Paying for Railway Volunteers

[455driver]

Volunteering is a hobby, find another hobby which doesn't cost you any time or money!

 

[341o2]

I doubt whether most (if not all) heritage lines could survive without volunteers, membership, selling refreshments, donations etc etc,

When I did my stitnt as a volunteer guard, a black/dark grey jacket and trousers with black formal shoes sufficed

My experience has been of the Tallyllyn, many local guest houses and a campsite offered a discount for TRPS members

 

[Jonfun]

I'd be surprised if they weren't paid!

Many grounds now employ security / events companies to steward their matches, so many of the stewards have no direct interest in the match.

I used to steward at Rodney Parade, Newport (Newport RFC / Newport Gwent Dragons / Newport County FC), where the stewarding is still "in house", but many of the other major rugby grounds that I go to aren't.

When I was stewarding, I was paid.

I'm not sure you've quite grasped the point I was making.

 

[AnonymousUser1]

Not trying to be flippant but do you know what volunteering actually is? People volunteer for all sorts of things-charity, arts/theatre/music groups, youth groups etc and don't get expenses paid, it's called volunteering rather than working.

paying expenses to 'volunteers as staff / service providers is fairly common ' ...

it can be quite lucrative for people volunteering with youth groups when you look at the overall 'package' ... ( depending on how strictly controlled the use of IT equipment/ phones etc is , and the policy with regard to subsistence on residential activities and the control over cash and carry cards etc ... )

 

[Bletchleyite]

As a volunteer for a charity (Scouting) I would look most unkindly on anyone who abused it in that manner.

 

[AnonymousUser1]

Volunteering is a hobby, find another hobby which doesn't cost you any time or money!

ah that old chestnut ...

better hope you never need mountain rescue or a lifeboat and if you have a life threatening medical emergency that a paid NHS or contractor crew is close enough to ...

make sure to express your disatisfaction if a Special Constable attends as part of a Police response and ask for a 'real copper' , but don;t forget to remind the 'real copper' you pay his wages ...

better hope you never need the fire and rescue service ina rural area as well, as although retained are paid per call , without them giving up their free time to train and the support of their employers to release them during the working day ...
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

As a volunteer for a charity (Scouting) I would look most unkindly on anyone who abused it in that manner.

but you might look on it unkindly but have little power to do anything ...

especially with regard to mileage / subsistence and un proven 'misuse' of cash and carry cards etc
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I work for a charity and our organisation do pay travel expenses for volunteers to get from home to their place of volunteering. I always tell mine that this is available but that claiming expenses is not mandatory and it's up to them whether they claim or not. We also feed our volunteers!!

claim and re donate a similar sum from earned income via gift aid actually earns the charity money !
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

As previously stated if you volunteer then you expect to pay your own way.

Think of it in another context, Would you expect Man Utd to pay its fans to attend their games?
If they did then I might even consider breaking the habit of a lifetime and go to a match.

fans attending a match are customers

volunteers working on footplates, as guards / stewards, in the ticket office , in the sheds or P-way/ S+T and even in the tea shop are people rpoviding a service to the organisation

if you can;t make that distinction perhaps you should consider refraining from commenting on the topic.

 

[DaleCooper]

ah that old chestnut ...

better hope you never need mountain rescue or a lifeboat and if you have a life threatening medical emergency that a paid NHS or contractor crew is close enough to ...

make sure to express your disatisfaction if a Special Constable attends as part of a Police response and ask for a 'real copper' , but don;t forget to remind the 'real copper' you pay his wages ...

better hope you never need the fire and rescue service ina rural area as well, as although retained are paid per call , without them giving up their free time to train and the support of their employers to release them during the working day ...
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


but you might look on it unkindly but have little power to do anything ...

especially with regard to mileage / subsistence and un proven 'misuse' of cash and carry cards etc
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


claim and re donate a similar sum from earned income via gift aid actually earns the charity money !
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


fans attending a match are customers

volunteers working on footplates, as guards / stewards, in the ticket office , in the sheds or P-way/ S+T and even in the tea shop are people rpoviding a service to the organisation

if you can;t make that distinction perhaps you should consider refraining from commenting on the topic.

It's a bit silly, if not downright insulting, to compare the emergency services with preserved railways.

 

[dakta]

It's a long time since I volunteered at the railway (just circumstances at my end, I'd go back in a heartbeat if I could), but the thought of being paid costs was something that never occured to me.

My 2p on the subject is that I'm not obliged to go do something I enjoy in my free time, and I won't be harassed if I don't. But for the price of a pint or two, I can.


Furthermore, you might get to learn to weld or something, or even get on the operating side eventually.

You can get something out of it, but if you're wanting the coin you put in back out you're barking up the wrong tree with volunteering IMO.

My only beef with volunteering is that if you don't have a lot of skills, breaking in can be very difficult, even though a lot of websites will proclaim to help get you up to speed with things. This I'm sure will depend on group to group, I'm a little bit to the introvert side which i'm sure doesn't help.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

I suppose you could look at this in a business like manner.

If enough people are turning up, completely free of charge, to do all the necessary tasks, why offer any kind of payment / incentive? There is a certain amount of money available, if you pay volunteers, the money isn't available for something else.

If you find you are short staffed in one particular area then an incentive can be offered for people volunteering for that task. For example, 'every' young lad wants to be a 'steam engine driver' but not many want to be the toilet cleaner! So, potentially one could receive freebies / expenses and not another. Everyone has their price. It is a slippery slope though.

In the old, big, railway, you worked your way up the grades and it was a long time before you became a top link driver.

 

[Bevan Price]

As previously stated if you volunteer then you expect to pay your own way.

Think of it in another context, Would you expect Man Utd to pay its fans to attend their games?

I cannot be bought - not even money would induce me to go to certain football grounds.

Most large football clubs could afford to give free entry to fans, but they prefer to spend TV money on overpaid prima donnas who receive a fortune every week - even if they play rubbish football.

 

[scotsman]

I used to be a director of a charity, I was entitled (practically encouraged) by the chief exec to claim expenses on travel to meetings/engagements. Occasionally food if it was a long meeting. The point of expenses - where given - is that noone is left out of pocket as a result of their participation. Due to the nature of the charity, this was a very important principle to us, and the expenses bill was never particularly high - only a few people a month actually needed reimbursed.

Obviously, in somewhere like a heritage railway this is not going to happen - it's not sustainable.

 

[Simon11]

I volunteer in Scouting, and while it is to some extent down to local discretion, adult uniforms are generally paid for, while on camps/trips all adult costs (travel, camp fees and meals) are usually covered, though it is fairly usual that if adults want to take part in actual activities that have a direct cost that they contribute. Normally people volunteer locally, so regular travel expenses are not necessary, but for the smaller number of national volunteers who regularly travel to meetings at national campsites (e.g. Gilwell Park near London) standard class expenses are normally paid.

As a Scout leader myself, we have the exact same policy.

For our regular nights, expenses are only paid if you have brought something for an activity.

However for camps, they are free to all leaders and travel expenses are provided. Without leaders giving up their weekdays (and sometimes weekdays), there wouldn't be any camps and no one to transport gear.

 

[cin88]

My only beef with volunteering is that if you don't have a lot of skills, breaking in can be very difficult, even though a lot of websites will proclaim to help get you up to speed with things. This I'm sure will depend on group to group, I'm a little bit to the introvert side which i'm sure doesn't help.

In my experience it's because people are reluctant to teach you something in case you get it wrong and damage a loco. It's less of an issue once you've gained the trust of a few of the senior volunteers though.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

If you've got the admin staff (voluntary) to handle it, having them claim and then donate back will net you Gift Aid on top...free money!

Really?
See Charity Commissioners v. Cup Trust / Mountstar / Romangate / Jenner / Harry.

The CC have become much more cautious in approving anything for Gift Aid that looks remotely like a windmill.

I'm a Trustee of a few charities, manage a volunteering programme for one of them, and also do some voluntary work myself. I wouldn't consider it appropriate for travel costs to be payable for volunteers of any of them, nor for myself.

But I don't hesitate to claim travel expenses for travel as a Director of non-charitable bodies, nor when attending important meetings in a professional capacity for a Charity.

Of the people who participate in the voluntary work I'm involved with, some of it is safety critical and requires training, responsibility for others, and a vigilant attention to detail. Some of them have to be vetted for their suitability (DBS aka CRB checks). Some of the volunteers are professionals, who take time off work to 'get their hands dirty' doing something practical.

But volunteering is voluntary - their time is given. Their skills are given, their training is given, their responsibility for others is given, their Criminal Record is given, and even their parking charges is given.

As are mine.

 

[dakta]

In my experience it's because people are reluctant to teach you something in case you get it wrong and damage a loco. It's less of an issue once you've gained the trust of a few of the senior volunteers though.

I'm not sure if that's more a lack of confidence in the volunteer, or in the training but both seem plausible to me!

Obviously we're dealing with high value machines in both money and sentimental value, and mistakes are something to be avoided, to which I can absolutely see where you're coming from.

I don't want to derail (no pun intended) the thread but the best kind of training, in my experience, is not just in a classroom but in a practical environment alongside the professionals (and I'm not talking salaries here, just people with good experience). Shadowing someone experienced, or being shadowed by someone experience is as close to teaching gold as you can get, and it's not wasteful of anyones time if it gets someone skilled. I'm veering a bit off topic, and maybe some places do do something like this, but why not have a bit of a formalised training programme for volunteers? Not in the qualification sense, but a way to get signed off as competent for certain jobs, and you could perhaps put yourself on a list for training for certain things when someone competent next tackles the job to take you through. Or would that be an insurance nightmare haha.

If you wanted to work with heavy diesel engines lets say, or as a mechanical engineer - getting experience is something you've got to do and what better place potentially than a heritage railway? Beneifts to all. But if nobody'l help you do anything with your time spent there then it does become a bit wasted

This isn't an attempt to paint a negative picture of heritage railways or the management of volunteers, its the distance and my time availability which kills it for me (id love to pick up the spanners again) but people are a powerful resource, and if you need volunteers and you've got volunteers, there's got to be something said for investing in their enthusiasm, even if not in a financial sense.

Anyway don't want to drag the thread off topic so...yeah

 

[Bletchleyite]

Really?

See Charity Commissioners v. Cup Trust / Mountstar / Romangate / Jenner / Harry.

As I understand it the Scout Association has sought legal advice on the matter. This is for cases where out of pocket expenses are completely valid but are donated back because the individual chose not to claim them (others may similarly claim them but keep them).

I just had a look at the first two of those cases and they appear to be far more involved money-go-round schemes than claiming simple out of pocket expenses (such as, for example, the cost of fuel for the minibus for the trip) that are due under the organisation's expenses policy and donating them back.

 

[ralphchadkirk]

We have a few volunteering organisations at work, volunteers can claim travel expenses and other expenses because we don't want finance to be a barrier to volunteering. People volunteer their time, not their money.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

In essence:

Some organisations offer nothing - so you pay all costs incurred in volunteering.

Some pay something, such as travel expenses - so you are not out of pocket but your labour is free.

Some offer incentives, effectively in lieu of paying for your labour (e.g. free food from a volunteer café).

I suppose you have to look at the costs of volunteering and weigh them up against the benefits received. Then either sign up on those terms or look for something else. I have volunteered at a heritage railway in the past and would not have thought of claiming anything. It was my hobby, I got enjoyment out of it, it cost me a bit of money. Just like going to the pub or for a walk in the countryside. I would however expect tools to be provided though. Not many loco engineers are going to bring a lathe with them, nor engine drivers / firemen their own coal (although I suspect some do as part of their volunteering).

I'm with 455 driver in the very first post on this topic.

 

[AnonymousUser1]

It's a bit silly, if not downright insulting, to compare the emergency services with preserved railways.

is it ?

i've heard the same arguments against expenses etc used in regard of the special constabulary and St John /Red Cross / Community responder.


Mountain rescue pulls from an almost entirely 'enthusiast' pool of people due to the entry standards for lay members ( they can be a little more flexible for Health Professionals apparently but there is still expectation of some degree of experience 'on the hill' )
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

We have a few volunteering organisations at work, volunteers can claim travel expenses and other expenses because we don't want finance to be a barrier to volunteering. People volunteer their time, not their money.

exactly

if people claim expenses the organisation has a true understanding of the costs of the operation , if volunteers who feel able to ask for their expenses to be sent to a designated fund or donate an equivalent sum back (and claim gift aid if appropriate) the costs are understood better and the money situation is no worse .

 

[Whistler40145]

The reason individuals volunteer is to do it for nothing. I wouldn't even expect a society or preserved railway to pay my travel expenses.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The reason individuals volunteer is to do it for nothing

I volunteer my time (to Scouting). I don't see that that should include also having to volunteer the contents of my bank account. Though I accept that preserved railways generally have volunteers from further away so I can see why they don't offer travel expenses - in Scouting as I said upthread most people volunteer very locally to home.

 

[Whistler40145]

I'm a member of the Class Forty Preservation Society on the East Lancashire Railway, but that only requires me to pay for the rail fare from Blackpool to Bolton and then the bus fare.

 

[fireftrm]

Most, if not all, heritage railways have free accommodation for volunteers, offer free travel and discounts on food and beverages. The ID cards offer discounts on other railways (not all though) as well. They are not profit making operations, any money they make is used to preserve and improve their locomotives, stock and premises. If they had to pay expenses for volunteers to travel there then they could not do so, so they would simply have to stop doing a lot of what they do and only accept local volunteers. Simples.

 

[AnonymousUser1]

The reason individuals volunteer is to do it for nothing. I wouldn't even expect a society or preserved railway to pay my travel expenses.

thus making volunteering something only those with sufficient disposable income can do unless they are being supporterd by another charity or mandated as part of community payback or an employability scheme ?

 

[cin88]

thus making volunteering something only those with sufficient disposable income can do unless they are being supporterd by another charity or mandated as part of community payback or an employability scheme ?

I work for minimum wage and only recently cut my availability for volunteering at the ELR down because of time constraints, money doesn't come into it as a limitation for me.

 

[AnonymousUser1]

I work for minimum wage and only recently cut my availability for volunteering at the ELR down because of time constraints, money doesn't come into it as a limitation for me.

money can be a significant issue, even when expenses are paid ... or again perhaps i'm just talking rubbish despite 20 years of experience in service based volunteering including 10 + years in management roles as a volunteer

 

[TonyBoy]

I think that heritage railways not paying for volunteers the expenses such as travel to get to there, meals and uniforms is really disgusting:-x,

Why?

I volunteer about twice a month on the GWR and guess what - I enjoy it. It is not a job nor is it something I need to be paid for. I guess a contribution towards uniforms might be nice but travel..............

 

[scotsman]

The ideal is that no-one should be left out of pocket as a result of their volunteering. It depends on the interpretation of this, but it depends what expenditure is necessary as a result of volunteering: if a uniform must be purchased, then it wouldn't be unreasonable for the uniform to be covered.

However, travel is very different. If you're a young person it's a serious issue, but the majority of voluntary organisations are dominated by older people and retirees - hence, money is less of an object to these people.

Young people are frequently slated as not contributing to society. It's hard when you're under 16 (where prisoners are entitled to more for any work they do) and want to make a difference - you have to use your savings (not a good move), bother friends and parents for lifts (not always possible, especially those with low income backgrounds), or try and work to raise money (in which case they probably don't have time for volunteering).

Hence, expenses are a very reasonable request in some circumstances and none in others.

 

[Mvann]

The railway I was last at only paid for travel to get to the railway was if any commercial work came up, ie filming. But in the case of filming contracts, it was the film companies that would pay out and not the charity. Most railways would pay expenses if I had to go from my signing on point to either another part of the railway or to take/pick up items from suppliers. I can't see why meals should be paid for as you'd have to buy food wether you were volunteering or not. Getting a discount in the railway buffet is a reasonable expectation though.

 

[Bushy]

The Charities Aid Foundation Giving Index uses three measures of giving:

• helping (giving help to) strangers
• volunteering (giving) time
• donating (giving) money

Perhaps charities need be clear what they expect of their givers, whatever the the primary form of giving is, does it require other forms, e.g. giving your time also involves giving money in the form of meeting your own expenses.

Perhaps another way to think about it would be that travel to the base at which you volunteer is treated like commuting to work, cost (and time) is not reimbursed. If on the other hand you were involved in a work party at a location remote from the base, the travel should be reimbursed. This is equitable to the scouting situation where expenses are not paid for normal meetings but are for going to camp at a location away from the normal venue.