Overshot station scam

[maniacmartin]

I witnessed what I believe was an interesting scam recently.

I was on an afternoon train that was non-stop York to London. A woman with two small children also boarded at York. When the TM came to check tickets, she produced an ticket for London Kings Cross to Stevenage for a time earlier in the day and claimed to have accidentally boarded the wrong train which was first stop York.

The TM doubted this, questioning why she didn't board a train from York that stopped at Peterborough or Stevenage, but the passenger played up being a foreigner and confused about our rail system or something. She wasn't that confused though, as she then had the foresight and cheek to ask the TM to endorse her ticket so she could get through the Kings Cross gates, which the TM declined to do, as she wouldn't need to pass through any gates to join the (later) Stevenage train.

As predicted, upon arrival at Kings Cross, the gates were unmanned and left open as usual, and the passenger headed straight out and into the Underground. For a foreigner who supposedly was confused about our rail network, she knew exactly where she was going to get on the appropriate tube train with no need to stop or consult any signs or maps.

It's pretty clear to me that the passenger probably didn't originate in London, and bought the cheap London to Stevenage ticket purely to use to spin the sob story during the ticket check of their actual journey (York - London). Due to the lack of ticket gates at York and the ones at Kings Cross not being in operation most of the off-peak, this scam is very easy to pull off.

This is the problem with discretion - for every honest mistake there is always someone who will exploit the discretion like this. It was very frustrating to witness, as my hunch was only proven after we arrived at Kings Cross, and by then it was too late to do anything about it. If only the gates were actually manned...

 

[najaB]

She wasn't that confused though, as she then had the foresight and cheek to ask the TM to endorse her ticket so she could get through the Kings Cross gates...

If I was the guard, at this point a MG11 would be getting filled out.

 

[Mojo]

If I was the guard, at this point a MG11 would be getting filled out.

With today's increasingly transient population, even bothering to attempt to obtain the name and address of someone, particularly someone who claims to be foreign, is pretty much pointless.

 

[najaB]

With today's increasingly transient population, even bothering to attempt to obtain the name and address of someone, particularly someone who claims to be foreign, is pretty much pointless.

Agreed it may not come to much, but it might make people pause for a moment before they try scams like this.

 

[Flamingo]

I've had this before. It's why the NRCoC allow us to charge people who claim to have missed their stop. I sometimes will. I'll sometimes tell people they need a return ticket from the "missed" stop to the next station and back again, this really concentrates the mind!

But the comment about a transient population is correct. Travellers, as a prime example, are a group where there is no point in getting a name and address ("I'm in a halting point in Kent, I don't know the name, you're being racist and picking on me" is the usual answer".) The only option, quite often, is bounce them off and try and get them out of the barriers.

 

[najaB]

The only option, quite often, is bounce them off and try and get them out of the barriers.

If the TOC really wanted to they could arrange for someone at the station to escort the passenger to the 'correct' train when they get to the terminal station - in the name of good customer service for this poor, confused foreigner.

 

[yorkie]

..Due to the lack of ticket gates at York and the ones at Kings Cross not being in operation most of the off-peak, this scam is very easy to pull off...

If there were gates in operation, then a York-Poppleton single, plus making the original ticket a return (or, alternatively, a Finsbury Park-King's Cross single) is what the scammer would have purchased in addition. If they were clever enough to do what they did, an extra ticket to Poppleton would be easy for them to think of.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Transient populations are impossible to fine, really. They can't produce an address and, even if they could, you couldn't check it.

Doughnutting isn't that uncommon. I see it enough on my line. The people doing it are always, er, transient.

The dishonest do not get fined, hence why TOCs always go for low-hanging fruit.

 

[Flamingo]

Transient populations are impossible to fine, really. They can't produce an address and, even if they could, you couldn't check it.

Doughnutting isn't that uncommon. I see it enough on my line. The people doing it are always, er, transient.

The dishonest do not get fined, hence why TOCs always go for low-hanging fruit.

I take it you don't go fishing?

 

[LowLevel]

Been there, done that, had them met by revenue and police at the next stop to 'show them' the next express back to where they came from and claimed to want to go. For the record they had a Stockport to Manchester CTLZ ticket and mysteriously found their way on to a fast Sheffield service on platform 0 at the opposite side of the station.

Funnily enough their demeanour changed entirely when they saw the welcome party.

 

[Flamingo]

I've had a Reading-Tilehurst ticket (with a broad Cardiff accent) on a Pad-Swa going non-stop Reading - Bath. He was most upset when told that although it "Was not my fault I got on the wrong train, the screen said this was the Tilehurst train, Bud", he was going to have to buy a return ticket from Tilehurst to Bath to get him back to Tilehurst. (As to why he didn't wonder why it was over an hour since leaving Reading, he'd never been to Tilehurst before and didn't know how far it was).

Funnily enough, he eventually decided he wanted a ticket to Barry...

 

[trentside]

I've had this before. It's why the NRCoC allow us to charge people who claim to have missed their stop. I sometimes will. I'll sometimes tell people they need a return ticket from the "missed" stop to the next station and back again, this really concentrates the mind!

We have a slightly different scenario at one of our stations where two trains depart to the same destination via different routes - we regularly pick up people for the other service (despite departure screens, announcements etc), and they then have a long double back to do. Mostly they're fine, but the odd one will have a temper tantrum and will end up paying the £13 return to the next station.

As for people "missing their stop" it really depends on the "attitude test" for me to a degree, and also a gut feeling about whether they're genuine or not. In the genuine cases, there's a lot of panic and usually they offer to pay to the point where they can double back - if they're sat casually, staring out the window then I'm more suspicious.

 

[Flamingo]

We have a slightly different scenario at one of our stations where two trains depart to the same destination via different routes - we regularly pick up people for the other service (despite departure screens, announcements etc), and they then have a long double back to do. Mostly they're fine, but the odd one will have a temper tantrum and will end up paying the £13 return to the next station.

As for people "missing their stop" it really depends on the "attitude test" for me to a degree, and also a gut feeling about whether they're genuine or not. In the genuine cases, there's a lot of panic and usually they offer to pay to the point where they can double back - if they're sat casually, staring out the window then I'm more suspicious.

Yea, I work an evening West Country train, and a Hereford train goes off the platform beside it fifteen minutes earlier. Regardless of announcements, about one in threee evenings I'll find somebody for Oxford or Morton on Marsh sitting oblivious as we are leaving Newbury or Pewsey. ( It's a busy train to Newbury and one usually doesnt get a full ticket check finished until after Newbury).

 

[TEW]

It's amazing the number of people we have at Guildford with tickets to Woking who have 'fallen asleep' then in the 6 minute journey from Woking have managed to wake up and call someone to pick them up at Guildford. It's almost as if they knew they were coming to Guildford all along.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

Some of these instances would be captured by Section 103 of the 1845 Railway Clauses Consolidation Act:-

103 Penalty on passengers practising frauds on the company.

if any person knowingly and wilfully refuse or neglect, on arriving at the point to which he has paid his fare, to quit such carriage, every such person shall for every such offence forfeit a sum not exceeding level 1 on the standard scale.​

The concept on "willfull neglect" in failing to leave a train is interesting.

 

[Crossover]

I was at Kings Cross at around 15:30 yesterday afternoon and the barriers were in operation then. However, a hapless Greater Anglia guard had punched my ticket through the magstripe, so it wouldn't work the gates. A member of gateline staff let me through at Kings Cross, but didn't check what ticket I held, so even with a short ticket, you may get through!

 

[causton]

I was at Kings Cross at around 15:30 yesterday afternoon and the barriers were in operation then. However, a hapless Greater Anglia guard had punched my ticket through the magstripe, so it wouldn't work the gates. A member of gateline staff let me through at Kings Cross, but didn't check what ticket I held, so even with a short ticket, you may get through!

It is almost useless to have the Kings Cross gates in existence, one of the three sets (front of platforms "exit" side, "entry" side at side of platforms, and the "suburban" gateline) is always seemingly open, if not they either let you through with anything (I flipped open the wrong part of my ticket wallet by mistake and showed them my railcard instead of my pass, they let me through! (and no I wasn't in uniform!)) or one wide gate seems to be open at the end anyway to let people through...

 

[Abpj17]

It's amazing the number of people we have at Guildford with tickets to Woking who have 'fallen asleep' then in the 6 minute journey from Woking have managed to wake up and call someone to pick them up at Guildford. It's almost as if they knew they were coming to Guildford all along.

It's not entirely infeasible - but unlikely for the number suggested lol.

I'll oversleep once every few months (but have never met the guard). About 50% of the time I'll wake up just as the doors are closing for my stop.

If there were ever an RPI I assume it probably wouldn't be a big deal - they must be used to sleepy looking commuters doubling back.

 

[Hadders]

in my experience the gates at Kings Cross are often left open, especially in the peaks. To be fair there are a number of issues with the gates:

There are effectively five gate lines - platforms 9-11, the bridge, the one adjacent to platform 8 leading into the new concourse and the one if front of platforms 1-8 leading to the square in front of the station (this is effectively two gate lines as it is too long and separated by the war memorial to be operated as one). So many staff are required to man the gate lines that it can't be worthwhile for much of the time.

Add to this that, with the exception of the ones near platforms 9-11, the gate lines are staffed by East Coast. Generally their passengers will have had their tickets inspected on board as EC operate longer distance services (I know this doesn't always happen but that's the theory)

Therefore East Coast are operating the barriers for the benefit of Great Northern. What incentive is for them to do this?

 

[jon0844]

I don't know, but an EC member of (agency?) staff on the bridge did a great job of making me miss two trains - yes, two - by refusing to let me travel in the evening peak with a valid ticket. So, I'd rather they left the gates open!

 

[yorkie]

I find that gateline staff either accept anything (the best example is Birmingham New St [BHM] accepting a bite card!) or reject valid tickets (as in jonmorris0844's example, or the many examples at London Paddington).

Imagine the training and equipment and staffing levels that would be required to ensure that gateline staff can actually correctly and properly check ticket validities. It would take a lot more training than they currently get, that's for sure. It'll never happen!

 

[Hadders]

I don't know, but an EC member of (agency?) staff on the bridge did a great job of making me miss two trains - yes, two - by refusing to let me travel in the evening peak with a valid ticket. So, I'd rather they left the gates open!

You were very unlucky to find those gates in operation! In my experience they're usually open.

 

[Murph]

I find that gateline staff either accept anything (the best example is Birmingham New St [BHM] accepting a bite card!) or reject valid tickets (as in jonmorris0844's example, or the many examples at London Paddington).

Imagine the training and equipment and staffing levels that would be required to ensure that gateline staff can actually correctly and properly check ticket validities. It would take a lot more training than they currently get, that's for sure. It'll never happen!

It seems to me that there's a relatively easy solution which could significantly improve things. A staff terminal/kiosk or PDA per gate line which can read tickets and properly interpret restrictions. Staff could scan the ticket and be told the validity for all departures over the next hour or 2. They would only need to do that if they are inclined to reject a ticket, not for those they think are ok. It really can't be that hard to build such a system, can it? Doesn't feel like it would be too expensive in the grand scheme of things, or need that much training.

 

[najaB]

It really can't be that hard to build such a system, can it? Doesn't feel like it would be too expensive in the grand scheme of things, or need that much training.

Development of that system will start the day that the TOC management accept that there is a problem.

 

[Saint66]

I actually encountered the ticket gates closed for the first time ever at Kings Cross in my experience at about 5:30pm on Friday... I'd just gotten off an EC service, and of course the gate wouldn't accept my Leeds to London terminals ticket, but thank fully there was a member of staff there who eventually let me through after a few seconds looking at it!

 

[yorkie]

It really can't be that hard to build such a system, can it?

To be fully accurate? It would be too difficult for the rail industry's suppliers to build. The likes of Atos still can't build a fully complaint booking system because they still can't accurately determine validity, and I suspect they never will. For an idea of some of the reasons why, consider attending one of our Fares Workshops

 

[Kite159]

It is almost useless to have the Kings Cross gates in existence, one of the three sets (front of platforms "exit" side, "entry" side at side of platforms, and the "suburban" gateline) is always seemingly open, if not they either let you through with anything (I flipped open the wrong part of my ticket wallet by mistake and showed them my railcard instead of my pass, they let me through! (and no I wasn't in uniform!)) or one wide gate seems to be open at the end anyway to let people through...

Yet the set of gates on the bridge always seem to be closed & manned. Rather pointless really.

Not to mention the slightly sneaky way if you alight from a train on P9 you can cut through to the 'mainline' side and walk down P8 to exit if you don't have a ticket.

 

[87 027]

It seems to me that there's a relatively easy solution which could significantly improve things. A staff terminal/kiosk or PDA per gate line which can read tickets and properly interpret restrictions. Staff could scan the ticket and be told the validity for all departures over the next hour or 2. They would only need to do that if they are inclined to reject a ticket, not for those they think are ok. It really can't be that hard to build such a system, can it? Doesn't feel like it would be too expensive in the grand scheme of things, or need that much training.

And what about complications like the Virgin Trains off-peak easement for railcards? That doesn't feature anywhere in the published restriction code for the ticket I will be using next Monday morning! Having read various tales of gateline attendants on here recently I will be pleasantly surprised to be let through without incident...

 

[Haywain]

It seems to me that there's a relatively easy solution which could significantly improve things. A staff terminal/kiosk or PDA per gate line which can read tickets and properly interpret restrictions. Staff could scan the ticket and be told the validity for all departures over the next hour or 2. They would only need to do that if they are inclined to reject a ticket, not for those they think are ok. It really can't be that hard to build such a system, can it? Doesn't feel like it would be too expensive in the grand scheme of things, or need that much training.

I think you make the mistake of assuming that there is sufficient information encoded on to the magnetic strip to allow this. This is not the case, and the information will only be available by looking up the tickets details, which will go back to relying on the human element.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Development of that system will start the day that the TOC management accept that there is a problem.

Given that I saw a Virgin Train in Euston on Thursday last week (1733 Liverpool Lime Street IIRC) which said this on the door screens:

THIS IS A PEAK TRAIN!!!!!

I'm assuming the industry don't think there is a problem.