cumfy as I see it, you walked past an open ticket office and a TVM and boarded a train in a penalty fare area and you got a penalty fare. Surprised much?
Schadenfreude much? :roll:
cumfy as I see it, you walked past an open ticket office and a TVM and boarded a train in a penalty fare area and you got a penalty fare. Surprised much?
Schadenfreude much? :roll:
As I posted, I have empathy for the financial penalty.Schadenfreude much? :roll:
If you were so late that you had to take a train without buying a ticket first, a penalty fare seems like a perfectly fair price to pay. Why complain? Not being able to wait for a later train isn't the fault of the railway.
Missing my point, some operators are happy to sell you the cheapest fair 99% of the time, at the 1% of the time it's unfair to pull out the "you need a ticket to ride bylaw", and indeed if you are familiar with buying tickets on trains with one operator, why is that fair to be then punished when doing the same on another operator.
Also, there may not be another train - most of the UK away from the main lines and London don't have a multiple train per hour service.
So if I had let the RP pass as he was in fact doing would I not have been able to buy a ticket from the guard ?
Oh and what happens if a passenger steadfastly claims they got on at the first non-PF station prior to their station ?
I just caught the 1304 from Bradford on Avon to Bristol which was running about 3 minutes late.
2 carriages, sat down straightaway halfway down first carriage and immediately saw train staff coming down the carriage he seemed to be walking past but I was geting my wallet out and managed to catch his attention and asked for a cheap day return to Oldfield Park, about 15 seconds after the train had set off from BOA.
He spoke vey quietly and seemed to say somethng about a penalty fare.
I had to clarify what he was saying and really took 2-3 attempts to clarify he was charging me a penalty fare.
Baically he didnt dispute that I was running late and purchasing a ticket at the first opportunity.
Tough. 20 quid thanks.
Is it really supposed to work like this ?
Whats the point of the stuff on nationalrail.co.uk saying buying on train at 1st opportunity is ok ?
I am not aware of a page on nationalrail.co.uk which says you may buy on the train if there are ticketing facilities at your starting station, so perhaps you could link that for us?
Since the ticket office was open, it was possible for you to purchase a ticket. The situation that your quoted text describes is when there is no open ticket office or working TVM/PERTIS machine.I was unable to purchase a ticket and catch the train.
If you are unable to purchase a Permit to Travel, you should obtain a ticket from the Conductor on the train or at the first opportunity.
[/B]
You would have been able to purchase a ticket and catch the train if you had turned up at the station on time, which isn't the railway's fault.I provided a link earlier in the thread the relevant part is:
How do I avoid a Penalty Fare?
To avoid paying a Penalty Fare, you must purchase a valid ticket to your destination for the class of travel you wish to use before starting your journey.
If you are unable to do so, you must buy a Permit to Travel from the machines that are provided at most stations. This permit must be upgraded to a valid ticket at the first opportunity.
If you are unable to purchase a Permit to Travel, you should obtain a ticket from the Conductor on the train or at the first opportunity.
The keyword being unable of course.
I was unable to purchase a ticket and catch the train.
If that were the case then the correct course of action would have been for him to make a report to the Great Western prosecutions department, not issue a Penalty fare.The direct inference is that the RP believed I was in fact not going to pay but for his intercession.
I was unable to purchase a ticket and catch the train.
On another note, I was told by the RP that "there are notices all over the station". Well there arent and it would be a good idea if there were!
This is hardly definitive as things may have changed since the Street View car was in that direction, but if you zoom in this Google Street View image the poster to the right of the entrance looks amazingly similar to this penalty fare warning poster:On another note, I was told by the RP that "there are notices all over the station". Well there arent and it would be a good idea if there were!
Oh and what happens if a passenger steadfastly claims they got on at the first non-PF station prior to their station ?
Agreed. I believe Northern are having similar issues with their "fixed penalty" notices. Consistency in enforcement might help avoid confusion for the innocent passenger and also remove potential excuse from someone trying it on.Flamingo said:Their only real complaint is that on previous occasions when they and others should have been issued a PF this has not happened.
Which I might agree with, except for the word 'must' in the first sentence. There aren't many rules/regulations that I know of that say you must do something unless you don't want to or don't have time to. Also, the third paragraph says you can buy on the train only if unable to purchase a permit to travel.If you were not aware of the rules and regulations you could interpret the last part of Cumfy's link in this way; you arrive late at the station therefore do not have an time (opportunity which is not defined as to its exact meaning) to buy a ticket from the ticket office or machine so you opt to buy from the conductor as the information page seems to imply is possible.
Perhaps, can you suggest a wording that wouldn't be possible to be misconstrued?We all know this is not the correct interpretation but it is one. Of course the link is only to an information page and not to the law which would override the information page. Perhaps the page is poorly worded.
Perhaps, can you suggest a wording that wouldn't be possible to be misconstrued?
Interestingly, that's almost the same as what it says on the posters."If ticket issuing facilities are available at the station at the time of boarding, then you must purchase a ticket before boarding the train. If no ticket issuing facilities are available at the station but a Permit to Travel machine is available, then you must purchase a Permit to Travel before boarding the train. Anyone failing to do so when facilities are available will be liable to pay a Penalty Fare. Anyone failing to do so with intent to avoid payment may be subject to prosecution. "
If you were not aware of the rules and regulations you could interpret the last part of Cumfy's link in this way; you arrive late at the station therefore do not have an time (opportunity which is not defined as to its exact meaning) to buy a ticket from the ticket office or machine so you opt to buy from the conductor as the information page seems to imply is possible. We all know this is not the correct interpretation but it is one. Of course the link is only to an information page and not to the law which would override the information page. Perhaps the page is poorly worded.
If it said "DON'T EVEN THINK ABOUT TRAVELLING WITHOUT BUYING A TICKET FIRST!!!" in yellow letters on a black background on a 20ftx10ft billboard outside every station entrance people wouldNo matter how it's worded if someone is determined to misintepret it they will find a way.
How about a massive headline saying "no ticket, no travel!"
It should probably also mention that you need to leave enough time to queue for a ticket (at least five minutes.)
If it said "DON'T EVEN THINK ABOUT TRAVELLING WITHOUT BUYING A TICKET FIRST!!!" in yellow letters on a black background on a 20ftx10ft billboard outside every station entrance people would
a. claim they did not notice it
and/or
b. think "It couldn't possibly apply to me"
I was told by the RP that "there are notices all over the station". Well there arent and it would be a good idea if there were!
This is hardly definitive as things may have changed since the Street View car was in that direction, but if you zoom in this Google Street View image the poster to the right of the entrance looks amazingly similar to this penalty fare warning poster::