Remaining Class 365s leaving GN - What next for the 365s?

[365 Networker]

I agree. They could be used to test battery equipment but I can't see anyone signing up to widespread battery use until the conversion is proven given what has happened with 769s

Whilst not in the UK, battery trains have been used to replace DMUs in Japan. Here is some information from Wikipedia:-
From March 2014, a two-car battery electric multiple unit, the EV-E301 series with 1,500 V DC overhead wire and battery power capability, entered revenue-earning service on the 20 km (12 mi) long non-electrified Karasuyama Line.[33]

Since March 4, 2017, battery electric trains have completely replaced diesel multiple units on this route. There are four two-car sets in operation, each set equipped with a 190 kWh lithium-ion battery.[34]

The trains recharge their batteries at Karasuyama Station (the end of the line) via their pantographs, using a rigid conductor bar placed where the overhead wires would be, connected to the local electric grid. At the other end, at Hōshakuji, the Karasuyama Line meets the electrified Tohoku Main Line. The trains then continue over the electrified Tohoku Main Line to Utsunomiya, where passengers can change to Shinkansen high-speed trains.

Obviously that was a newly built train, but I can't see why similar technology couldn't be used in an older EMU.

 

[Kite159]

Oh in that case never mind - I was wrong there. Do they have tables? They’d need them for the Cumbrian services.

IIRC Seat back folding tables for the airline seats with little tables in the bay seats (more drinks holders)

 

[JonathanH]

Obviously that was a newly built train, but I can't see why similar technology couldn't be used in an older EMU.

I guess there is a question about where to put the batteries - can the construction of the 365s carry the weight of batteries? The motors are in the end vehicles and the pantograph in one of the trailers so presumably there is a bus line if batteries went under one of the trailers.

On the seven year point, I was referring to 365s replacing an initial fleet of diesel units. Nevertheless, even if they were earmarked for EWR, it would be 3-4 years of no use. I still am not sure who would have touted the units to EWR though given the rolling stock companies would have had other rolling stock they might have wanted to put forward. Remember that the tender requires a full maintenance package for the rolling stock and, it appears to have been awarded.

https://bidstats.uk/tenders/2020/W47/739049495

EWR Co is seeking bids for leasing a fleet of 12 or 14 x 3 car self-powered units with modifications including European Train Control System (‘ETCS’) Level 2 and Driver Controlled Operation (‘DCO’) capability, supported by a full maintenance package (under a ‘wet’ lease). These units will ensure timely operation of EWR’s Western Section Phase 2 between Oxford, Milton Keynes, Bedford and Aylesbury. The lease duration is four years, with an option to extend for 2 years.

Total Quantity or Scope
The scope of the services to be provided will include (but are not limited to the following):
1) rolling stock for use on rail passenger services for the Western Section;
2) technical options;
3) provision of manuals and training;
4) maintenance support services for the rolling stock.
The rolling stock will be procured under a lease, supported by a full maintenance package for an initial term of 4 years until the planned completion of the Central Section. The lease will contain an option to extend the term for up to 2 years.

 

[jon0844]

If c2c is relying on Bombardier for new trains, we could be waiting a while...

 

[365 Networker]

I guess there is a question about where to put the batteries - can the construction of the 365s carry the weight of batteries?

Perhaps they could be roof mounted? There might also be some space in the undercarriage.

 

[londonteacher]

Are there any orders that have not been started for an TOC where a 365 would be a good fit? If not, then the only solution would be scrap or someone converting for freight use.

 

[Journeyman]

Commercially sensitive for who? 30 year old rollingstock goes into storage due to low passenger numbers, it cant really be a surprise to the ROSCO.

Commercially sensitive for the company looking at them for a potential new project. It's really not sensible to blab about this in public.

 

[Mitchell Hurd]

Wasn't there a discussion about EMU trailers possibly being inserted into GWR Turbo trains - the 2-car sets increased to 3 coaches and the 3-coach Turbos increased to 5 coaches?

There's a thought .

 

[Bletchleyite]

Wasn't there a discussion about EMU trailers possibly being inserted into GWR Turbo trains - the 2-car sets increased to 3 coaches and the 3-coach Turbos increased to 5 coaches?

There was indeed. I don't know how far that got though, or exactly which EMUs were involved.

 

[JonathanH]

Wasn't there a discussion about EMU trailers possibly being inserted into GWR Turbo trains - the 2-car sets increased to 3 coaches and the 3-coach Turbos increased to 5 coaches?

There's a thought .

That was about Angel Trains putting 465 trailers into 165s and 166s - the important observation being that they own both fleets. They don't own the 365s.

 

[Class 170101]

One does wonder whether the c2c order could be cancelled and Class 720s from GA diverted there instead on the basis the pandemic affects all operators so all will need fewer trains.

 

[D365]

One does wonder whether the c2c order could be cancelled and Class 720s from GA diverted there instead on the basis the pandemic affects all operators so all will need fewer trains.

Reshuffling existing fleets is fine, especially as the 387/3s would be leaving c2c anyway. However I think it's a bit too soon to be cutting contracted orders when we have no clue how the post-pandemic surge in travel will look.

 

[Energy]

One does wonder whether the c2c order could be cancelled and Class 720s from GA diverted there instead on the basis the pandemic affects all operators so all will need fewer trains.

Different ROSCOs, different TOC owners, sending the trains across would be difficult.

 

[Wolfie]

Commercially sensitive for who? 30 year old rollingstock goes into storage due to low passenger numbers, it cant really be a surprise to the ROSCO.

I rather think that in this case the "ROSCO" is DfT.....

One does wonder whether the c2c order could be cancelled and Class 720s from GA diverted there instead on the basis the pandemic affects all operators so all will need fewer trains.

Likely some hefty financial penalties for breaking an extant contract.

 

[Class 170101]

I rather think that in this case the "ROSCO" is DfT.....


Likely some hefty financial penalties for breaking an extant contract.

True when are they supposed to be delivered to c2c perhaps the cancellation of the trains might be Bombardier off the hook too if they are late?

 

[JonathanH]

I rather think that in this case the "ROSCO" is DfT.....

No matter. There would still be commercial sensitivity around the suppliers and whoever is promoting the work. The DfT may be able to do many things but they don't own any engineering functions who could fit batteries to their trains.

 

[Wolfie]

No matter. There would still be commercial sensitivity around the suppliers and whoever is promoting the work. The DfT may be able to do many things but they don't own any engineering functions who could fit batteries to their trains.

True enough. I'm sure that HMT would love nothing more than to sell them off given half a chance.

True when are they supposed to be delivered to c2c perhaps the cancellation of the trains might be Bombardier off the hook too if they are late?

Depends on if they've entered contracts themselves, bought the components/materials and indeed possiblity even started construction....

 

[RealTrains07]

The GN fleet is being reduced due to the reduction in passenger numbers.

It has been confirmed that the remaining 21 x Class 365s will be leaving GN and placed into storage. What next for the 365s? Scrape or moved to another operator?

GN to get 6 x 387/2 units from Gatwick Express and another 6 x 387s from C2C.

I can think of other operators who need these 387s more than GN.

 

[Energy]

I can think of other operators who need these 387s more than GN.

Who?

 

[357]

I can think of other operators who need these 387s more than GN.

Who?

It's not like there is a shortage of EMUs at the moment if anyone needs them!

 

[365 Networker]

Who?

It's not like there is a shortage of EMUs at the moment if anyone needs them!

Possibly Southern - then they could replace the 313s.

 

[D365]

Possibly Southern - then they could replace the 313s.

Anything could replace the 313s.

Good luck getting DC pickup back onto a 365.

 

[365 Networker]

Good luck getting DC pickup back onto a 365

I don’t think they will ever run on DC again, as all of the third rail equipment was lost and I believe other issues were discovered when the third rail equipment was removed.

 

[Egg Centric]

How about an open access operator on the ECML, offering comfort, catering e.t.c.
If batteries are fitted, then they could be sent to Cross Country to replace the Turbostars.
They could also be used on East-west rail either with batteries or overhead lines if the route is ever electrified.

There's something about you... I cannot put my finger on it... but something about you, 365 Networker that makes me wonder if you are entirely objective about the subject of 365 disposal

They have an increased number of diagrams on Sundays between March and April because of the Kings Cross project, so there are 2 pairs of them on the Peterborough route, as well as a single return weekday peak working also to Peterborough.

Is that still going ahead though? The suggestion in this thread is they're off for the chop early? Or is this the start of withdrawals? The first train I started taking regularly as a teenager was (usually) a 365 and this is a bit of a kick in the gut; one more go if they're coming back in March would be enough - you're confident about it?

 

[Skimble19]

Is that still going ahead though? The suggestion in this thread is they're off for the chop early? Or is this the start of withdrawals? The first train I started taking regularly as a teenager was (usually) a 365 and this is a bit of a kick in the gut; one more go if they're coming back in March would be enough - you're confident about it?

They’re planned to be out on Peterborough to Potters Bar services on Friday 26th, so shouldn’t be going anywhere just yet. As for March and April, that should still be the plan, although things are certainly “fluid” at the moment!

 

[43074]

Is that still going ahead though? The suggestion in this thread is they're off for the chop early? Or is this the start of withdrawals? The first train I started taking regularly as a teenager was (usually) a 365 and this is a bit of a kick in the gut; one more go if they're coming back in March would be enough - you're confident about it?

Yes I am confident about that.

 

[365 Networker]

Yes I am confident about that.

Do you have the unit diagrams? I would really like one last ride on them.

 

[JamesRowden]

Perhaps we can link this change in GTR total quantity of rolling stock with the suggestions that the 2tph Cambridge to London stoppers will not run through the Thameslink core to Maidstone East as was planned. This would mean that not so many 700s will be required on Thameslink services, and therefore 700s will be able to operate some Great Northern services in the place of some 365s.

 

[swt_passenger]

Anything could replace the 313s.

Good luck getting DC pickup back onto a 365.

But the proposal here (if you follow the conversation back) was 387s to Southern instead, which are already dual voltage. Getting a bit OT in amongst 365 proposals of course...

 

[Doctor Fegg]

How about an open access operator on the ECML, offering comfort, catering e.t.c.

WAGN wanted to do that, of course - extend some Peterborough services to Doncaster. ORR turned it down.