Railway Industrial Disputes Mk2

[Signal_Box]

I was in conversation earlier with a colleague. Back in 1994 maintenance staff didn't get called out in support of striking signallers, but now consider that signallers are being used as pawns in the fight for maintenance staff. The same person has been balloted by his union, but the 'action short of a strike' has raised the question about managers acting as contingency signallers. Part of this was down to people not actually voting, and counting towards the ballot threshold.

Many aspects of the offer to signallers aren't as bad as it seems. Others have already mentioned the retirement age proposal. I work with a couple of signallers who are in their 70's, who have no interest in retirement. I've always maintained I'd not retire; I've always been used to working most of my life. However, if the job sees me ten years it would be enough - even though I'd still be short of the current statutory retirement age.

Exactly how I see it maintenance wouldn’t give two toots about us, so I’m afraid it’s look after your own as far as I’m concerned.

I’m annoyed the union is using use to add weight to the maintenance cause.

 

[Trainfan061193]

Further strike action called for Thursday 18th August and Saturday 20th August.

Nothing about that in the media. Generally they have to give 2 weeks notice.

 

[Melancholia]

Nothing about that in the media. Generally they have to give 2 weeks notice.

Well... it certainly is more than 2 weeks notice...

Got the e-mail too from RMT, 18th and 20th August confirmed all TOCs and NR for RMT strike action.

Still nothing about action short of a strike though.

 

[skyhigh]

Nothing about that in the media. Generally they have to give 2 weeks notice.

August, not July. It's over a month away - which last time I looked was over 2 weeks!

 

[FatContr0ller]

Nothing about that in the media. Generally they have to give 2 weeks notice.

Can confirm. Got the email from RMT just now

 

[Exscrew]

Can anyone confirm if NR are trying to make Sundays a normal day for signallers?

 

[Signal_Box]

Nothing in the latest offer, so no.

 

[Annetts key]

What an unusual turn of phrase.

I cannot ever recall in participating in such gymnastics, even in my schooldays in the 1950s.

See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standing_on_the_shoulders_of_giants

The phrase Standing on the shoulders of giants is a metaphor which means "Using the understanding gained by major thinkers who have gone before in order to make intellectual progress".

It is a metaphor of dwarfs standing on the shoulders of giants (Latin: nanos gigantum humeris insidentes) and expresses the meaning of "discovering truth by building on previous discoveries". This concept has been dated to the 12th century and, according to John of Salisbury, is attributed to Bernard of Chartres. But its most familiar and popular expression occurs in a 1675 letter by Isaac Newton: "If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of Giants."

I do not work in maintenance... I am not referring to job losses in what I said.

Moving all engineering and inspection work to nights to stop people coming into contact with trains is not possible because you cannot view everything at night.

It obviously is .....because that's what the plan is. Increasingly I see junctions that actually have the ability to be lit up at night. Most inspections are actually carried out by Flying Banana trains, which don't actually care about day or night

You can’t sight signals (check they are correctly aligned and that there are no obstacles/obstructions such as vegetation within this sighting distance) during the hours of darkness. Someone tried adjusting a signal head once, and left the signal pointing into a farmer’s nearby field, rather than at the line!
You can’t properly visually correct check the track alignment (horizontal as well as vertical) during the hours of darkness.
Various vegetation management activities can’t be done effectively or safely during the hours of darkness.
It would not be acceptable to ignore most train service affecting signalling or point failures until the middle of the night.
Some lines are actually busier during the night (lines leading to/from train maintenance depots for example).

 

[jayah]

It could be argued this monopoly buyer gives unions more power.

Before a strike would normally affect one operator. The other operators on the route would still run. Giving passengers some alternative means to travel. Minimising the effectiveness of the action.

If there is now only the one monopoly operator, a strike by its employees completely disrupts all the trains everywhere.

Complete nonsense as is being proven here. Months of strikes and you still won't get RPI.

There is no effect to the action and if there was the employer would go bust and the employees would get P45s.

As that won't happen either it will go on and on.

 

[VP185]

Months of strikes and you still won't get RPI.

I think just about everyone accepts we won’t get RPI.…. personally, I’d be happy with a straight 5% with no strings attached.

 

[jayah]

To get into the medical doctor grade, you need to be a medical doctor. To be a medical doctor, you need to have done Medicine as your degree...

That word 'need' what does it mean in this context? Just another barrier to entry.

6,500,000 waiting lists
1,500,000 FTE in the NHS.
124,000 NHS doctors
9,000 medical degree places per year

 

[The_PlainTruth]

Why not?

A lot of professions have a requirement for staff to demonstrate their own competencies. Take annual state registration/fitness to practice for example, such as in the healthcare profession

Quite simple really. It's a pointless exercise quite different to healthcare because a patient can come to you with any problem. That can't happen on the railway. There are hundreds of regulations to follow, yet some signallers will never deal with some or even most of those regulations because of the location where they are based. So for example, it may be a signal box that has no bridges or a signal box that doesn't have track circuits or sealed releases or sidings or whatever else.

I was recently told of someone that went to a briefing on single line working. Single line working has never ever been done at their signal box. It would be so expensive to do it. There would be 4 level crossings to man. Network Rail doesn't have the staff to spare. There's only one MOM that covers the area at any one time. If the industry wants productivity why is it asking signallers to waste their time doing things they can't ever use?

 

[jayah]

I think just about everyone accepts we won’t get RPI.…. personally, I’d be happy with a straight 5% with no strings attached.

There is little chance of that either. The government want reform and modernisation.

There is a trap forming. It looks like 6 months of strikes and you accept 3.5%, just in time for the next wave of strikes the following year about February 2023.

The document does exist, which I have seen too. There is no 40% pay rise over any time period. For a very, very few people who are having their working arrangements completely changed, it is half that. The RMT negotiatiors evidently have misunderstood it at best, or can’t add up at worst.

when you say “true it’s not a 40% pay rise”, does that mean you knew what you originally said was incorrect when you wrote it?

Nothing new, the unions keep quoting owning group dividends as TOC dividends and quoting proceeds from selling foreign businesses etc.

 

[YorkshireBear]

It obviously is .....because that's what the plan is. Increasingly I see junctions that actually have the ability to be lit up at night. Most inspections are actually carried out by Flying Banana trains, which don't actually care about day or night

It obviously is .....because that's what the plan is. Increasingly I see junctions that actually have the ability to be lit up at night. Most inspections are actually carried out by Flying Banana trains, which don't actually care about day or night

Flying banana looks at the track and the OLE There is another at least 6 asset groups after that!

 

[jayah]

Because they are totally different career paths. Nursing does not lead onto being a doctor.



Not so. There is the private healthcare sector together with other hybrid career paths (e.g. bank and agency).

If you’re going to try and make comparisons do please at least get your facts straight.

You've missed the point. A career in nursing doesn't lead to a career in medicine because it doesn't.

In most other professions it would and this is known as a glass ceiling.

In the UK 10.5% of health spending is private, a very good proportion of that is earned by NHS staff working on the side.

Well within the definition of a monopoly, paying take it or leave it wages, and where the market often leaves the vacancies unfilled and wages are not increased.

This is the current forecast from BoE

View attachment 117596

I wouldn't believe any forecast the BoE produce. They didn't forecast any of what we see today, until it had already started happening.

 

[High Dyke]

I would very much disagree and can also tell you that signallers in my area are extremely hostile to the raid on terms and conditions that are attached to the real-terms pay cut offer that was made. The end of rosters, the end of resident and relief signaller, the inclusion of Sunday in the working week, the requirement to demonstrate their own competencies, a defined working age ... none of this stuff has a hope of being acceptable or even justifiable to improving the industry. It won't improve signallers lives one iota - much the opposite.

The idea from Network Rail that the RMT should put this offer to the membership is for the birds - it would be a waste of everyones time. I'm expecting a Summer of strikes which will ramp up unless NR (and the DFT) stop trying to push impossible terms on its workforce.

Fair enough. However, signallers have always had the ability to demonstrate their competencies by using self-assessment; I've done it myself many times.

End of resident and relief signallers? End of rosters? Not seen that actually suggested. Beyond that, the NRP changes are close to the one last year that was rejected. Some of the other aims stated by NR are "a fanciful notion of someone in Milton Keynes, who does not understand frontline operations. "

Personally I feel that action short of a strike should've been taken first. But no, the leadership have taken the decision they think will achieve the best for us members. Hmm! My branch has already lost members because of the strike action. Other signallers have also advised me that they aren’t prepared to take prolonged strike action and lose money. We all have bills to pay still.

 

[Horizon22]

You've missed the point. A career in nursing doesn't lead to a career in medicine because it doesn't.

In most other professions it would and this is known as a glass ceiling.

In the UK 10.5% of health spending is private, a very good proportion of that is earned by NHS staff working on the side.

Well within the definition of a monopoly, paying take it or leave it wages, and where the market often leaves the vacancies unfilled and wages are not increased.


I wouldn't believe any forecast the BoE produce. They didn't forecast any of what we see today, until it had already started happening.

Because they have completely different needs and qualifications - perhaps they should have more progression, but its years of degree-level training. In fact most doctors haven't really finished training until they are a consultant.

 

[jayah]

If it was 5% no strings attached then they might get it over the line. What the public aren't being told is the job losses, ok not 30% as RMT say but still around 18% of mtce workforce although doubt they will have any trouble finding VS candidates. The issue that RMT also major on is the change to working conditions ie having to work 39 weekends a year and 39 weeks of night shifts for no additional remuneration.

The reason for 39 weekends is because they want their staff working on tracks that are closed to trains. Too many people were getting killed and it should have happened years ago.

They never mention this when playing the safety card.

Technology is meant to be replacing much of the patrolling and inspecting, and is actually better at it. The RMT would demand a fireman in every cab if they were still on the payroll and their reason for being means they can't really do anything else until the jobs have gone.

There comes the time when like Southern OBS, it is better all round to just stop talking and get on and implement it.

The unions are trapped by the necessity to self harm over these events and the sooner the reason for doing so is removed and the redundant staff get their new assignments or cheques the better for everyone. A year from now the labour market may be much worse.

 

[Moonshot]

Flying banana looks at the track and the OLE There is another at least 6 asset groups after that!

No amount of you posting on here is going to change the fact that some 2000 or so are going to be reduced from the NR headcount. That's the reality as a few have mentioned. That reduction will come about from a VS scheme. Doesn't matter whether you think it's wrong.....it's happening.

 

[jayah]

Fair enough. However, signallers have always had the ability to demonstrate their competencies by using self-assessment; I've done it myself many times.

End of resident and relief signallers? End of rosters? Not seen that actually suggested. Beyond that, the NRP changes are close to the one last year that was rejected. Some of the other aims stated by NR are "a fanciful notion of someone in Milton Keynes, who does not understand frontline operations. "

Personally I feel that action short of a strike should've been taken first. But no, the leadership have taken the decision they think will achieve the best for us members. Hmm! My branch has already lost members because of the strike action. Other signallers have also advised me that they aren’t prepared to take prolonged strike action and lose money. We all have bills to pay still.

The leadership are fighting the government as much as anybody else. A lot of it is pure politics like 1983.

 

[Moonshot]

See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standing_on_the_shoulders_of_giants





You can’t sight signals (check they are correctly aligned and that there are no obstacles/obstructions such as vegetation within this sighting distance) during the hours of darkness. Someone tried adjusting a signal head once, and left the signal pointing into a farmer’s nearby field, rather than at the line!
You can’t properly visually correct check the track alignment (horizontal as well as vertical) during the hours of darkness.
Various vegetation management activities can’t be done effectively or safely during the hours of darkness.
It would not be acceptable to ignore most train service affecting signalling or point failures until the middle of the night.
Some lines are actually busier during the night (lines leading to/from train maintenance depots for example).

Makes you wonder how NR have managed to take night possessions near me and done all of the above

 

[jayah]

Because they have completely different needs and qualifications - perhaps they should have more progression, but its years of degree-level training. In fact most doctors haven't really finished training until they are a consultant.

At the moment almost zero progress outside the nursing branch. Which makes nursing a far less attractive career.

It is like suggesting that working on a station was completely different to working on a train and experience of one was irrelevant to the other. Ditto guards and drivers.

There needs to be a viable and actively used career pathway, not this 1950s mentality about getting ideas above your station.

 

[gazzaa2]

What a surprise they pick a Saturday

 

[the sniper]

The RMT would demand a fireman in every cab if they were still on the payroll and their reason for being means they can't really do anything else until the jobs have gone.

By your logic, they would still be on the pay role, due to the unions. But they aren't.

 

[footprints]

Complete nonsense as is being proven here. Months of strikes and you still won't get RPI.

There is no effect to the action and if there was the employer would go bust and the employees would get P45s.

As that won't happen either it will go on and on.

All the RMT are achieving is striking themselves into total irrelevance.

 

[jayah]

By your logic, they should still be on the pay role, due to the unions. But they aren't.

They were for quite a few years after the steam engines went, ensuring pay stayed low for everybody else!

All the RMT are achieving is striking themselves into total irrelevance.

Interesting to note how ASLEF claim all these deals they have done with Freightliner and DB.

If ASLEF went on strike, these companies would lose their customers and the drivers would lose their jobs, in short order.

Compare and contrast.

 

[O L Leigh]

You've missed the point. A career in nursing doesn't lead to a career in medicine because it doesn't.

In most other professions it would and this is known as a glass ceiling.

It’s not a glass ceiling. It’s a completely different career path, as has been pointed out. It’s like suggesting that doctors should be able to progress on to become High Court judges.

In the UK 10.5% of health spending is private, a very good proportion of that is earned by NHS staff working on the side.

Regrettably for you, a very good friend of mine is a Band 8 nurse who his about to transition back to the NHS after 12 years in the private sector based in London. Even there, the proportion of NHS staff doing bank shifts in the private sector is perhaps not as high as you seem to imagine.

Well within the definition of a monopoly, paying take it or leave it wages, and where the market often leaves the vacancies unfilled and wages are not increased.

Subject to negotiations with their employer, everyone gets paid “take it or leave it wages”. Different employers will pay different rates depending on a number of factors, even within the nursing market.

But seeing as you’re insistent on making parallels with nursing, I should point out that there really aren’t that many parallels you can realistically draw. Nursing vacancies remain unfilled because of a paucity of suitable candidates. However, a ward can still be run “short handed” provided that the safety margins are not breached. You can’t really do this with traincrew without cancellations.

 

[YorkshireBear]

No amount of you posting on here is going to change the fact that some 2000 or so are going to be reduced from the NR headcount. That's the reality as a few have mentioned. That reduction will come about from a VS scheme. Doesn't matter whether you think it's wrong.....it's happening.

I've already said I don't work in maintenance. Wasn't talking about that or the job losses I have just checked my posts and never mentioned them, I was talking about the obsession of moving everything to nights. Some things you cannot see at night because to light it up enough you would be disturbing half a town.

 

[choochoochoo]

Complete nonsense as is being proven here. Months of strikes and you still won't get RPI.

There is no effect to the action and if there was the employer would go bust and the employees would get P45s.

As that won't happen either it will go on and on.

How is it nonsense ?

If the railway is nationalised and the entire workforce goes on strike at the same time then that’s more effective than groups of staff for various tocs going on strike.

Also If it is nationalised it can’t go bust. The government foots the bill. So nobody loses their jobs.

 

[JonathanH]

What a surprise they pick a Saturday

RMT chose a Wednesday.

Why shouldn't a strike be on a Saturday? The whole point is to get the message across and cause disruption to get the decision makers to notice.