Restoring Your Railway Fund: what ideas would you suggest?

[Jorge Da Silva]

Some bids that have been submitted:

June 2020

Bolton to Bury
Keswick to Penrith
Radcliffe Upgrade (more services stopping at the station)
Shear Valley (Reopening Heeley & Millhouses stations as well as four platforms at Dore & Totley)
Ledsham
St Anne’s Park
Etruria Station & Stoke to Leek Line

 

[furnessvale]

More likely *flying pigs* (!)

Stumbling block would undoubtedly be what to do with the 400kv National Grid power cables which have been installed through the 1950s Woodhead tunnel.

Whatever the rights and wrongs of a reopened Woodhead, it would be cheaper to refurbish the old tunnels and put the cables back in them than to bore a completely new rail tunnel.

 

[furnessvale]

I just see high costs without enough benefits to justify them with Skipton-Colne.

"Great Transpennine Route" - if you ignore the one that already exists by turning right at Gannow Jn rather than left.

Have they solved the problem of everything east of Copy Pit quietly sliding downhill to the valley floor?

I spent some of my youth surveying the area every 6 months to measure the slippage. There were times when the future of the line was threatened.

 

[stuu]

So nothing for the south west. Surprise surprise. Wellington and Cullompton will only serve to slow down intercity services between the south west and London /the north and are fairly pointless.
No mention of Tavistock or Okehampton routes.
I guess the Tories have realised that public opinion down here has shifted enough that they have no hope of keeping most of the seats they won in the last election and so why bother giving us anything meaningful.

If those stations reopen then there will need to be a local service provided, not stops on long distance trains. Wellington is a bigger town than either Okehampton or Tavistock, so why is it less worthy of a station.

As to trains being delayed by dmus stopping at Wellington, yes they probably will from time to time. But sensible timetabling should mitigate that, there are only 4 trains most hours along there

 

[irish_rail]

If those stations reopen then there will need to be a local service provided, not stops on long distance trains. Wellington is a bigger town than either Okehampton or Tavistock, so why is it less worthy of a station.

As to trains being delayed by dmus stopping at Wellington, yes they probably will from time to time. But sensible timetabling should mitigate that, there are only 4 trains most hours along there

Tavistock to okehampton is about opening up a whole area to railways as well as providing a vital diversionary route.
I just don't feel the need to serve a town of 15000 odd people really is worth potentially delaying longer distance journeys. Journeys to and from the south west are already slow. 3 and a half hours Plymouth to Birmingham and not much quicker to London isn't really great. So a stopper added into the mix between taunton and Exeter isn't going to help things much for vast majority of travellers in the south west.
If traction is to be 185 or similar won't be so bad, but if it ends up as 15x or turbos then will be pretty slow and make patching difficult.

 

[Bald Rick]

Tavistock to okehampton is about opening up a whole area to railways as well as providing a vital diversionary route.

A ‘whole area’ of largely Moorland.

And, as ever, no railway has ever been justified on diversionary capability.

 

[Glenn1969]

The Tavistock route would allow Devon and Cornwall to retain their rail link with the rest of the country when Dawlish is compromised by the weather which seems to be quite often

 

[Bald Rick]

The Tavistock route would allow Devon and Cornwall to retain their rail link with the rest of the country when Dawlish is compromised by the weather which seems to be quite often

How often in the last 5 years?

 

[irish_rail]

How often in the last 5 years?

Well if you are talking about cross country then they get caped at least monthly through autumn and winter due to Dawlish. That may be acceptable to those in parts of the country with excellent transport links , but the railway to the south west is an economic lifeline and frankly that the line should ever be closed is unacceptable. It wouldn't be tolerated in the south east or the north.

 

[Bald Rick]

Well if you are talking about cross country then they get caped at least monthly through autumn and winter due to Dawlish. That may be acceptable to those in parts of the country with excellent transport links , but the railway to the south west is an economic lifeline and frankly that the line should ever be closed is unacceptable. It wouldn't be tolerated in the south east or the north.

I think being delayed half an hour or so while you wait for a non-Voyager, perhaps once a month, is not closing the line or cutting off an economic lifeline.

 

[irish_rail]

I think being delayed half an hour or so while you wait for a non-Voyager, perhaps once a month, is not closing the line or cutting off an economic lifeline.

Well unreliable transport links are a big factor in preventing industry and commerce locating to a particular part of the country. We know this because the north bangs on about It none stop.
It is little wonder that Devon and Cornwall is on its knees right now , with tourism wrecked as there isn't alot else down here.

 

[RT4038]

Well unreliable transport links are a big factor in preventing industry and commerce locating to a particular part of the country. We know this because the north bangs on about It none stop.
It is little wonder that Devon and Cornwall is on its knees right now , with tourism wrecked as there isn't alot else down here.

A bit of hyperbole here. If the Isle of Wight ferries are not operating, the Isle of Wight is cut off. If trains are not operating at Dawlish, the extensive road network connecting Cornwall and West Devon continue to link with the rest of the country; they are not cut off. This road network only grinds to a halt at times of heavy snowfall, and then only for a short period.
A lack of a circuitous backwater branch line via Tavistock and Okehampton is hardly likely to prevent industry and commerce locating in Corwall and West Devon (unless this industry and commerce is only viable by seriously contemplating using Rail Freight, which is pretty unlikely judging from the experience of the rest of the country).
If serious money is to be spent on a rail solution to the Dawlish problem, and the economic fortunes of West Devon and Cornwall, it needs to be a new speedy line from Exeter to Plymouth [with a branch to Newton Abbott and Torbay], bypassing Dawlish and the South Devon banks with tunnels, principally for faster journeys and secondly for service resilience.

 

[onlinespotting]

As per the local
sentinel newspaper, Stoke on Trent City Council put the successful bid in to reopen Meir Station but also had unsuccessful
Bids for Stoke to Leek line reopening and Etruria reopening (tragedy that it closed), they are going to re-bid the other two in future bids apparently (I’m not sure how it works)

 

[Kryten2340]

I was reading this over the weekend but I am struggling to see the benefit. Does the Team Vallley need it's own rail service?

https://www.chroniclelive.co.uk/news/north-east-news/bid-launched-reopen-rail-line-18331742.amp

A bid has been launched to reopen a long forgotten stretch of railway line which connects Newcastle, Gateshead and the Team Valley.

The 'Bensham curve' track was axed during a mass reduction of rail services in the 1960s but could be brought back to life.

Three MPs have applied for funding to restore the line which could provide rail or Metro connections to Low Fell and the Team Valley, as well as offering another way for trains into Newcastle to free up the East Coast Main Line.

The idea, which had already been identified by Nexus as one way of improving rail connections in the region, is being considered by the Department for Transport.

Gateshead MP Ian Mearns said: "This is a very realistic scheme - we've got a stretch of line connecting Gateshead, Tyneside and the Team Valley and it won't disrupt rail traffic on the main line either.

"Plus, it's a flexible idea because it could be utilised for a Metro extension or for future rail services.

"First and foremost, the first thing we need to be thinking about when we make infrastructure decisions is decarbonising the economy and this would give lots of commuters options.

"There are as many as 25,000 people working on the Team Valley and you can only get there by car or on the bus. This would be a cleaner way to get to work for a lot of people.

"We have miles and miles of disused railway line in the North East and if this Government is serious about its pledges to invest in the region then this would be a very good place to start."

He has been working on the bid along with Blaydon MP Liz Twist and Jarrow MP Kate Osborne.

This week, Transport Secretary Grant Shapps pledged the Government would 'reverse Beeching', a move which saw more than 2,000 stations and 5,000 miles of track closed.

Mr Shapps added: "Many of the places removed from the map never recovered. That report was perhaps the origin of the ‘left-behind town’."

Back in January, the Government announced a £500m pot of funding local leaders could apply for access to in order to explore ways of getting towns back on rail lines.

Ten schemes around the country received cash from the 'ideas fund' this week.

 

[bluenoxid]

A1 grinds to a halt in that area and all bets are off for people particularly those using public transport. Lots of people with relatively short commutes decide to drive because at least you are in control of your own destiny.

It would be interesting to compare the impact on the timetable of a Teams Valley shuttle with and without the curve (use direct lines)

 

[swt_passenger]

I was reading this over the weekend but I am struggling to see the benefit. Does the Team Vallley need it's own rail service?

https://www.chroniclelive.co.uk/news/north-east-news/bid-launched-reopen-rail-line-18331742.amp

This (Bensham curve etc) came up in a separate announcement about the northern ECML and is also being discussed in this thread:

https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/newcastle-york-rail-investment-options-what-are-your-thoughts.203151/page-3

 

[6Gman]

As per the local
sentinel newspaper, Stoke on Trent City Council put the successful bid in to reopen Meir Station but also had unsuccessful
Bids for Stoke to Leek line reopening and Etruria reopening (tragedy that it closed), they are going to re-bid the other two in future bids apparently (I’m not sure how it works)

Does anybody actually live near the Etruria station site these days?

 

[Trainfan2019]

Although the re-opening of Etruria would be a boost for the area, wasn't the line altered or something after the station was demolished? If Etruria re-opened would this mean the original location could not be used?

 

[Ianno87]

Although the re-opening of Etruria would be a boost for the area, wasn't the line altered or something after the station was demolished? If Etruria re-opened would this mean the original location could not be used?

Yes, the track was realigned to increase the line speed. Far more useful to more people.

 

[RichJF]

I have family who live in Hythe, Hampshire. They moved out from Greater London in 1991.
The massive growth of the communities in that area (combined with the huge plans for Fawley Power Station) and the roads in the area already being at capacity make the Waterside Line seem like a no-brainer imo, even if it is a 2/3 car diesel shuttle to Southampton/Portsmouth.

 

[onlinespotting]

Yes, the track was realigned to increase the line speed. Far more useful to more people.

Apparently the straightening of the track makes the express trains about 1-2 mins quicker, by the time the trains reach Etruria they are slowing down for Stoke-on-Trent anyway. The island platform has been removed. They could build two separate platforms as the access is there, potentially they could rebuild the island platform as the tracks are still separated enough as Etruria is by a bridge

 

[Ianno87]

Apparently the straightening of the track makes the express trains about 1-2 mins quicker, by the time the trains reach Etruria they are slowing down for Stoke-on-Trent anyway. The island platform has been removed. They could build two separate platforms as the access is there, potentially they could rebuild the island platform as the tracks are still separated enough as Etruria is by a bridge

Depends whether this island platform could be wide enough to meet modern standards, especially with fast trains passing frequently.

 

[A0wen]

I have family who live in Hythe, Hampshire. They moved out from Greater London in 1991.
The massive growth of the communities in that area (combined with the huge plans for Fawley Power Station) and the roads in the area already being at capacity make the Waterside Line seem like a no-brainer imo, even if it is a 2/3 car diesel shuttle to Southampton/Portsmouth.

But on what basis is it a "no brainer" ?

Hythe has 20,000 people - so it's not a large place. The line isn't electrified which makes it operationally more difficult in that neck of the woods and capacity through Southampton is already at a premium.

The "best" comparison I can think of is Felixstowe - similar size end of branch line, though don't forget Felixstowe's branch is viable due to the freight, not the passenger services. And that gets about 200,000 people through it a year, some of which are having a day trip to the seaside - which isn't going to be the case with Hythe and Fawley.

Hythe also presumes everyone wants to go to or via Southampton. A better (cheaper) way forward would be to improve the services at Beaulieu Road which is about 5 miles away and could offer direct services not just to Southampton but also London but Bournemouth and Weymouth as well.

 

[A0wen]

Apparently the straightening of the track makes the express trains about 1-2 mins quicker, by the time the trains reach Etruria they are slowing down for Stoke-on-Trent anyway. The island platform has been removed. They could build two separate platforms as the access is there, potentially they could rebuild the island platform as the tracks are still separated enough as Etruria is by a bridge

Etruria's a non-starter. Stoke station is just over a mile away in one direction and Longport about a mile in the other.

You can just about get away with viable stations being a mile or so apart in the big cities - by that I mean London, Manchester, Birmingham - but not in Stoke.

And it's not just about the fact trains are "slowing down" for Stoke - the issue is the stoppers which would be stopping at Etruria would have to slow down, stop, start and accelerate into Stoke to then be clear of the fast train coming up behind.

Don't forget leaving Stoke (and coming the other way for that matter) you have the following all on a 2 track railway:

2 AWC for Manchester - next stop Macclesfield
1 XC for Manchester - next stop usually Macclesfield
1 EMR for Crewe - next stop Longport
1 LMR for Crewe - next stop Kidsgrove
1 Northern for Manchester - next stop Kidsgrove

And you've got to consider that for the services arriving from Crewe they've had to cross the Manchester line at Kidsgrove - reducing capacity further.

This is all before you get onto the aspirations to increase the Manchester - Birmingham to 2tph and increase Crewe - Derby to 2tph.

 

[vlad]

Apparently the straightening of the track makes the express trains about 1-2 mins quicker, by the time the trains reach Etruria they are slowing down for Stoke-on-Trent anyway. The island platform has been removed. They could build two separate platforms as the access is there, potentially they could rebuild the island platform as the tracks are still separated enough as Etruria is by a bridge

Is there any obvious reason why they can't put side platforms on the slow lines at Etruria? I've only ever known passenger trains use the fast lines, however.

Timetable it right and you'd have faster trains overtake whilst the slow train is stopped at Etruria.

 

[Ianno87]

Is there any obvious reason why they can't put side platforms on the slow lines at Etruria? I've only ever known passenger trains use the fast lines, however.

Timetable it right and you'd have faster trains overtake whilst the slow train is stopped at Etruria.

You'll basically be timetabling most of the whole WCML and Manchester area around Etruria

 

[The Planner]

You could stick a stop in the current down Northern train at Etruria as the XC is far enough behind it but not the EMR or the LNWR services to Crewe. On the Up the XC is right up its backside so it cannot be done, but the EMR could feasibly stop as could the LNWR service from Crewe.

 

[onlinespotting]

You could stick a stop in the current down Northern train at Etruria as the XC is far enough behind it but not the EMR or the LNWR services to Crewe. On the Up the XC is right up its backside so it cannot be done, but the EMR could feasibly stop as could the LNWR service from Crewe.

The last service that served Etruria was the First North Western to Manchester Piccadilly, Central trains had replaced theirs with a bus

 

[Mikey C]

Etruria wasn't of course a Beeching cut. Indeed it wasn't even what I would consider a cut either, as the station was closed to improve the overall service

As always whether you have that extra station on a line is a compromise between different interests

 

[CW2]

Etruria had very low passenger usage.
Express passenger trains had to slow down to pass through the curved platforms.
By closing Etruria station, it was possible to knock about 1/2 minute off the non-stop schedules. Doesn't sound much, but 1/2 minute multiplied by the number of passengers per day soon adds up to a big overall benefit.
As stated in an earlier post, there are alternative stations nearby.
The chances of reopening Etruria are approximately zero.