket office is over on platform 3, which is a very long walk from platform 1 (the main platform for Leeds). Guards will cheerfully sell discounted tickets to anyone getting on at Shipley without a ticket.

I'm sure occasionally the ticket office window is closed due to staff shortages, etc, but on every occasion? I doubt it.

 

[Clip]

Look this is very simple. It's the train operator's responsibility to provide ticket purchasing facilities .

You're right, it is. Along with the passengers responsibility to purchase one using the facilities if they are there yet so many still don't...

If they can't protect the machines (where's the CCTV?) And get them up to a high availability rate then they aren't doing that.

Well there was CCTV when Chiltern and some of FGW stations were being attacked but it didn't stop them from happening - including cameras being put inside looking out - still happened. And your lack of knowledge on this subject is quite large yet you have an opinion.

There are solutions available in the form of staffing the station or giving up with that particular location and returning to having tickets issued on-train. A balance can be struck because most people are managing it apart from Northern. No cash for sation improvements? OK, so drop the harsh penalties in dubious situations

Are you saying they DONT allow people to buy on board form stations that have no facilities? News to me.

Lets be honest - you live in an ideal world with no real day to day knowledge nor understanding the difficulties that we face yet you seem to have all the answers so why not come and join us and get these implemented?

The problem with inconsistency is where ticketing facilities are available, not where they are not available. There's no inconsistency if there's no TVM or someone's put a brick through it; you buy on the train or at the other end as the RPIs know the TVM is knackered at that station.

The problem with Northern in particular is that they're not providing sufficient TVMs and they're trying to sting people for it. Look at the number of people who are getting Penalty Fakes because they didn't stop at a ticket office at the interchange station, or where the RPI doesn't believe they got on at that station (not that I blame the RPIs, given the number of short-faring stories we see on here).

My experience of Northern (and of London Midland, for that matter) is the same as Mojo's. The guards, presumably for the sake of a quiet life, will sell a person a ticket even where they've walked past a ticket office. I think that's the most sensible course of action.
.

I do understand this but it must be very hard for them to strike the right balance - I don't know if any Northern or LM guards get a commission for selling tickets so cant possibly say - someone in both must wonder why more PFs or the fixed penalty notices are not as high from those stations given how many are sold by the guard. Maybe they just don't care - and with Northern being so big that may just be the case.

 

[najaB]

It's the train operator's responsibility to provide ticket purchasing facilities. If they can't protect the machines (where's the CCTV?)

CCTV doesn't prevent crime.

 

[crehld]

You're right, it is. Along with the passengers responsibility to purchase one using the facilities if they are there yet so many still don't...

But this discussion is not about passengers not buying tickets where facilities to exist (and you'll have no argument that such people should have the book thrown at them). Rather it's about Northern dishing out penalties when adequate facilities have not been provided.

Well there was CCTV when Chiltern and some of FGW stations were being attacked but it didn't stop them from happening - including cameras being put inside looking out - still happened. And your lack of knowledge on this subject is quite large yet you have an opinion.

This isn't an insurmountable challenge, but I appreciate it maybe beyond the the resources (or perhaps imagination) some TOCs can muster. In this case why not just stick to selling tickets on board (perhaps investing the resources which would have been spent on ticketing facilities on extra staff to facilitate this) and just admit it's impossible to equitably apply a penalty scheme with a franchise with Northern's profile.

 

[Bletchleyite]

CCTV doesn't prevent crime.

It is however a very effective deterrent.

 

[najaB]

It is however a very effective deterrent.

The jury is out on how effective it is, but in any regard CCTV is most useful for crime detection and investigation - the TVM would still be out of order.

 

[tony_mac]

But this discussion is not about passengers not buying tickets where facilities to exist (and you'll have no argument that such people should have the book thrown at them). Rather it's about Northern dishing out penalties when adequate facilities have not been provided.

Both have been discussed.

(and you'll have no argument that such people should have the book thrown at them)

I will argue about that. Every day, the vast majority of on-train staff implicitly advertise that it's ok to buy on board, and have been doing so for years.

Until something is done about that, I don't believe that the random court threats are a reasonable approach. (Whatever happened to the 'first warning' letter that was originally promised?)

In contrast, Merseyrail (who have a proper penalty fares scheme) are much clearer about getting this message across.

 

[Starmill]

You're right, it is. Along with the passengers responsibility to purchase one using the facilities if they are there yet so many still don't...

And is that really what we're discussing here? Or are we talking about the problems with Northern's treatment of people who haven't yet had an opportunity to pay?

Well there was CCTV when Chiltern and some of FGW stations were being attacked but it didn't stop them from happening - including cameras being put inside looking out - still happened. And your lack of knowledge on this subject is quite large yet you have an opinion.

Oh right, I see. You have a large amount of knowledge on the subject, but you still weren't able to provide those stations with TVMs?

Are you saying they DONT allow people to buy on board form stations that have no facilities? News to me.

You've been reading this thread - right?

Lets be honest - you live in an ideal world with no real day to day knowledge nor understanding the difficulties that we face yet you seem to have all the answers so why not come and join us and get these implemented?

I know how easy or difficult it is for me to buy a ticket and locations I've been to. I buy a lot of tickets! What I'm doing is making suggestions as to how the problem will be solved, and you are saying that any improvment to station facilities is beyond the horizon of possibility? Really? Because if you are I'm afraid I just don't believe you.
[/QUOTE]
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CCTV doesn't prevent crime.

So there's no possible benefit to having it there?
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The jury is out on how effective it is, but in any regard CCTV is most useful for crime detection and investigation - the TVM would still be out of order.

Yes it wasn't a sensible idea from the off was it? Only having fully useable TVMs at every station. It must be impossible and nobody could provide that with a very high level of machine availability. Oh, wait...
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This isn't an insurmountable challenge, but I appreciate it maybe beyond the the resources (or perhaps imagination) some TOCs can muster. In this case why not just stick to selling tickets on board (perhaps investing the resources which would have been spent on ticketing facilities on extra staff to facilitate this) and just admit it's impossible to equitably apply a penalty scheme with a franchise with Northern's profile.

This is the alternative, sensible solution that I believe would work just as well if not better than the sort of TVM the railway industry hasn't even tried to design yet. The answer is clearly not to continue as we are but to pursue one of these approaches - for the umpteenth time they work well elsewhere, there's no reason for Northern to continue to damage its own reputation in this way when it can have high levels of compliance and greater moral standards if they were to change tack.

 

[Clip]

And is that really what we're discussing here? Or are we talking about the problems with Northern's treatment of people who haven't yet had an opportunity to pay?

.

Both have been brought into the discussion which is why I replied in that way.

Oh right, I see. You have a large amount of knowledge on the subject, but you still weren't able to provide those stations with TVMs?

They were and they got robbed even with CCTV both looking at them and on the inside - which I have alluded too twice now - and is why at some stations now you will see big bollards placed in such a way that they shouldn't have another attempt on them. You don't understand about supply so I wont bother trying to inform you of that.
http://www.bucksherald.co.uk/news/chiltern-railways-stations-hit-by-ticket-machine-thefts-1-611685 < theres a little story on it just so you can familiarise yourself on it.

You've been reading this thread - right?



I know how easy or difficult it is for me to buy a ticket and locations I've been to. I buy a lot of tickets! What I'm doing is making suggestions as to how the problem will be solved, and you are saying that any improvment to station facilities is beyond the horizon of possibility? Really? Because if you are I'm afraid I just don't believe you.

I never said it wasn't beyond the horizon of possibility I have been pointing out the difficulty's in supplying remote stations with all the facilities you require when you buy your lots of tickets. As myself and others have said on numerous threads before during and more than likely after this one - how much do you want to pay for this to happen? And seeing how its you Im guessing not a lot because your history is already complaining about high fares!

You simply cant have your cake and eat it im afraid and once you get out into the real world in whatever line your career takes you you will realise this and find that a compromise is the only solution.

even if Northern are doing it cack handedly at present.

 

[crehld]

Both have been discussed.

Indeed they have. My point (albeit poorly expressed) was that discussions on passengers deliberately avoiding opportunities to pay before boarding are completely irrelevant to this discussion. The issue of relevance here is penalties being dished out to passengers who have not had an opportunity to pay, or are legitimately confused by a situation where guards seem to condone bypassing station facilities and buying on board by happily selling fully discounted tickets.

Don't get me wrong I support Northern's policy to crack down on fare evaders with suitable penalties. But that is not the bone of contention on this thread. Rather it's their implementation of this policy, particularly through the £80 settlement / fine / whatever you want to call it, which is nothing short of a farce

I will argue about that. Every day, the vast majority of on-train staff implicitly advertise that it's ok to buy on board, and have been doing so for years.

Until something is done about that, I don't believe that the random court threats are a reasonable approach. (Whatever happened to the 'first warning' letter that was originally promised?)

In contrast, Merseyrail (who have a proper penalty fares scheme) are much clearer about getting this message across.

Yes, I agree wholeheartedly!
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You simply cant have your cake and eat it im afraid and once you get out into the real world in whatever line your career takes you you will realise this and find that a compromise is the only solution.

even if Northern are doing it cack handedly at present.

But Northern's approach isn't just cack handedness. To put it in your words they are trying to have their cake and eat it: they won't / can't invest in adequate ticketing facilities but are still determined to operate a scheme which depends on such facilities being universally available, and run it as such.

I've already outlined a possible compromise:

This isn't an insurmountable challenge, but I appreciate it maybe beyond the the resources (or perhaps imagination) some TOCs can muster. In this case why not just stick to selling tickets on board (perhaps investing the resources which would have been spent on ticketing facilities on extra staff to facilitate this) and just admit it's impossible to equitably apply a penalty scheme with a franchise with Northern's profile.

 

[najaB]

So there's no possible benefit to having [CCTV] there?

I've never claimed that there is no benefit - as Neil Williams has said there is some deterrent effect. I'm pointing out that it isn't a simple case of 'if we put CCTV the machines won't be vandalised' - CCTV reduces crime and aids in detection and investigation but it doesn't prevent it. In our society any TVMs at unstaffed and remote stations *will* be vandalised if they contain cash, there's no avoiding that fact.

 

[Starmill]

OK fine I give up. Northern shouldn't introduce more redesigned cash TVMs in order to make enforcement easier and fairer, just in case they are vandalised. They don't need to alter their current approach; it's working just fine. Nobody is being punished wrongly, and the penalties are clear, fair and proportionate. Northern are getting more revenue and passengers are satisfied with their ways to pay.

What do I know about using the railway or buying tickets? Nothing because I'm likely going to be unemployed.

 

[noddingdonkey]

M-ticketing would surely be a simple way to remove a lot of the issues here, making it simpler for the passenger who wants to buy a ticket but is thwarted by a lack of facilities to do so?

 

[Bletchleyite]

M-ticketing would surely be a simple way to remove a lot of the issues here, making it simpler for the passenger who wants to buy a ticket but is thwarted by a lack of facilities to do so?

That it would, but prepare for the onslaught of "my battery has run out" and a load more £80s...