Passengers forcing their way off stranded trains

[GB]

As I have always said, a "jobsworth" can only exist if one party is obeying the rules and one party is trying not to. Out of those two parties which one is the inconsiderate moron?

 

[CosherB]

As I have always said, a "jobsworth" can only exist if one party is obeying the rules and one party is trying not to. Out of those two parties which one is the inconsiderate moron?

That's a very enlightening post. Explains a lot, that does.

EM2 - avoid Ryanair!

 

[EM2]

EM2 - avoid Ryanair!

That's it? That's your answer? So what if I'd said in response to all these people stuck at Dartford, 'Don't get a train'?
You have rules, which are obviously there for a reason which doesn't make sense to us lay people, but do to you guys.
So does the railway.

 

[Captain Chaos]

That's a very enlightening post. Explains a lot, that does.

EM2 - avoid Ryanair!

But he is right though. As i have already said, 'jobsworth' is only used when your trying to do it by the book and the passenger doesn't want you to. If the people calling us 'jobsworths' had their way they would be allowed to travel 1st class for free, be allowed to travel on any service they wanted to at any time on the cheapest available Advance ticket and be allowed to buy child tickets as and when they want. Also they will be allowed to fare evade as and when they feel appropriate without giving their details upon request.

So who is in the right and who is in the wrong? Should we all be allowed to be called 'jobsworths' and be insulted for doing the right thing? No, of course we shouldn't. And to say otherwise is indefensible imo.

Oh and BTW, i am aware we have a thing called discretion. I do use it too. I like to weigh up all situations first before coming to a conclusion and course of action. But still, even if I do that and the response is not what they want to hear it still isn't right. Can't win.

 

[DarloRich]

That is what i was trying to say - inteligent people know the definition of jobsworth. However, people use it all the time in the wrong context.

None of the experts have yet come up with a template communications plan in the event of major delays. So i will ask again.

 

[moggie]

Flying an aeroplane, however, takes far more decisiveness and maturity than you (judging by your posts) could muster and it goes very quickly pear-shaped if you get it just a little wrong (gravity always wins). I wouldn't claim it's THE most demanding job (as you might) as I haven't done all the others. But it IS inherantly intolerent of fools, so I wouldn't persue a career there if I were you.

So what do you expect of your passengers if one of the jittery ones decides they want to get off at some random point in time after your plane has been on the stand for too long? No don't tell me, you'd hold the door open for them and let them jump down onto the flight apron while you're stood there singing 'have a nice day' - yes of course you would.

Well here's a piece of free advice being as you're so fond of handing it out to others - another thing that's pretty intolerent of fools is a moving 400 ton train, a moving set of point blades with a foot wedged in them and a live 650v conductor rail. But then again you obviously know better don't you!

 

[1V53]

This guy thrives on winding people up, don't feed the troll.

 

[moggie]

This guy thrives on winding people up, don't feed the troll.

Sorry - couldn't help myself. Won't do it again

 

[jopsuk]

somewhat related- I was on a train to Kings Cross last night when everything got stopped. Initially, we made an unscheduled stop at Stevenage, and the train was then moved forward to Knebworth. At both stations, the doors were unlocked to allow fresh air in (it was the ever-packed 1815 from Cambridge non-stop to Kings Cross, and formed of a 321). Eventually got going, and crawled past Alexandra Palace where there were cops and others on the up fast putting bits into plastic bags, and a little further along a crowd in hi-vis inspecting the front end of a 321- grim. But, anyway, the point was this- good approach to avoiding trapping people on the train for unspecified times, where at all possible- stop the trains at stations and unlock.

 

[jay jay]

Whilst clearly it is frustrating for passengers involved in such circumstances - unless a matter of life or death I think it's totally unacceptable for them to de-train themselves! Clearly, they cannot be stopped from doing so but only be offered suitable advice not to. They seem to have no idea of the possible consequences with regards to their own safety and the further inconvenience served up to the passengers who remain on the train - doing as they are told. That is the problem these days in general, people do not like doing as they are told and have an attitude to go with it too! Of course, it is also totally unacceptable for train crew not to keep passengers regularly informed regarding updates, possible movement and maybe evacuation if required. This ultimately leads to the frustration and subsequent actions from passengers.

 

[BestWestern]

Whilst clearly it is frustrating for passengers involved in such circumstances - unless a matter of life or death I think it's totally unacceptable for them to de-train themselves! Clearly, they cannot be stopped from doing so but only be offered suitable advice not to. They seem to have no idea of the possible consequences with regards to their own safety and the further inconvenience served up to the passengers who remain on the train - doing as they are told. That is the problem these days in general, people do not like doing as they are told and have an attitude to go with it too! Of course, it is also totally unacceptable for train crew not to keep passengers regularly informed regarding updates, possible movement and maybe evacuation if required. This ultimately leads to the frustration and subsequent actions from passengers.

Sadly though, after a while the flow of information will 'dry up' leaving the crew with only repetitions of previous advice, which will soon fail to quell things. I totally agree with your sentiments regarding the general 'b*llox to everyone else and the rules' attitude that is everywhere today, and unfortunately the only things that will reverse any acceptance of this type of action by reckless passengers are harsh action from the BTP, or when somebody gets killed being impatient. One or the other will have to happen soon, obviously the BTP solution would be preferable.

 

[EM2]

Sorry - couldn't help myself. Won't do it again

Doesn't look like you'll get the opportunity now anyway, he's banned

 

[Captain Chaos]

Doesn't look like you'll get the opportunity now anyway, he's banned

Again? Not really surprised. How many times has he been banned now anyway? He seems to be as bad as Striker for being banned. Is he after some sort of record?

 

[Flamingo]

I must admit, I've been trying VERY HARD to ignore him. My first thought when I saw him posting was "Oh hell, not this **** again".

Oh well, normal service can resume now, while he buggers off to annoy somebody else.

 

[island]

I disagree with the whole 'jobsworth' thing.

I think it would be more worthwhile if people tried to remember the etymology of the term, which is the expression "it's more than my job's worth to [insert task]". The implication is that the speaker feels his/her job would be at risk if he took that course of action, and is not willing to go outside the box.

 

[Old Timer]

I must admit, I've been trying VERY HARD to ignore him. My first thought when I saw him posting was "Oh hell, not this **** again".

Oh well, normal service can resume now, while he buggers off to annoy somebody else.

Hopefully the Moderators will give him regular updates just in case he is forced to re-activate his membership in another guise as his form of protest - having been "imprisoned" against his will, "detained", and ignored and made to "suffer" incalculable "torture".

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Can I remind forum members that we do have a forum member with 7 posts called Jobsworth, for what it is worth.

 

[LE Greys]

Just voted no. If the poll had said "six hours", then I might have said yes. By that time, the water would have run out and people might be getting ill.

 

[NightatLaira]

I bet if this poll were conducted on a representative sample of the travelling public (i.e. not a railway enthusiasts website) the results would be more like 90:10 in favour of forcibly exiting... and therein lies the problem.

Under the current system we're attempting to police bylaws that people simply won't adhere to. Certain people in this thread are beginning to remind me of King Canute saying he'll turn back the tide!

Passengers forcibly exiting trains is happening more and more often now, and it will carry on happening - so find a viable solution to it or get used to it! BTP aren't going arrest a whole train full of disgruntled escapees - they'll merely shepherd them away from lineside and smile sweetly - not wanting to cause any aggro. They know the court costs of trying to prosecute the 'ringleaders' of such an event will run into the millions if the defence start touting the human rights act..

Ugh! It's not an ideal situation - and I'm the last person who wants to see bylaws being broken or escapees injuring themselves - but we've got to find a pragmatic solution to all this. Sticking you head in the clouds by branding all 'escapees' as 'criminals' just doesn't cut it anymore.. We're 2011 not 1911, you can't treat people like animals anymore, even if it means letting them put their own lives at risk. (hence my earlier Titanic reference)

I like Oldtimer's suggestion about rolling back some of the HSE red tape and going back to the BR ways of sorting these things out... but that on its own, probably isn't enough...

 

[ralphchadkirk]

That's a good idea Nightatlaira! Just because people don't obey a law means it shouldn't be enforced. Perhaps we could apply the same logic to drug laws? Let's get rid of them - nobody follows them. What about the offences against the person act? Yeah, let's get rid of that - nobody obeys that as can be seen on a Saturday night in any city.

 

[Class 466]

That's a good idea Nightatlaira! Just because people don't obey a law means it shouldn't be enforced. Perhaps we could apply the same logic to drug laws? Let's get rid of them - nobody follows them. What about the offences against the person act? Yeah, let's get rid of that - nobody obeys that as can be seen on a Saturday night in any city.

Do you have to disagree with people all the time? Slight over exaggeration on your part!

 

[NSEFAN]

To be fair, he does have a point. Trespassing on the railway should be an offence because it causes chaos. As previously mentioned, whilst it is perfectly reasonable and understandable for pax to bail out, it only makes the problem worse for those who are patient.

That said, it shouldn't take hours for trains to get moving again. Ironically, some modern tech actually makes failures worse: trains with broken aircon and no opening windows can become like ovens, or computers can fail rendering the train useless. There needs to be some manual override which means that either things can recover faster, or at least the passengers don't have to sit and cook inside a boiling train!

Given the amount of publicity this sort of thing gets, I imagine that passengers bailing out will keep on happening until better recovery procedures are in place. Personally I also think it would help if they weren't so much in a hurry and expecting instant solutions to complex technical problems which they don't understand, but that's more a symptom of the "want it now" culture problem and isn't the fault of the railways.

 

[ralphchadkirk]

Do you have to disagree with people all the time? Slight over exaggeration on your part!

Not really, if we follow his logic of not enforcing laws because lots of people don't obey them, then that is where we will end up. It's his logic, not mine!

 

[jon0844]

That's a good idea Nightatlaira! Just because people don't obey a law means it shouldn't be enforced. Perhaps we could apply the same logic to drug laws? Let's get rid of them - nobody follows them. What about the offences against the person act? Yeah, let's get rid of that - nobody obeys that as can be seen on a Saturday night in any city.

Sadly, there are loads of laws the police can't be bothered to enforce or turn a blind eye to. Totally wrong, but the way it is. The argument is that it's not worthwhile enforcing them, and now the public seem to agree, but nobody realised that this tolerance has simply made more and more people break laws and create a general acceptance to pick and choose what laws to abide by, based on how serious they deem them to be (and the 'haven't you got anything better to do?' retorts, as if their crime isn't really a crime).

I do however agree that something needs to be done so we can reduce the numbers of people exiting a train by themselves, which forces the police to have to make the decision on whether to a) ignore it - thus approve of it or b) take action and be lambasted by the media.

 

[Nonsense]

Personally I also think it would help if they weren't so much in a hurry and expecting instant solutions to complex technical problems which they don't understand, but that's more a symptom of the "want it now" culture problem and isn't the fault of the railways.

What does want it now culture mean exactly? Perhaps if you used its full name. The "You already took my hard earned money for this so damned straight I want it now" culture the picture might become clearer. Its not unreasonable for the passenger to expect the railway to be run by skilled professionals that can resolve "Complex technical problems", is it?

There are rail workers on this board that seem happy to overlook the fact that the railway is there to serve the paying customer. Multiply that by the thousands of employees that don't post here, is it any wonder the public has such low regard or patience when things go wrong. From my own experiences on the railway, the vast majority of customer facing staff would seem to prefer it it if the passengers used some other means to reach their destination.

 

[Oswyntail]

I wonder if part of the problem comes from electric doors and aircon? In modern trains, we passengers are effectively held captive, and that might encourage a psychological imperative to "escape". On slammers with proper opening windows we knew we could manage our environment, so were more relaxed.

 

[Captain Chaos]

What does want it now culture mean exactly? Perhaps if you used its full name. The "You already took my hard earned money for this so damned straight I want it now" culture the picture might become clearer. Its not unreasonable for the passenger to expect the railway to be run by skilled professionals that can resolve "Complex technical problems", is it?

There are rail workers on this board that seem happy to overlook the fact that the railway is there to serve the paying customer. Multiply that by the thousands of employees that don't post here, is it any wonder the public has such low regard or patience when things go wrong. From my own experiences on the railway, the vast majority of customer facing staff would seem to prefer it it if the passengers used some other means to reach their destination.

I think the problem is that even when the problem is very complex to sort out there is an expectation that the problem will be sorted instantly with a wave of a magic wand and that nothing else will quite do. People are willing to accept that a problem may be complex but are unwilling to accept that it will take time to sort out. The problem in society these days is that we have so many things that now make things quicker, easier, faster etc that when a serious problem does arise an instant solution is expected.

Also to use a very small number of people's opinions on here and then use it as a basis of the rest of the railway's opinion of passengers is stupid if you ask me. Saying that the vast majority of staff give you poor service and make you feel unwelcome suggests to me you haven't travelled by train much. Don't tar everyone with the same brush. The vast majority of staff do care. But when situations go very wrong and out of control it can be rather difficult to reliably convey that.

 

[Flamingo]

I was looking at a programme the other night on TV, and it had film of passengers detraining themselves. It appeared to be an overcast day, and although I couldn't make out what type of train it was, there appeared to be windows open all along the side. One of the passengers being interviewed said that there were frequent announcements, but that at 8 months pregnant, she felt it would be in her better interests to drop down from a train to the basalt and walk along the track.

Reading this thread, and some of the posts (and dealing with the Great British Public), I think that this desire to de-train is nothing more than an inability and unwillingness to follow instructions as a large number of people are displaying the attitude "I'm too important, they can't possibly apply to me".

Society in general is more aware of it's rights and refuses to recognise it's responsibilities. I think that this is just another symptom of this.

I would like to know if the "rugged individualists" posting on this would take a personal injury claim against a TOC if they injured themselves whilst detraining against instructions of the train-crew. I'm sure the answer is yes, as this is their "right" to do so.

 

[michael769]

I would like to know if the "rugged individualists" posting on this would take a personal injury claim against a TOC if they injured themselves whilst detraining against instructions of the train-crew. I'm sure the answer is yes, as this is their "right" to do so.

Personally I would not de-train (just because I can empathise with people who do and believe that the industry needs to do more to prevent it does not mean I'd be happy to put myself at that level of supidity). But if I did then as in other walks of life, if I fell and hurt myself, I would take it as a reminder to be more careful and watch where I was putting my feet, and try to learn from it.

While it would be their right to try to sue (as it is our right to try to sue anyone), I would expect the courts to laugh at them even as they deny their action. Fortunately despite what the Daily Wail and the "H&S" brigades would have us believe the UK courts still expect people to take a degree of care and responsibility for their own well being.

Unfortunately my fear is that the NR or the ToC might roll over and offer them an out of court settlement to avoid the hassle of a court case - as often seems to happen to low to moderate value frivolous claims.

 

[Nonsense]

I think the problem is that even when the problem is very complex to sort out there is an expectation that the problem will be sorted instantly with a wave of a magic wand and that nothing else will quite do. People are willing to accept that a problem may be complex but are unwilling to accept that it will take time to sort out. The problem in society these days is that we have so many things that now make things quicker, easier, faster etc that when a serious problem does arise an instant solution is expected.

You're right. An instant solution is expected, or at least an instant diagnosis and reliable estimate of the resolution timescale, and if that timescale is excessive, then remedial steps taken to alleviate any other issues.

The train not moving isn't the only problem, and the interior conditions of the train can't be ignored because of the impediment to the original problem. If it were a bus that had broken down on the highway, everyone would sit on the grass verge without hesitation, but I doubt anyone would have stopped all other traffic on the road. The biggest issue here being the gap between the track and the passenger compartment, but I fail to see how the embankment on a railway, with the power off and all other traffic stopped, is any more dangerous than a verge on a main road with other vehicles passing closely at anything between 50-90 mph.

Also to use a very small number of people's opinions on here and then use it as a basis of the rest of the railway's opinion of passengers is stupid if you ask me. Saying that the vast majority of staff give you poor service and make you feel unwelcome suggests to me you haven't travelled by train much. Don't tar everyone with the same brush. The vast majority of staff do care. But when situations go very wrong and out of control it can be rather difficult to reliably convey that.

It might be mis-representative to use the small sample here but its not stupid. The impression given is the impression given. And I don't travel by rail much anymore because its largely inconvenient for me, but when I have travelled, I usually get the one miserable guard or canceled train or blocked toilet or whatever it is that puts me off for another year or so.