NXEA Finally respond regarding charging for 1st class when not advertised

[MidnightFlyer]

(I suppose you could go First Class with TPX for the whole 12 minutes to Piccadilly and change to your 175 there )

Which is why such a fare exists. Similarly you could alight at Flint and board 1st Class on a VT / WAG Express service.

 

[table38]

Which is why such a fare exists. Similarly you could alight at Flint and board 1st Class on a VT / WAG Express service.

Point taken, but that would mean changing twice with a 45 minute wait at Piccadilly and a 25 minute wait at Flint (then in my case another 24 minute wait at Rhyl), so I'll maybe not bother

 

[LexyBoy]

The timetable dictates whether or not a train has First Class accomodation. If it says that a train does not have First Class accommodation, then the logical interpretation is that the entire train is Standard Class. What else could it be? If, according to the timetable, the entire train is Standard Class, just because some seats have First Class antimacassars and First Class stickers on the windows does not automatically mean that those seats are "First Class."

Whilst DaveNewcaslte makes a valid point, I disagree. The NRCoC discusses travelling in First Class accommodation with a Standard Class ticket. The timetable says that there isn't any First Class accommodation on Norwich to Sheringham trains, so the OP was not travelling in First Class accomodation with a Standard Class ticket.

I am completely disgusted by NXEA's customer service, and their lack of knowledge, reasonableness and common sense. Goodbye NXEA, Hello AGA!

Why does the timetable determine whether a train carries FC accomodation? The accomodation doesn't magically change depending when or where the train is running.

The NRCOC's text means to of, and I'd think most people, what is on the train- not the timetable.

By your reasoning everyone travelling on a standard ticket where first is advertised could be PF'd since all those "standard class" signs are overruled by the timetable.

It may be the case that everyone else declassifies FC when it's not in the timetable, which is fine, but as far as I can see it's not a requirement nor is it publicised anywhere.

 

[Bedpan]

I thought ONE introduced them before FCC did? I'm pretty sure there was an evening peak introduced from Liverpool Street before it came in at King's Cross.

I'm not absolutely certain, I thought FCC was before One, they introduced it in Summer 2006 amidst a huge furore which I don't think would have been so much the case if One had done it first.

There was a thread on here, statred in 7.6.06 where somebody was asking for advice on the best tickets to buy in order to get from Kings Cross to Cambridge in the evening peak, and the answer was "Go from Liverpool Street".

In any case, the One restriction was only a fairly easily managable 17.00 until 18.15, and the difference between an Anytime and Off Peak return was, at least from Ware, only about £4, whereas (without looking it up to be exact) it's about £9 difference on FCC (from Harpenden) - more for me as a Network Card holder at the time). There was/is nothing more galling than seeing a succession of 1/3 empty trains departing from St Pancras after 16.30 and not being able to travel on them beyond Elstree, by which tinmme they were less than half full.

 

[jon0844]

Services often have no first class advertised due to a mix of stock, some that may not have FC. Hence many peak FCC trains due to some running with 313s.

 

[All Line Rover]

By your reasoning everyone travelling on a standard ticket where first is advertised could be PF'd since all those "standard class" signs are overruled by the timetable.

No, as if a train conveys First Class accommodation, the timetable says: "This train conveys First Class accommodation." The timetable often says "This train has Standard Class accommodation only," but I have never seen a timetable say: "This train has First Class accommodation only!"

 

[Mojo]

'one' (National Express) definitely did it first, but initially did not include Off-peak Outboundary Travelcards which is why there was less of a furore about it, especially from TfL.

 

[RJ]

Conversely, I travelled to North Wales today and the TVM at Stalybridge offered me a First Class fare... this was for a Northern 156 to Newton-le-Willows, and an ATW 175 from there, neither of which have any First Class accomodation.

You could change at Chester for a Virgin Trains service which does convey First Class...not so shocking that such a fare is offered from a ticket machine.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Why does the timetable determine whether a train carries FC accomodation? The accomodation doesn't magically change depending when or where the train is running.

A service conveys First Class accommodation if both conditions apply;

a.) There is First Class accomodation on the train.
b.) The timetable shows that there is First Class accommodation on the train.

 

[button_boxer]

A service conveys First Class accommodation if both conditions apply;

a.) There is First Class accomodation on the train.
b.) The timetable shows that there is First Class accommodation on the train.

That has been asserted many times both in this thread and elsewhere, I think the question was whether this assertion is officially documented, and if so where. Can you post a link?

 

[pemma]

Conversely, I travelled to North Wales today and the TVM at Stalybridge offered me a First Class fare... this was for a Northern 156 to Newton-le-Willows, and an ATW 175 from there, neither of which have any First Class accomodation.

(I suppose you could go First Class with TPX for the whole 12 minutes to Piccadilly and change to your 175 there )

You could also walk from Warrington Bank Quay to Warrington Central.

More seriously travelling via Crewe would have been valid, so you could have got TPE to Piccadilly, VT to Crewe and then VT to North Wales - all having First Class.

FC tickets are available for journeys involving connections which have only standard class. Someone who's doing 100 miles in FC shouldn't have to buy two tickets because of 7 miles done at the start/end of their journey on a local train with only standard class.

 

[table38]

You could also walk from Warrington Bank Quay to Warrington Central.

More seriously travelling via Crewe would have been valid, so you could have got TPE to Piccadilly, VT to Crewe and then VT to North Wales - all having First Class.

All of this is true (although I suspect you meant walking from Central to Bank Quay) but would your average normal passenger have done all that research beforehand? If they had just turned up for the train and thought "let's treat ourselves and go First Class" they would certainly have been disappointed. I'm not sure telling them after the event that they could have gone First Class by a more tortuous route which would more than double their journey time would have made them feel any better

I shall check the TVM in case the First Class option has something like "but you wouldn't't really want to" on the help screen

 

[HH]

I'm not absolutely certain, I thought FCC was before One, they introduced it in Summer 2006 amidst a huge furore which I don't think would have been so much the case if One had done it first.

There was a thread on here, statred in 7.6.06 where somebody was asking for advice on the best tickets to buy in order to get from Kings Cross to Cambridge in the evening peak, and the answer was "Go from Liverpool Street".

In any case, the One restriction was only a fairly easily managable 17.00 until 18.15, and the difference between an Anytime and Off Peak return was, at least from Ware, only about £4, whereas (without looking it up to be exact) it's about £9 difference on FCC (from Harpenden) - more for me as a Network Card holder at the time). There was/is nothing more galling than seeing a succession of 1/3 empty trains departing from St Pancras after 16.30 and not being able to travel on them beyond Elstree, by which tinmme they were less than half full.

Perhaps they got the detail wrong, but the principal of keeping reduced ticket passengers off trains that were already full and standing is a sound one in my opinion. Will they relax it once they have 24 tph though?

 

[RichardJ]

Why does the timetable determine whether a train carries FC accomodation? The accomodation doesn't magically change depending when or where the train is running.

Looking at it the other way, unless the timetable specifies whether first class is available, a prospective passenger would not know whether it was worth buying a first class ticket. You can't expect people to pay for first class tickets in the vague hope that a train with a coach marked in a certain way might turn up.
Anyway, in many cases first class isn't just about the size of the seat - it's about the level of service and catering, etc, which you won't magically receive just because certain stock turns up.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

Whilst DaveNewcaslte makes a valid point, I disagree. The NRCoC discusses travelling in First Class accommodation with a Standard Class ticket. The timetable says that there isn't any First Class accommodation on Norwich to Sheringham trains, so the OP was not travelling in First Class accomodation with a Standard Class ticket.

Thank you for taking the trouble to comment on my post.
However, I must stand by my observation, which is not in the least way undermined by your implication that a passenger could not have been travelling in first class accomodation while actually sitting in that accomodation beacuse a timetable didn't mention it.
I had not considered that there could be a prerequisite for the existence of first class accom (which looks, feels, and is named first class) that it would also be mentioned in a timetable. But not having considered it, I've been happy to do so now.
I remain in no doubt, that the existence of First Class accomodation on a train is a matter of fact (and existential and ontological fact if you like). It is not a matter determined by a prior wriiten record in a timetable.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

They've also got the rather well run c2c franchise. Everyone keeps saying that NX should be last for any new franchises, but doesn't that ignore the fact that it's a sealed bid process so no one knows whose bidding until fairly far into the process?

They can, however, filter out "undesirables" at the pre-qualification stage though can't they? The sealed bid process is the second stage.

 

[Lee_Again]

never seen a timetable say: "This train has First Class accommodation only!"

"The Manchester Pullman was a first-class-only Pullman passenger train operated by British Rail, targeted at business travellers. The service began in 1966, operating between Manchester Piccadilly and London Euston, and offered an at-seat restaurant service to all passengers."

The first few words on Wikipedia - Manchester Pullman.

 

[HH]

They can, however, filter out "undesirables" at the pre-qualification stage though can't they? The sealed bid process is the second stage.

Exactly. This is how they have gotten rid of bidders they didn't want in the past, as Dean should know (it was how First were excluded from bidding for Greater Anglia, which everyone believes was payback for Dean stitching them up over FNW).

 

[Old Timer]

I think the test on this situation is whether or not a first class fare is available for use on the line.

Now a check of NRE elicits the fact that there is NO first class fare for the route Norwich to Sheringham, HOWEVER, this needs to be qualified by the fact that NXEA DO operate a Weekend First supplement for travelling first class. The terms stated indicate this is only available on Saturdays, Sundays and Bank Holidays. Because it is quoted as a "supplement" rather than a fare as such, this would give it a wider applicability to cover journeys where rolling stock with First Class accommodation is provided, even though there may be no fare.

I know saying this will be unpopular and will no doubt generate a lot of criticism however the facts are that there IS a supplement payable, and it DID apply on the day that the OP travelled. The Guard was quite correct in that she had the right (and indeed should have to act correctly) charged the First Class supplement.

As there is no supplement payable Monday to Friday, then there is no excess charge that can be raised as thus there is no specific issue in sitting in First Class. The test is CAN an excess charge be raised - in the case of Mon to Fri there is not and thus there is no fare avoided.

DaveNewcastle is correct in his determination of the situation with First Class. I would just add in support of his post the arrangements that applied under BR, and still do which is that technically unless First Class accommodation is declassified, the fact that the train may be running on a service for which there is no First Class accommodation specified in the timetable does not ordinarily confer the right for a passenger to occupy a First Class seat with a Standard Class ticket.

Where rolling stock is filling in for a normally Standard Class only service is running with First Class vehicles, then the stock should be declassified or a suitable announcement made permitting the use of the First Class facilities where the loadings suggest such a course of action is desireable.

Wherer rolling stock is operating on a line where there is no First Class FARE and thus service, then obviously there is no need to declassify, as there is no First Class fare and no excess charge can be raised (except as pointed out earlier).

Note, the indications of the seating classes shown in the timetable are for indicative purposes only, and are intended to indicate WHICH services are booked to run with First Class accommodation so that passengers wishing to travel First Class may avail themselves of this facility. As mentioned above, this does NOT give a carte blanche to travel First Class on a train which is shown as being Standard Class service only on routes where First Class is provided.

 

[All Line Rover]

Thank you for taking the trouble to comment on my post.
However, I must stand by my observation, which is not in the least way undermined by your implication that a passenger could not have been travelling in first class accomodation while actually sitting in that accomodation beacuse a timetable didn't mention it.
I had not considered that there could be a prerequisite for the existence of first class accom (which looks, feels, and is named first class) that it would also be mentioned in a timetable. But not having considered it, I've been happy to do so now.
I remain in no doubt, that the existence of First Class accomodation on a train is a matter of fact (and existential and ontological fact if you like). It is not a matter determined by a prior wriiten record in a timetable.

Of course, which is why I said you made a valid point.

It is impossible to give a firm "YES" or "NO" answer to the OP's problem, because there are no concrete rules. But it is unusual (and poor customer service) for NXEA to refuse to "go with the flow."

Maybe "unusual" isn't the right word on an NX thread.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Oh, and before people try to criticize my interpretation of the rules, let me point out that I have never travelled on a train that had declassified First Class accommodation because First Class was not mentioned in the timetable. I've spotted a few, but I've never travelled on one, so I'm not trying to take advantage of a loophole here!

 

[jon0844]

So they can't charge extra in the week/peak but can at weekends?

 

[Old Timer]

So they can't charge extra in the week/peak but can at weekends?

That is my interpretation, based upon the fact that the only excess charge that can be raised is at a weekend. Sounds silly I know but that is my reading of the situation.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

That is my interpretation, based upon the fact that the only excess charge that can be raised is at a weekend. Sounds silly I know but that is my reading of the situation.

I'm not at all clear about this 'weekend only' question.

The strong reason for agreeing with Old Timer is the blaringly obvious clue in the name of the product: "Weekend First".
The reason for hesitating to conclude that it cannot be applied on weekdays is in NXEA's description of the product : available "Between any two stations served by a National Express East Anglia reservable mainline service".

In view of those 2 factors, I agree that I'd be surprised to see the suppliment applied on a weekday, but perhaps its no more surprising than seeing First Class accommodation on the line, so maybe I should conclude that its not common but not impossible both to find both First Class accom. and to have the First Class suppliment applied, on any day of the week.
In practice, I'd be more than a little surprised if it was.

Also quoted from NXEA "Holders of most Standard tickets can travel in extra comfort on certain Operators’ services listed below, on Saturdays, Sundays and Bank Holidays in First Class accommodation labelled "Weekend First" so I think we'd have to be quite perverse to also offer those suppliments on weekdays, but its certainly not dissallowed!

 

[jon0844]

If they tried to sell weekend first in the week, it would be even more laughable and probably not beyond them.

 

[dcd]

The reason for hesitating to conclude that it cannot be applied on weekdays is in NXEA's description of the product : available "Between any two stations served by a National Express East Anglia reservable mainline service".

I think you will find that Norwich to Sheringham is not reservable so it is not applicable at weekends either on this route.