Railstaff - Patience now at a premium

[Intermodal]

I'd just like to say that part of the reason I read this forum is because of the rail staff that post here - I find their posts very informative and often helpful. I'm sorry you feel that people are trying to persecute you on there - I certainly am not.

It would be a shame to lose the rail staff presence on this forum, so maybe we need to buck up our ideas a bit as enthusiasts.

 

[O L Leigh]

Mods: I don't particularly want to have to report posts or members. There are people I argue with one day and agree with the next, so it seems wrong to start reporting them. Likewise, I don't believe they infringe the forum rules.

It is, as Flamingo describes, the constant drip, drip, drip of criticism and the need to endlessly re-post the same information over and over again in order to try and explain things to people unwilling to listen that has finally ground me down. Please don't tell me that you're unaware of this trend because it's been gathering momentum for the past 12 months or more.

And nor is it about having a pat on the back. 99% of passengers probably don't even give a second thought about the driver, and that's fine by me.

O L Leigh

 

[455driver]

Have a read at this thread-
http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=49448

The OP has assumed that the guard was aiming his comment at the bloke with the bags, the OP has assumed that the guard does not know the bloke if indeed the comment was aimed at him in the first place, The OP has taken it upon himself to air this alleged incident on a public forum (with the date/ station and times clearly displayed so management can get involved whether a complaint is made or not) with the possibility that he MAY report this incident (to which he was not directly involved) to the TOC concerned.

At the bottom he asks for comments, well yes I have got several but I am too polite to post them!

 

[Flamingo]

Have a read at this thread-
http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=49448

The OP has assumed that the guard was aiming his comment at the bloke with the bags, the OP has assumed that the guard does not know the bloke if indeed the comment was aimed at him in the first place, The OP has taken it upon himself to air this alleged incident on a public forum (with the date/ station and times clearly displayed so management can get involved whether a complaint is made or not) with the possibility that he MAY report this incident (to which he was not directly involved) to the TOC concerned.

At the bottom he asks for comments, well yes I have got several but I am too polite to post them!

And then the rent-a-mob jump on the thread to go "harumph, disgraceful, but typical, what else do you expect"
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Anyway, having gone away, done some more packing and come back, just to put some final thoughts (as this one may run and run, come daylight)

I like this forum. I think
a. it hits a good balance,
b. the moderation is good and fair, (especially considering some of the difficulties they are under with laws that cover these things)
c. there is a good mix of experience from within and outside the rail industry, bringing lots of things to the party.

Everybody in life has an agenda, the Railforum site is quite unique in that I can't figure out what the agenda is, apart from the stated one. I prefer that to other forums (both rail and non-rail) that have cabals, and hidden areas, and distinctly political views.

On balance, before the wagons get circled (and also before some of the individuals who have been stirring it go on their way pleased with the mischief they have been making), I am definitely still happy to be a member and contribute to the forum.

One thing that I would suggest, is that an avatar/tag could be considered by the Mods as an alternative to banning / option for infractions. I belong to one forum where posters can be nominated for an "O2 Thief" tag, and they are therefore flagged up as a troll, It means that other posters can give due weight and credence to their postings. This may be an idea for here.

 

[deltic1989]

Mods: I don't particularly want to have to report posts or members. There are people I argue with one day and agree with the next, so it seems wrong to start reporting them. Likewise, I don't believe they infringe the forum rules.

It is, as Flamingo describes, the constant drip, drip, drip of criticism and the need to endlessly re-post the same information over and over again in order to try and explain things to people unwilling to listen that has finally ground me down. Please don't tell me that you're unaware of this trend because it's been gathering momentum for the past 12 months or more.

And nor is it about having a pat on the back. 99% of passengers probably don't even give a second thought about the driver, and that's fine by me.

O L Leigh

Your last paragraph there makes a good point, 99% of people wouldn't dream of getting off. a bus without thanking the driver. I.suppose one could argue that a bus driver is visable so to speak whereas a train driver is in an enclosed cab but that's not the point the service they provide is no less valuable. For me I always make an effort to thank the driver when i leave a train even if its a frindly wave or nod as i pass the cab window. I've seen others do it too. Sadly it seems that the days where drivers command respect had gone and its sad to see it. On the flip side if a member of staff does mess up then its much better to report it through the proper channels than shout about it on an internet forum but in a culture where free speach is regularly taken for granted it will happen

 

[ralphchadkirk]

Perhaps a little understanding on both sides would help. There will always be people who don't like the way railways are being run, who consider the staff to be jobsworth nazis, and who want to film every conversation with you. Such is life. It's by no means correct, but sadly people will always think that. Passengers need to realise that rail staff are human and make mistakes. A little less of the posting the exact details of incidents as well to make life easier for management.

 

[NLC1072]

Relating this thread to the working environment, I get more compliments forms returned than complaints and this is true of most of my colleagues(yes not all). But you will always get that one passenger that is set out on "revenge" because they are a complete and utter d!ck, or who are well versed in the art of no fee compensation... Then there will be that one railway worker that has just gotten fed up of being treated as if all of the TOCs problems are their own and just give the job description for service.
Just saying there are good/excellent railway workers and mediocre railway workers (can't really say bad as they would of been dismissed ages ago!).
There are good passengers and bad passengers, just seems that the bad ones can shout louder in today's society, so we hear more from them.
I bet there are many bad passengers/negative posters that at the drop of a hat would take up a position within a TOC, but simply are only bad posters because they get turned down for jobs with the TOCs. Quite simply, if you get turned down, there is a reason for that!

As a ticket office clerk, somewhere in ticket office land - rude passenger = blind pulled down. Simple. Complaints are fine, opinion is fine, but just as long as they are using fair language and not personally insulting/verbally absuing me, even if they feel they have a reason too i.e. after long delays. After all all I am doing is earning a living.

Polite passenger = kind and welcoming service, and I'll offer everything at my disposal I even try to remember every regulars regular tickets and or railcards.

Sticking with ATOC rules to the fairest degree.

All in all sometimes it is a stand off between a bad passenger who will invoke a job description service (not bad, just minimal) from a clerk and will only stoke the fire...

Sorry! Rant over

 

[Flamingo]

Perhaps a little understanding on both sides would help. There will always be people who don't like the way railways are being run, who consider the staff to be jobsworth nazis, and who want to film every conversation with you. Such is life. It's by no means correct, but sadly people will always think that.

Their are Ralph. But after a day of dealing with them at work, (it might only be one out of a train of 400, but will still ruin your day), to have the same attitudes thrust in your face on here (again, not the majority but a vocal minority) does make one think "Why bother" both about coming onto the forum, and about the interaction with the other 99% of passenger, who do end up mentally getting tarred with the same brush.

We constantly get told that "all railway workers get tarred with the same brush" whenever anything "bad" happens. The reverse happens as well. If I am subject to unacceptable behavior from a passenger, it tends to colour the next interaction, regardless of how much one takes a deep breath and fixes the smile on one's face. After this happens a few times on a train, the temptation to say "F** the lot of you, whatever I do they'll complain anyway" and go read a paper is quite large.

There are certain posters who constantly bemoan the lack of "respect" that rail staff display on here to customers (Nonsense is one - quite an apt username, I can't help thinking). Sometimes, and some days, that respect has to be earned by the passengers.

 

[ralphchadkirk]

I quite agree Flamingo. It is a two way street, treat staff with respect, passengers get treated with respect. Cause and effect.

I for one would probably not remain a member if the core of staff on this forum left. I really hope it doesn't come to that though, as I do like this place.

 

[Mike395]

(Please note the below is 100% personal opinion)

I can understand the feelings of the staff on here to an extent to be honest

I think that, like the world we live in, this forum does have a few people who rub people up the wrong way, deliberately or otherwise - sadly I think this is a factor on any internet community, although I too have noticed a rise in incidents lately.

As a relatively new moderator, I've seen this debate grow as a normal user and O L Leigh is right for the most part in my view that there isn't a lot we as mods can do to help this situation - at the end of the day, I think the forum community as a whole needs to have the same mindset on not being overly anti-staff (I'm not talking in a ticketing sense here, more general attitude) - of course healthy debate is good, but I think recently the line has been crossed.

Just my view on the situation

(As an aside, I think it would be tragic for the forum if the rail staff core of this forum left, so I'd hope that anyone reading this takes on board what's being said )

 

[stut]

So many times I've patiently gone round and round explaining the same thing over and over again, and it's a thankless task because it makes not one iota of difference.

I wouldn't make that assumption - the most vocal responses aren't necessarily the most representative, and those (like myself) who go "mm, that's interesting, wouldn't have thought of that" are far less likely to post a response than those who think "SACK THE LOT OF 'EM".

That's the internet for you. And media, politics, community organisations...

 

[asylumxl]

I wouldn't make that assumption - the most vocal responses aren't necessarily the most representative, and those (like myself) who go "mm, that's interesting, wouldn't have thought of that" are far less likely to post a response than those who think "SACK THE LOT OF 'EM"

Couldn't agree more. Majority of people are just good hearted folk with no agenda other than to learn from people on this forum.

Just like in reality, some people are polite and have manners, others don't. If my train has a guard or if I see the driver at a terminus, I will always thank them, as this was how I was brought up.

Don't let the trolls get you down .

 

[ANorthernGuard]

I'm afraid that the time has come to let the forum have both barrels. I, and others, have been patient, bided our time and done all we can to be magnanimous, but I'm afraid that my patience has just run out.

It seems that most days I visit the forum I'm having to explain and defend the actions of drivers and other members of staff and stand up for them in threads where other members are baying for blood. It's very tiring and really quite demoralising and, on occasion, I have been on the point of jacking the whole thing in as a bad lot. Some people here are far worse than even the most nit-picking managers and seem to be very quick to advocate dismissal. So many times I've patiently gone round and round explaining the same thing over and over again, and it's a thankless task because it makes not one iota of difference. All I do is wear myself out. I don't wish to be thanked or venerated, but equally I don't expect to have everything I say endlessly disected and pored over or be held up to ridicule simply because the railways don't do whatever you think it is we should be doing. Just a little courtesy and respect would go a long way.

To be entirely honest, I'm getting pretty sick and tired of the whole thing. I know my job and have as good an understanding of the demands it makes as anyone else here, and a far better understanding than some others. I don't need to justify my actions to anyone but my employer, so please leave me alone to get on with it. I will not defend the indefensible, but strongly disapprove of "trial by forum" in regard to matters that should properly be handled under a company's disciplinary procedures. The railway can quite adequately police itself thank you very much, and those members of staff who do not meet the required standards will be dealt with accordingly. Report something if you must, but please do so using the appropriate channels.

Enough is enough. Railstaff like myself are discouraged by the conduct of this forum. I would never dare to argue back to someone in a different profession no matter how much I think I know about it.

O L Leigh

I wholeheartedly agree with you, I always do my utmost to give the correct advice to anyone on here who needs it however there is so much anti railstaff garbage that goes on I tend to wonder what the point is.

 

[Roylang]

Human nature often results in us getting defensive and I certainly think this is the case with a couple of threads recently: staff defending their position, passengers theirs. In both cases I believe the "injured parties" will feel that they are suffering the worst.

Take the thread on the alleged newspaper reading incident. This was started with just a simple reference to a news story. Nobody on this forum "shopped" the driver. Indeed, looking at the name, I suggest it was started by a member of railway staff?

The thread has now run through drivers are incompetent, trainspotters are there to get people, the "public" on this thread don't know anything...

As a member of the public I, for one, have been offended by some of the accusations levelled, as I am sure have some of the staff from their side.

Whilst I agree that the investigation needs to run to find out exactly what occurred, there are many who are blaming the photographer, some comments being really quite nasty - accusations of lying etc. Nobody (until I posted) has said "don't blame the photographer" until the investigation is over. Remember - the photographer as a member of the public deserves the same curtesy as staff.

Balance is needed, and I hope that everybody who posts here can maybe take that extra minute to read what was said (I have been guilty of misreading) and to write as dispassionately as possible. To lose staff members of this forum would be a disaster.

Roy

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Whilst you may want a forum where members never complain about railway staff, that isn't going to happen - you may want a one way street but that is not what a forum is about and we need to try and strike a balance with things (see below)....

Instead of a street (one or two way), could we have a park, with trees and swings and roundabouts so the kids can play, oh, and those wooden picnic tables that you look stupid putting you legs in so that the adults can have a drink and discuss like people do. That way we can all have fun, ofcourse there will still be a few scuffles, but no-one would get run over!

I don't really think there is an issue with moaning about staff as such, not when staff are wrong (although perhaps letting the TOC deal with it is a good idea). Staff are sometimes wrong, we aren't perfect (who is?), but the real issue to me is when the rules are then laid out for all to see and the staff are not wrong. Then, more often than not, the rules are wrong and so the staff are, it's never the passenger, staff/TOCs are just covering there own interests!

The railway isn't simple, people (on both sides) get things wrong, and this creates problems, but can we all be adult about it?

 

[michael769]

I fear it is a sad fact of (internet) life that people will complain on internet forums! It is also a sad fact of life that people who work at the coal-face in a service industry will face complaints and criticisms from their customers.

As with any walk of life the majority of rail staff I see do a very good job and seem genuinely interested in doing the best job they can. There are of course a minority of rail staff who do have poor unhelpful attitudes, and as it is human nature that the bad experiences in life that to be remembered more that the good, the result is that often all staff get tarred with the same brush.

I always welcome the fact that rail staff are willing to come on here and to give us the insider view. While I may not always agree with everything it is still illuminating to be able to hear the view from from "the other side". And even if I don't agree - it does not eman I'm not listening to you.

Personally I think that we all could sometimes do better to not personalise these things. We (as passengers, and also as the taxpayers who subsidise the railway) have a right to question and comment on how our railways are being run. But we should remember that for the most part staff are there to follow the rules and working practices of the railways - rather than complaining about unhelpful [insert TOC of your choice] staff at [insert station of your choice], what we should really be questioning is how some of out TOCs are running the services and putting forward how such things could be improved.

But the same applies to the staff side, by all means set forth the official line, or remind people that what the media prints is not always entirely accurate - but please remember that when someone lets off steam about a bad experience or one of the minority of staff who give you all a bad name - it's not an attack on you, nor an attack on your railways - it's just a frustrated person who had a bad day letting off steam.

Where I have seen (or been involved in) arguments with rail staff my overall view is that the two sides do not really listen to each other's point of view, it just seems to be people repeating the same view over and over - which is not really helpful to be honest. yest set out your point of view - but don;t feel the need to repeat it in 10 different ways just because other people are disagreeing with you.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

I'd just like to add my support (and some sympathy) for the OP in this thread.

There's an astonishing amount of wingeing and criticism on this site from people who (in my opinion) don't know what they're talking about, much of it directed at staff or policies which the critic appears not to understand.

I guess much of it is down to the passionate enthusiasm of youth which is as quick to become unjustifiably excited about something as it is to become unjustifiably damning. That's probably par for the course in the entertainment industries but can seem a little out of place in the transport sector!

I tried using the 'ignore' feature of this forum to block out posts by posters who regularly winged or went off on wild speculative tangents, but it can equally make parts of the forum rather nonsensical. I think we all just have to take a deep breath, count to ten, or even walk away when the "driver should have done something" or "platform staff are jobsworths" threads start.
They irritate me too. Very much.
But I doubt they'll stop.

 

[Greenback]

(Please note the below is 100% personal opinion)

I can understand the feelings of the staff on here to an extent to be honest

I think that, like the world we live in, this forum does have a few people who rub people up the wrong way, deliberately or otherwise - sadly I think this is a factor on any internet community, although I too have noticed a rise in incidents lately.

As a relatively new moderator, I've seen this debate grow as a normal user and O L Leigh is right for the most part in my view that there isn't a lot we as mods can do to help this situation - at the end of the day, I think the forum community as a whole needs to have the same mindset on not being overly anti-staff (I'm not talking in a ticketing sense here, more general attitude) - of course healthy debate is good, but I think recently the line has been crossed.

Just my view on the situation

(As an aside, I think it would be tragic for the forum if the rail staff core of this forum left, so I'd hope that anyone reading this takes on board what's being said )

I agree very much with what you are saying here Mike, particularly that the line has been crossed recently.

I was away for three weeks from the end of June and I noticed when I returned (I marked all forums as read as I didn't have time to even look at what had happened wduring those weeks!) that there seemed to be more threads being started about poor staff attitudes and behaviour. By yesterday, when i notcied anothe rone had been started about a guard, I actually started writing a reply about how its been at least two hours since the last anti staff rant, so we were due for another one, before realising that it would only inflame things and not really help!

I don't want to spend my time reporting posts. And many posts don't really break any rules in themselves, it's just that some posters seem to have an unrealistic expectation of how rail staff should behave (Flamingo has illustrated that vary well I think). Yes, there are some bad apples, as in every walk of life, but on the whole there are far, far more brilliant staff on the railway than bad ones. Maybe some people are envious of those who work on the railway, maybe they are just young or naive, maybe they are just out to wind people up, I don't know. Most likely it's a combination of all those things.

I'm sure no one wants to stifle debate. But we should be aware that the effect of threads that are based on speculation, guesswork or spite are just going to lead to a further polarisation of views between staff and non staff members. This cannot be good for the forum long term. If we all take a moment, have a deep breath and a sense of persepective, I am sure things will die down and we can go back to teh situation where railway staff don't feel as if they are going to be beaten with an internet stick every time they log on!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I'd just like to add my support (and some sympathy) for the OP in this thread.

There's an astonishing amount of wingeing and criticism on this site from people who (in my opinion) don't know what they're talking about, much of it directed at staff or policies which the critic appears not to understand.

I guess much of it is down to the passionate enthusiasm of youth which is as quick to become unjustifiably excited about something as it is to become unjustifiably damning. That's probably par for the course in the entertainment industries but can seem a little out of place in the transport sector!

I tried using the 'ignore' feature of this forum to block out posts by posters who regularly winged or went off on wild speculative tangents, but it can equally make parts of the forum rather nonsensical. I think we all just have to take a deep breath, count to ten, or even walk away when the "driver should have done something" or "platform staff are jobsworths" threads start.
They irritate me too. Very much.
But I doubt they'll stop.

Our posts crossed, but we seem to be saying much the same thing! I doubt the posts will stop, but I'd like to see the numbers of them fall.

 

[WelshBluebird]

I was away for three weeks from the end of June and I noticed when I returned (I marked all forums as read as I didn't have time to even look at what had happened wduring those weeks!) that there seemed to be more threads being started about poor staff attitudes and behaviour. By yesterday, when i notcied anothe rone had been started about a guard, I actually started writing a reply about how its been at least two hours since the last anti staff rant, so we were due for another one, before realising that it would only inflame things and not really help!

And what exactly is wrong with posting threads about poor behavior, or staff being incorrect?
I appreciate they can decend into mud slinging, but surely that is the job of the mods to sort out?
If someone has a genuine complaint / concern, or wants to find out if they actually were right or wrong, then why shouldn't they post a thread about it?

I do realise that the vast majority of railway staff are brilliant. But there is a minority who are not. Either because they are poorly trained, or because they are simply incompetent. I do not see the issue in bringing up cases like that. Of course, as mentioned by quite a few staff, most of the time the customer is wrong. But that doesn't mean that sometimes the staff member is wrong.

Personally, I quite like the fact that there are quite a lot of railway staff on this forum. It can help a lot in dealing with queries and it gives those of us outside the railways a bit of an insight that we would not otherwise get. But I think sometimes people can get defensive and view an "attack" on a single member of railway staff as an attack on all railway staff. I understand that in many professions it is the done thing to stick up for colleages, but you have to accept your colleages can sometimes be wrong, and not see that as an attack on yourself or your profession.

 

[ANorthernGuard]

And what exactly is wrong with posting threads about poor behavior, or staff being incorrect?
I appreciate they can decend into mud slinging, but surely that is the job of the mods to sort out?
If someone has a genuine complaint / concern, or wants to find out if they actually were right or wrong, then why shouldn't they post a thread about it?

I do realise that the vast majority of railway staff are brilliant. But there is a minority who are not. Either because they are poorly trained, or because they are simply incompetent. I do not see the issue in bringing up cases like that. Of course, as mentioned by quite a few staff, most of the time the customer is wrong. But that doesn't mean that sometimes the staff member is wrong.

With the utmost respect, if there is a complaint to be made it should go through the correct channels and not posted (with details) on here. Train companies monitor these forums and if they got a whiff of an accusation against their staff, 2 things would happen, if the complaint was true and correct then that person would be disciplined or if there was no proof to it or obviously a vicious attack on railstaff then I am sure they would look into taking legal action. Remember there already has been legal action taken against numerous people online for defamation of character etc. If some people are making unfounded accusations, I would love to be a lawyer at the moment.

 

[GB]

Fully agree. It would seem the internet or media is the first and only stop people seem to make to complain.

 

[WelshBluebird]

With the utmost respect, if there is a complaint to be made it should go through the correct channels and not posted (with details) on here. Train companies monitor these forums and if they got a whiff of an accusation against their staff, 2 things would happen, if the complaint was true and correct then that person would be disciplined or if there was no proof to it or obviously a vicious attack on railstaff then I am sure they would look into taking legal action. Remember there already has been legal action taken against numerous people online for defamation of character etc. If some people are making unfounded accusations, I would love to be a lawyer at the moment.

I do not mean little comments about staff. I mean situations like the many posted on here where staff have been wrong, or people are questioning say a guard thinking their ticket is not valid. Because of the knowledge that many members of this forum have, people are probably more likely to get a better answer here than they would be asking the ToC (and even if they don't, at least they can be pointed in the right direction rather than going in blind with their complain / query). The other thread about the train leaving early is a bit of an exception, because there is side issue there of trains leaving early in general.
Of course, if people are making up accusations, then I fully support anyone who does want to claim libel against them.

As I have said, the vast majority of railway staff are brilliant. And I do respect them for keeping their cool with some of the idiots about. But there are also a few members of staff (a tiny minority) who are just as bad as the "idiots" in my eyes.

 

[90019]

In general, the majority of the posters on here are fine, but there will always be the minority on either side that will stir things up, the same happens pretty much everywhere and is to be expected if you're going somewhere which has both sides of a debate.

There have been posts on here over the past few days saying that we shouldn't stop for a breather ever! http://www.railforums.co.uk/showpost.php?p=749203&postcount=84

Which is all very well, but there have also been posts like this, which are incredibly childish and don't exactly help the staff side of the debate.

 

[O L Leigh]

I've slept on it and had a chance to reflect and have reviewed some of the threads, but unfortunately I haven't changed my mind.

So, I'm not leaving the forum but I will be changing my posting style. I will now only explain something once and provide one additional post as clarification if needs be. Anyone who still wants to make an issue with my contribution on any given topic will simply be referred back and if they still don't like it, tough.

I will not justify myself or my colleagues on this forum any longer, nor will I tolerate anyone trying to infer that I and others are unsafe or unprofessional simply on the basis of another person's say-so. Whether you agree with them or not, I am fully aware with the required standards of behaviour and work that I must attain and will answer to my manager for any shortfall. If you have issues with these standards then I suggest you take them up in the appropriate manner. I have already said that I will not defend the indefensible and am perfectly well aware that some railstaff act in less than ideal ways, but these matters are for the companies to deal with internally.

O L Leigh

 

[ANorthernGuard]

you know what I like it here But like other members of railstaff we are feeling more and more pished off with the attitude against us by a Vocal minority of posters, the smallest complaint is turned into something totally ridiculous, BUT we try and explain safety aspects to some "enthusiasts" we get told what a load of codswallop and get ignored anyway, look guys/gals if you have a complaint against rail staff use the PROPER AND CORRECT channels, if you can't help yourself and publish things on here LEAVE OUT IDENTIFYING TIMES/PLACES/TOC etc etc. if you want Staff to be civil you have to be civil also (and vice versa) I am sick to death of people going on about something so trivial that guard/driver/traincrew/platform staff has already been hung out to dry when there were no facts at the start of the thread, don't let this forum go the way of others by creating a flame war where no one wins.

Basically

lets all use some common sense

keep to facts and not assumptions

and lets all try to get along

if we don't this forum will die and no one wants that

 

[Greenback]

I do not mean little comments about staff. I mean situations like the many posted on here where staff have been wrong, or people are questioning say a guard thinking their ticket is not valid. Because of the knowledge that many members of this forum have, people are probably more likely to get a better answer here than they would be asking the ToC (and even if they don't, at least they can be pointed in the right direction rather than going in blind with their complain / query). The other thread about the train leaving early is a bit of an exception, because there is side issue there of trains leaving early in general.
Of course, if people are making up accusations, then I fully support anyone who does want to claim libel against them.

Clearly there is nothing wrong with anyone coming to check if some information they have been given is incorrect. Every human being makes mistakes, and sometimes it will be worth checking if a member of staff is correct by consulting others, before firing off acomplaint. If the staff does turn out to be right, then it will save the enquirer from wasting their time folowing it up.

What irks people on the staff side is when that sort of question provokes a rash of stories about 'similar' experiences, many of which are second, third hand or maybe even urban myths, and in fact don't turn out to be similar at all! Then, you often find that what appears to be a straight forward enquiry is, actually, not as simple as it may seem and there is a continuous drip of new information that comes to light.

Now I don;t think that this can ever be stopped, nor perhaps should it be. But I have noticed an increasing level of enthusiasm recently for picking up on everything which could, potentially, be used against members of staff, and gleefully reporting such instances on here. many of this reports are quite trivial, yet they can serve to encourage others to jump on the bandwagon so to speak, and so the whoe thing snowballs. I think that is what has been happening.

I hope that this debate will help people to think a litle bit more critically about what they are posting and the effect that their post will have on others. This may be enough to cool things down. As for the wind up merchants, well, they will always be around!

 

[Oswyntail]

This is a very sad, but perhaps inevitable, thread. I believe that it is important for both groups to remember that there are "bad" passengers and there are "bad" staff, and not to feel that a criticism of an individual is criticism of the whole group.
However, we must also remember that there are "bad" forum members, not necessarily consistently so, but in need of the occasional reminder. Once or twice on this thread we have had members saying they do not report posts they think could be reported. IMHO, this is more likely to lead to escalation of ill feeling. As a Moderator on another (completely unrelated) forum, I would much rather have offensive posts and members flagged up early so that contributors can be given a gentle reminder, than let things fester until civil war breaks out. I cannot possibly read all the posts, and my members are my eyes and ears which enable me to moderate effectively. And if this means that a lot of my time is taking up moderating (which, these days, it isn't), then, well, i did volunteer to do it. I cannot speak for the moderators on this board, but they might appreciate your help!

 

[Roylang]

I've slept on it and had a chance to reflect and have reviewed some of the threads, but unfortunately I haven't changed my mind.

So, I'm not leaving the forum but I will be changing my posting style. I will now only explain something once and provide one additional post as clarification if needs be. Anyone who still wants to make an issue with my contribution on any given topic will simply be referred back and if they still don't like it, tough.

I for one hope that you do reconsider and do not change your style. Whilst I do not agree with all that you say, your postings are amongst the most useful on this forum and add to our debates.

Such debate is a wonderful thing when all sides respect the other and their opinions, if you have not got the respect that you deserve from some that is a pity, but please do not allow the few to change you.

Roy

 

[Metroland]

One of the joys of the internet is everyone has the potential to have an opinion - even though thy may have no expertise in an era, and is based on little more than a gut feeling or something they heard down the pub.

Railway staff are not alone in this, I suspect in almost all industries, people are equally frustrated by the nonsense in the press, or posted about them. Very often outsiders simply do not have the grounding in the limitations and everyday problems, or do not appreciate the pressures.

We are in a society now, where people expect services and products to be top notch, and if they are not there is now a conduit to express things - the internet.

Used in the right way, it can be helpful: but the first rule is you cannot reason with some people, you can just express your side of it and leave it at that - I suspect we all find this from time to time. Human beings are by and large ideological, and this has much to do with the way the human brain works, people do not change long held beliefs very easily. It doesn't help the railways are one of those subjects where there are many myths, and I fully appreciate the uphill struggle in the desire to educate and inform.

With many discussions, both parties can be right, but they are just coming from different angles, with different needs and perspectives.

And here's the but:

I think where some staff slip on on here is they have to remember they are agents of the companies involved, acting as spokespeople for the conduct of their companies and colleagues. In that regard as important as anyone else in the company.

I've seen some staff get very rude with members of the public on this forum, myself included. Whereas I fully appreciate people can be equally as rude, you are in the special position that you represent the company. You are potentially selling products and services to a wider audience whether you like it or not. What you say (and do) reflects the ethos of the companies you work for, how you think about and value your customers.

I'll hold my hand up and say I'm no PR guru by a long shot, but this is a very basic rule. Just occasionally there comes across a certain arrogance that the railways will always exist in the form they do now, and people will support them regardless. Terms and conditions are far more important than the messy business of running trains. That's not to say that IS the case, but just occasionally, that is the perception.

The railways will continue to need the support of people to not only use the trains, but to privately and publicly argue for investment in things like high speed rail, or electrification. Staff should not regard 'enthusiasts' as a side line (or a bunch of trainspotters, we are occasionally disparaging called) very often it's enthusiasts working alone or in groups that are pushing politicians for investments, as well as of course the industry itself.

The railways are a partnership between everyone: Passengers, staff, managers, politicians, enthusiasts, and so on. Ideally there should be mutual respect between all parties, and especially toward the passenger and freight user. Because at some level or another, we all believe or have a stake in the same thing.

As for the opening poster, I think your posts are some of the most intelligent and even minded I read on any rail forum, keep up the good work.

 

[Greenback]

In general, the majority of the posters on here are fine, but there will always be the minority on either side that will stir things up, the same happens pretty much everywhere and is to be expected if you're going somewhere which has both sides of a debate.

Which is all very well, but there have also been posts like this, which are incredibly childish and don't exactly help the staff side of the debate.

Yes, staff side members are not blameless. But at this point we need to fdraw a line and move on. On both sides.

I've slept on it and had a chance to reflect and have reviewed some of the threads, but unfortunately I haven't changed my mind.

So, I'm not leaving the forum but I will be changing my posting style. I will now only explain something once and provide one additional post as clarification if needs be. Anyone who still wants to make an issue with my contribution on any given topic will simply be referred back and if they still don't like it, tough.

I will not justify myself or my colleagues on this forum any longer, nor will I tolerate anyone trying to infer that I and others are unsafe or unprofessional simply on the basis of another person's say-so. Whether you agree with them or not, I am fully aware with the required standards of behaviour and work that I must attain and will answer to my manager for any shortfall. If you have issues with these standards then I suggest you take them up in the appropriate manner. I have already said that I will not defend the indefensible and am perfectly well aware that some railstaff act in less than ideal ways, but these matters are for the companies to deal with internally.

O L Leigh

I am pleased that you are staying.

you know what I like it here But like other members of railstaff we are feeling more and more pished off with the attitude against us by a Vocal minority of posters, the smallest complaint is turned into something totally ridiculous, BUT we try and explain safety aspects to some "enthusiasts" we get told what a load of codswallop and get ignored anyway, look guys/gals if you have a complaint against rail staff use the PROPER AND CORRECT channels, if you can't help yourself and publish things on here LEAVE OUT IDENTIFYING TIMES/PLACES/TOC etc etc. if you want Staff to be civil you have to be civil also (and vice versa) I am sick to death of people going on about something so trivial that guard/driver/traincrew/platform staff has already been hung out to dry when there were no facts at the start of the thread, don't let this forum go the way of others by creating a flame war where no one wins.

Basically

lets all use some common sense

keep to facts and not assumptions

and lets all try to get along

if we don't this forum will die and no one wants that

Yes, yes, yes and yes. Especially the first one. A litle thought before posting goes a long way.