Overshot station scam

[bengley]

The problem is, there's no incentive for gateline staff to check tickets properly and if the passenger has the wrong ticket there's nothing the gateline can do anyway most of the time!

 

[Hadders]

Given that I saw a Virgin Train in Euston on Thursday last week (1733 Liverpool Lime Street IIRC) which said this on the door screens:

Quote:
THIS IS A PEAK TRAIN!!!!!

I'm assuming the industry don't think there is a problem..

The TOC's want us all to think that there are 'peak' trains and they do a good job of this as that it the view of the general public and many of their staff.

Of course those of us on here know that this is nonsense and that there is no such thing as a 'peak' train, restrictions being determined by the restriction code applicable to each ticket.

 

[LateThanNever]

It seems to me that there's a relatively easy solution which could significantly improve things. A staff terminal/kiosk or PDA per gate line which can read tickets and properly interpret restrictions. Staff could scan the ticket and be told the validity for all departures over the next hour or 2. They would only need to do that if they are inclined to reject a ticket, not for those they think are ok. It really can't be that hard to build such a system, can it? Doesn't feel like it would be too expensive in the grand scheme of things, or need that much training.

Surely if Tesco can produce Clubcard to track your every purchase and suggest other things you might like (and similarly the less good Nectar) cannot that technology be tweaked by the rail companies to organise it.This is another reason that strict liability should be revued - it is far too easy to put the onus on the customer for the complicated fare system. The railcos should definitely bear that onus!

 

[DelayRepay]

Surely if Tesco can produce Clubcard to track your every purchase and suggest other things you might like (and similarly the less good Nectar) cannot that technology be tweaked by the rail companies to organise it.This is another reason that strict liability should be revued - it is far too easy to put the onus on the customer for the complicated fare system. The railcos should definitely bear that onus!

Why do you need a kiosk or technology? Most stations have a ticket office/information desk where you can check the validity of your ticket, or you could ask the guard as you board the train.

There is a difference between asking staff if you're ticket's valid and just waving it in their direction and expecting them to identify whether it is or not.

 

[jon0844]

Anyone can check restriction codes via the web, but even if you show staff a web site (or print out) it seems many staff will be more than happy to say you're wrong and the website is wrong! How do you proceed from there?

I once produced a TOC timetable to an RPI who said I was sitting in first class with a standard class ticket, and he didn't believe me until he checked his own. Like I'd actually fake a timetable to remove the '1' on selected services...!

 

[sheff1]

Most stations have a ticket office/information desk where you can check the validity of your ticket, or you could ask the guard as you board the train.

If only that were true.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Why do you need a kiosk or technology? Most stations have a ticket office/information desk where you can check the validity of your ticket, or you could ask the guard as you board the train.

Not if you are stopped at the barrier you can't.

 

[WelshBluebird]

Why do you need a kiosk or technology? Most stations have a ticket office/information desk where you can check the validity of your ticket, or you could ask the guard as you board the train.

But you are no where near guaranteed to get the correct answer!

 

[RJ]

Why do you need a kiosk or technology? Most stations have a ticket office/information desk where you can check the validity of your ticket, or you could ask the guard as you board the train.

Controversial statement.

 

[Class377]

Controversial statement.

To be fair, 99% of people will have simple tickets that are mostly point-to-point. It's only the odd one that has a bizarre routing like yours that will cause problems, but if I was saving such a vast amount of money by trying something so obscure I'd expect the staff to be unaware of it.

(Surely, by definition, they should be unaware of it, because if they knew about it they'd change the restrictions so that you couldn't enjoy such a cheap ticket?)

 

[Agent_c]

Not if you are stopped at the barrier you can't.

If only there was some sort of device that could fit in the pocket of barrier staff, for which we could programme software such that the person could look up the service being travelled on and compare it to some code printed on the ticket in order to get a simple "yes/no" validity result.... Perhaps the staff could also use it to initiate vocal communications with other staff members in headquarters in the event of an issue.... but what would we call such a device?

 

[WelshBluebird]

To be fair, 99% of people will have simple tickets that are mostly point-to-point. It's only the odd one that has a bizarre routing like yours that will cause problems, but if I was saving such a vast amount of money by trying something so obscure I'd expect the staff to be unaware of it.

Errr no.
There have been many occasions reported on this very forum where staff have given incorrect details regarding the restrictions on simple point to point tickets (with no bizarre routing). The peak / off peak issue at Paddington is a good example of that.
Of course I do not expect every member of staff to memorise every single restriction (because that is simply impossible!) but there is no reason why staff should not be able to look the restrictions up for a passenger (on board staff I see why that would not be as easy, but certainly there is no excuse for station bound staff).

 

[RJ]

To be fair, 99% of people will have simple tickets that are mostly point-to-point. It's only the odd one that has a bizarre routing like yours that will cause problems, but if I was saving such a vast amount of money by trying something so obscure I'd expect the staff to be unaware of it.

(Surely, by definition, they should be unaware of it, because if they knew about it they'd change the restrictions so that you couldn't enjoy such a cheap ticket?)

What relevance has this got to ticket office staff being able to provide quality advice on time restrictions? If I could understand, perhaps I could provide you with a meaningful response.

Funnily enough, none of my past creative ticketing arrangements ever involved asking ticket office staff for help.

 

[Hadders]

To be fair, 99% of people will have simple tickets that are mostly point-to-point.

Many of the disputes we read about on here are about simple point-to-point tickets. The difficulty often comes when it comes to the time restrictions for off peak tickets.

For example, on every East Coast Train departing from Kings Cross in the afternoon after 1500 the guard announces before departure that 'Super Off Peak tickets are NOT valid on this train and you must return to the platform or purchase a full priced ticket'.

Now, while most super off peak tickets aren't allowed at this time there are some that are. For example the return portion of a Stevenage-Bath Super Off Peak Return is valid for travel between Kings Cross and Stevenage at any time.

What would the average passenger do when they hear this announcement? I suspect the vast majority would catch a later train or end up paying more than they need to.

 

[plastictaffy]

If I was the guard, at this point a MG11 would be getting filled out.

Like hell. I don't get paid enough to mess about confirming details of people, that's what RPI's are - oh, never mind.

 

[sarahj]

Anyone can check restriction codes via the web, but even if you show staff a web site (or print out) it seems many staff will be more than happy to say you're wrong and the website is wrong! How do you proceed from there?

I once produced a TOC timetable to an RPI who said I was sitting in first class with a standard class ticket, and he didn't believe me until he checked his own. Like I'd actually fake a timetable to remove the '1' on selected services...!

I have to admit I once did that to a punter. Seems the train, used be the first Brighton to Victoria became a 'metro' service past East Croydon, with no first class from then onwards. so i checked someone in first, said need to move, he said no first class. Checked up and he was correct. Felt a

 

[timbo58]

I remember having a VERY late Cardiff terminating HST that terminated at Bristol Parkway [BPW] one evening due to no traction coming up to BPW and having to get an assisting HST to drag us!

I went through that train probably around 20 times from 1st to the TGS and back again, I approached EVERY passenger on it and made P/A announcements that I would be endorsing ALL tickets or giving a slip to all season ticket holders just in case there were any connection issues caused (we were about 90 minutes late in the end).

Everyone else was grumpy but understood I was doing my best to alleviate any issues.

I stopped doing revenue I'd say about 20 mins before arrival at BPW -as we were dragged up the bank, and after putting up the (long) bar and getting covered in thick brown grease.

As we limped within sight of BPW I made a final announcement to let everyone know they'd need to show tickets etc at the barrier to get their taxis homeward.

As I left the train a young lad (who I had definitely NOT seen previously) announced he needed a ticket from BPW to Swansea.

As I'd closed my machine some time ago I refused and following him towards the excess fares window overheard him then asking for a Swindon [SWI] - Swansea [SWA] cheap single, I intervened as he had made no attempt whatsoever to buy a ticket before he realised it would allow him a taxi free of charge to Swansea!

In fact he admitted he'd hidden in the toilet all the way from DID. Luckily he'd used one that had been left unlocked but with an OOO sticker on it so I hadn't 'twigged'.

Unluckily for him none of the staff or the booking office would sell him a ticket to then allow him to have a £100+ free taxi journey on us. They sold him an Anytime Day Single (SDS) DID-BPW and turfed him off to the bus stop.

It gave me a laugh anyway.

 

[Flamingo]

Nice one!

 

[plastictaffy]

That's excellent, Timbo. Probably made a rubbish day quite a lot better!!

 

[timbo58]

Yeah, it was pretty crap to be fair for all concerned, it's just that the b**ger could have come to me at any time in over 2 1/2 hours and 'fessed up and got a ticket.

I might have ever sold the b**ger a Saver if he'd had a reasonable excuse for not using the booking office at DID, but no, he chanced his arm and he lost -big time.

I got home nearly 3 hours late after taking a taxi back to Bristol Temple Meads [BRI] and booking off.

 

[PermitToTravel]

I remember having a VERY late Cardiff terminating HST that terminated at BPW one evening due to no traction coming up to BPW and having to get an assisting HST to drag us!

I went through that train probably around 20 times from 1st to the TGS and back again, I approached EVERY passenger on it and made P/A announcements that I would be endorsing ALL tickets or giving a slip to all season ticket holders JIC there were any connection issues caused (we were about 90 m late in the end).
Everyone else was grumpy but understood I was doing my best to alleviate any issues.

I stopped doing revenue I'd say about 20 mins before arrival at BPW -as we were dragged up the bank, and after putting up the (long) bar and getting covered in thick brown grease.

As we limped within sight of BPW I made a final announcement to let everyone know they'd need to show tickets etc at the barrier to get their taxis homeward.

As I left the train a young lad (who I had definitely NOT seen previously) announced he needed a ticket from DPW to Swansea.

As I'd closed my machine some time ago I refused and following him towards the excess fares window overheard him then asking for a SDN -SWA cheap single, I intervened as he had made no attempt whatsoever to buy a ticket before he realised it would allow him a taxi FOC to swansea!
In fact he admitted he'd hidden in the toilet all the way from DPW. Luckily he'd used one that had been left unlocked but with an OOO sticker on it so I hadn't 'twigged'.

Unluckily for him none of the staff or the booking office would sell him a ticket to then allow him to have a £100+ free taxi journey on us. They sold him a SDS DPW-BPW and turfed him off to the bus stop.

It gave me a laugh anyway.

Lovely story
Would I be right in guessing that by DPW you mean Didcot Parkway [DID] and by SDN you mean Swindon [SWI]?

 

[yorkie]

Lovely story
Would I be right in guessing that by DPW you mean Didcot Parkway [DID] and by SDN you mean Swindon [SWI]?

It took me a while to work out that DPW was DID! I've made some adjustments so it should make perfect sense now.

 

[timbo58]

Yes mate, unfortunately 6 years have passed since I 'retired' so I haven't made up the short codes properly. oops
I'm sure we always abbreviated BRI as BTM in notebooks, although appreciate this is probably wrong!
FWIW the bog was OOU not OOO.

 

[PermitToTravel]

You love your TLAs!

 

[timbo58]

ahem. I can only apologise sincerely for any confusion caused. It made sense to me, but as Yorkie has very correctly pointed out, it was almost completely incorrect! My very bad memory, thank god I'll never do another route learning exam over the plethora of routes I used to 'sign's I could probably get junctions/tunnels/signalling areas and speed limits ok but as for loops and minor (foot) level crossings I'd have no chance!

 

[bb21]

We don't want to sound petty on the use of abbreviations. The issue is that over time, the forum has got used to using CRS codes as standard, which then means that to maintain clarity and consistency (BTM is not too bad, as it doesn't exist as a CRS code, but LLS is an infamous example), we require that three-letter abbreviations to be correct in accordance with CRS codes (and explained at first use in a thread so that their meaning is accessible to all).

Other abbreviations can of course be used, as long as they are explained before use, and common sense will be applied where possible with regard to any sensible abbreviation which is not three letters long.

 

[plastictaffy]

ahem. I can only apologise sincerely for any confusion caused. It made sense to me, but as Yorkie has very correctly pointed out, it was almost completely incorrect! My very bad memory, thank god I'll never do another route learning exam over the plethora of routes I used to 'sign's I could probably get junctions/tunnels/signalling areas and speed limits ok but as for loops and minor (foot) level crossings I'd have no chance!

Plethora of routes?? Where did you sign? I'm intrigued. I'd love to sign a plethora of routes!!

 

[timbo58]

No probs bb21, and even though it's way off the thread really PT:

In my 15 years (not all at exactly the same time as the depot changed it's requirements but most at the same time even then!)

Bristol TM -Padd via Box
Swansea- Padd via Wootton Bassett Jn
Plymouth - Padd via Cogload Jn & Westbury
Westbury to Bathampton Jn
Bradford Jn to Thingley Jn via Melksham
Westbury to Frome
Taunton (Cogload Jn) to Bristol TM via Bridgwater
Bristol TM to Bristol PW
Newport to Hereford via Maindee Jn and Abergavenny
Hereford to Didcot Pway via Oxford
Worcester FS to Chelt Spa
Chelt Spa to Gloucester
Gloucester to Swindon via Kemble
Bristol PW to Gloucester
Waterloo - (I think to) Acton Main Line (sleeper trains)

I even guarded an HST with pilot (obv) to Weymouth on a special to Weymouth from somewhere once and even more excitingly on the West Somerset Railway!

and signed loco hauled, HSTs, 158's and 180's, phew that was a lot of work!
Surprised I ever had time for doing tickets!

 

[Antman]

Just recently a bloke sitting opposite me was 'asleep' when RPI's came down the train after leaving Stevenage next stop Finsbury Park, funny but he had seemed wide awake just a few minutes earlier. The RPI managed to 'wake' him and on looking at his ticket pointed out that we had passed Stevenage (obviously to where his ticket was valid) "oh no" came the reply as he rubbed his eyes "what am I going to do now?". The RPI said he should really charge him for a return from Stevenage to Finsbury Park but he would give him the benefit of the doubt this time and marked his ticket accordingly. I got off at Finsbury Park as well (barriers were open anyway) and watched this bloke, sure enough instead of going across to the nortbound platform he disappeared down onto the tube!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I witnessed what I believe was an interesting scam recently.

I was on an afternoon train that was non-stop York to London. A woman with two small children also boarded at York. When the TM came to check tickets, she produced an ticket for London Kings Cross to Stevenage for a time earlier in the day and claimed to have accidentally boarded the wrong train which was first stop York.

The TM doubted this, questioning why she didn't board a train from York that stopped at Peterborough or Stevenage, but the passenger played up being a foreigner and confused about our rail system or something. She wasn't that confused though, as she then had the foresight and cheek to ask the TM to endorse her ticket so she could get through the Kings Cross gates, which the TM declined to do, as she wouldn't need to pass through any gates to join the (later) Stevenage train.

As predicted, upon arrival at Kings Cross, the gates were unmanned and left open as usual, and the passenger headed straight out and into the Underground. For a foreigner who supposedly was confused about our rail network, she knew exactly where she was going to get on the appropriate tube train with no need to stop or consult any signs or maps.

It's pretty clear to me that the passenger probably didn't originate in London, and bought the cheap London to Stevenage ticket purely to use to spin the sob story during the ticket check of their actual journey (York - London). Due to the lack of ticket gates at York and the ones at Kings Cross not being in operation most of the off-peak, this scam is very easy to pull off.

This is the problem with discretion - for every honest mistake there is always someone who will exploit the discretion like this. It was very frustrating to witness, as my hunch was only proven after we arrived at Kings Cross, and by then it was too late to do anything about it. If only the gates were actually manned...

I suspect somebody as clued up as this woman obviously was would have just tail gated somebody else through the gates at Kings Cross:cry:

 

[Flamingo]

Then there are threads asking why RPI's and guards treat everybody as a suspected criminal...