Revenue protection took my details - Unstaffed station

[cjmillsnun]

I seem to recall in the past a Permit To Travel system, where, if you were unable to buy a ticket at the start of your journey for whatever reason, you could get a free ticket to prove where you started your journey, and signify (to some extent) that you intended to pay for your journey. You could then buy the full ticket at the 'first possible opportunity'.

Could the TVM not issue such tickets: this would neither require use of a card, RTVs or cash.

Would this help solve some of the issues raised in this thread? Or was there some over-riding reason why this system was discontinued?

you had to put money in a pertis machine, even if it was only 5p

 

[Bletchleyite]

you had to put money in a pertis machine, even if it was only 5p

Though that is probably mainly to discourage people dumping the tickets on the floor. While PERTIS was sort-of intended for you to insert the full fare or as near to it as you had in change, its most important role was in acting as proof you had boarded at an unstaffed station.

Neil

 

[cjmillsnun]

Given the number of card types that do not actually work in Northern (and others) TVMs, where the cardholder has sufficient funds, card-only could never be an enforceable, compulsory point of purchase. I am aware the problem lies with Northern's transaction handler, which may or may not be Streamline Merchant Services.

-- I am not referring to Electron, but many Lloyds, Halifax and other conventional visa debit cards.

My debit card doesn't work on SWT TVMs. I have to order online and collect via TOD if the ticket office is shut (or pay cash as Petersfield has TVMs that take cash)
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

A card being declined doesn't prove there is no available funds and a card being accepted doesn't prove there is available funds. My bank will allow debit cards transactions through and treat it as an application for an "unauthorised overdraft", charging me £30+interest for the privilege. Similarly use of a credit card involves creating a debt with a third party and, again, interest is payable on that debt. If the TOC is adamant that I pay with a credit card then they can also pay the 17.9% APR interest.

If you pay the card in full on the statement date, there is no interest.

I have and use a credit card, purely to buy fuel and repay in full every month. It only leaves the house when I have to buy fuel that day.

 

[Fare-Cop]

I seem to recall in the past a Permit To Travel system, where, if you were unable to buy a ticket at the start of your journey for whatever reason, you could get a free ticket to prove where you started your journey, and signify (to some extent) that you intended to pay for your journey. You could then buy the full ticket at the 'first possible opportunity'.

Could the TVM not issue such tickets: this would neither require use of a card, RTVs or cash.

Would this help solve some of the issues raised in this thread? Or was there some over-riding reason why this system was discontinued?

Some new generation card only machines will have this facility

 

[Clip]

You're essentially trying to argue that the rules are based entirely on what's hypothetically in someone's wallet when they board a train. You're not, I notice, trying to claim that someone who only carried cash would be breaking the law by walking past a card-only TVM.

.

I'm only talking in hypotheticals because that is what the scenario has turned into.

It is still my firm view that as the OP had the means to pay and they chose not to then they were in the wrong. Whether you pay the interest on your credit card is not down to the TOC but yourself - its free if you pay it off at once so that's not really a good addition to your argument.

I have already said its a grey area and have already said that clarity needs to be found about whether or not passing a card only TVM when you have a valid card to pay for it constitutes a first opportunity to pay and you and others disagree which is why I have asked you all to put your hands in your pockets and pay for a brief to help the OP in court with this matter. That's still not forthcoming from all sides I see.

 

[najaB]

How are we to make sense of 'compulsion' and 'force' in respect of payment when the person has chosen to travel by a paid-for service?

In the situation to which I replied, the hypothetical passenger chose to travel on the service with the intention and ability to pay using an advertised payment method (cash), but which the TOC was unable to take.

The question being asked was if the TOC could then insist that the passenger use a different payment method to the one they intended (card) with the potential force/compulsion being in the form of laws against ticketless travel.

 

[Tetchytyke]

To DaveNewcastle and Clip in particular:

If I am only carrying cash, which is an accepted payment method on Northern Rail services, do you think that walking past a card-only TVM would constitute "failing to pay"?

 

[DaveNewcastle]

. . . . The question being asked was if the TOC could then insist that the passenger use a different payment method to the one they intended (card) with the potential force/compulsion being in the form of laws against ticketless travel.

We still cannot reach the point where 'force' or 'compulsion' is introduced. There is no 'forcing' the passenger or 'compelling' the passenger to do anything (other than the Byelaw provision of removing a person from the Railways if necessary, but these would be in different circumstances).

To answer the new part of your question, can a Railway Operator insist that a passenger uses a different payment method, then I still claim that the wrong word is being used. There is no insistence - it is for the passenger to pay their fare if they choose to travel, and only if they choose to travel, the negotiation over the transaction (which includes payment) should be just that, a negotiated settlement. The remedy for an non-paying passenger may, indeed, be a prosecution just as it may be an invoice for the fare due - that distinction would be made on a balanced view of all the evidence.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

To DaveNewcastle and Clip in particular:

If I am only carrying cash, which is an accepted payment method on Northern Rail services, do you think that walking past a card-only TVM would constitute "failing to pay"?

If the full circumstances are that both parties (the passenger and the Railway Operator) have developed the custom and practice of paying for rail travel by cash on the journey in question, then it would be hard to see how that could be construed as "failing to pay with intent to avoid payment".

It is a matter of fact (following from the way in which the question is constructed) that the passenger has "failed to pay". I hope that much is clear to all.

The real difficulty arises in interpreting a passenger's intentions when they have 1) chosen to travel, 2) failed to pay, 3) posess the means to pay, 4) have passed an opportunity to pay. At first blush, these 4 conditions might lead an inquiring mind to find evidence of intention to avoid payment. Futher investigation might reveal other factors which make that conclusion less probable.

 

[Harpers Tate]

The way I'd interpret the "legal tender" thing is:
Whilst the parties may agree to accept and use other methods of payment (and often do), ultimately, there can be no requirement placed upon the passenger to pay their fare by any other means; cash (within the limits of legal tender) must always be available.

 

[Tetchytyke]

cash (within the limits of legal tender) must always be available.

It doesn't have to be available, as London Buses prove. There's no legal obligation for the TOCs to accept cash, though the TSA creates a contractual one.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The way I'd interpret the "legal tender" thing is:
Whilst the parties may agree to accept and use other methods of payment (and often do), ultimately, there can be no requirement placed upon the passenger to pay their fare by any other means; cash (within the limits of legal tender) must always be available.

Though cash could be available only at staffed stations, say. The only thing preventing the railway being card only is possibly something in franchise agreements/NCoC. TfL buses have already done that.

The thing is, no such statement has been made.

Neil

 

[Greenback]

The thread is going off at tangents, so I think it may be best to close this thread until johntea has some new information to report.

Please PM one of the forum staff if the thread needs to be reopened. Thanks.

 

[johntea]

As an update to this I received a letter a week or so ago dated 9th December to my correct current address with my journey details and asked to pay £4.20 (anytime single from Castleford to Saltaire).

It stated if not paid within 21 days the prosecution would commence with further charges etc etc (sorry the letter is on my desk at work so I'm using my rather poor memory here!)

I was quite impressed that when I rang the number on the letter rather than having to speak to an operator it was all automated, i just typed in the reference number my card details and it was done and dusted, even a text message confirmation to confirm payment.

Anyway I'll probably still get in touch with Northern over certain aspects but just wanted to update on what happened in the end as there was a lot of interest on the thread.

 

[yorkie]

If you paid the full £4.20, please let us know when they refund you the difference between that, and the price you paid on the return journey, and the amount that you should have been charged for a return ticket.

Also I look forward to hearing details of their apology for the inaccurate and unprofessional 'lecture', and perhaps you can ask them for a date by when all staff representing the Company will be adequately trained on such matters.

You may also wish to consider asking for a copy of the data they hold about you, and seek assurances you're not on their 'failed to pay' list.

 

[cjmillsnun]

That does kind of confirm the card only TVM argument though... It is not considered an opportunity to pay if you want to pay cash. (for Northern anyway)

 

[Bletchleyite]

The way I'd interpret the "legal tender" thing is:
Whilst the parties may agree to accept and use other methods of payment (and often do), ultimately, there can be no requirement placed upon the passenger to pay their fare by any other means; cash (within the limits of legal tender) must always be available.

You'd be wrong in that interpretation. Legal tender is only relevant for the payment of debt to a Court.

It is of no relevance to a bus journey nor a transaction in a shop.

Neil
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

That does kind of confirm the card only TVM argument though... It is not considered an opportunity to pay if you want to pay cash. (for Northern anyway)

Good to hear it.

Neil

 

[Llanigraham]

You'd be wrong in that interpretation. Legal tender is only relevant for the payment of debt to a Court.

It is of no relevance to a bus journey nor a transaction in a shop.

Neil

Really?
As an ex-shop keeper I'd say you were wrong with that assumption.
Please provide a reference?

 

[dtaylor84]

He is correct. Legal tender is basically irrelevant for day to day transactions.

http://www.royalmint.com/aboutus/policies-and-guidelines/legal-tender-guidelines

 

[cjmillsnun]

Really?
As an ex-shop keeper I'd say you were wrong with that assumption.
Please provide a reference?

He's quite right with his assumption otherwise there would be no way that the London busses could not accept cash.

 

[Class377]

Really?
As an ex-shop keeper I'd say you were wrong with that assumption.
Please provide a reference?

A shop could demand payment in anything they like as it is effectively an invitation to treat, not a debt.

However, it could well be argued that on the railways, if no opportunity to pay is presented BEFORE the journey, and you pay at the destination, a debt has been incurred. If this was the case, legal tender would be required to be accepted.

(As a side note, as I understand it if legal tender is offered to resolve a debt and is rejected, the party demanding payment no longer has the right to call in the debt? A TOC would have to be very stupid to reject payment and then be owed nothing though!)

 

[Timster83]

Interestingly, the National Rail website specifies exact details and limits with respect to coins and notes which are accepted at stations and retail outlets.

http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/ticket_types/45185.aspx

Coins

Acceptable combinations of coins are:
1p and 2p coins up to 20p
5p and 10p coins up to £5
20p and 50p coins up to £10
£1 and £2 coins up to any amount
Jersey/Guernsey/Isle of Man coins will not be accepted.
Bank Notes of the British Isles

The following bank notes may be accepted:
Bank notes issued by the Bank of England and bearing a portrait of Her Majesty the Queen;
Sterling notes issued by Allied Irish Banks plc
Sterling notes issued by Bank of Ireland
Sterling notes issued by Northern Bank Ltd
Sterling notes issued by Ulster Bank Ltd
Bank notes issued by Bank of Scotland
Bank notes issued by Clydesdale Bank plc
Bank notes issued by Royal Bank of Scotland
Sterling bank notes issued by the Isle of Man Bank Ltd
Sterling bank notes issued by States of Guernsey
Sterling bank notes issued by States of Jersey

 

[Flamingo]

I had somebody on an early train a while ago offered me a £50 note for £1.60, with the line "I'm offering to pay, if you can't change it that's not my problem".

Unfortunately for him I had two £50 floats with me, so I just opened one, took the £1.60 out of it and gave him the remaining £48.40 in a variety of change. To his "What do you expect me to do with that?" I advised him to check it was correct!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Interestingly, the National Rail website specifies exact details and limits with respect to coins and notes which are accepted at stations and retail outlets.

http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/ticket_types/45185.aspx

Interesting that it says:
Self-service ticket machines at National Rail stations will accept a more limited range of payment.
...while not saying that doesn't mean it represents an opportunity to pay.

Also interesting that it reads like it confirms what I thought about RTVs, namely that they are accepted only at staffed stations and Telesales, and thus by my reading may not be used on board, nor as a means of getting away with a PF.

Neil
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I had somebody on an early train a while ago offered me a £50 note for £1.60, with the line "I'm offering to pay, if you can't change it that's not my problem".

Unfortunately for him I had two £50 floats with me, so I just opened one, took the £1.60 out of it and gave him the remaining £48.40 in a variety of change. To his "What do you expect me to do with that?" I advised him to check it was correct!

I love it

Neil

 

[neilmc]

I had somebody on an early train a while ago offered me a £50 note for £1.60, with the line "I'm offering to pay, if you can't change it that's not my problem".

Unfortunately for him I had two £50 floats with me, so I just opened one, took the £1.60 out of it and gave him the remaining £48.40 in a variety of change. To his "What do you expect me to do with that?" I advised him to check it was correct!

When I was a bus conductor someone once offered me a £5 note for a three-stop journey. The fare was 3p (sorry it was rather a long time ago!). I did exactly the same with a bagful of silver, made my cashing-up a whole lot easier.

 

[PermitToTravel]

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showpost.php?p=1493156&postcount=38

I used to be a weekend night bus driver, most often found on the N3 (Oxford Circus to Bromley North) and N35 (Tottenham Court Road to Clapham Junction.) I was so into the job that I used to turn up to work anything up to an hour early - firstly so I could get to the yardman before he preallocated the bus and secondly so I could drive light to Victoria and change up a £20 note for 10 pence pieces. I was the one driver the fare evaders tendering big notes didn't want to come across. Funnily enough, when I tipped out 177 bits of shrapnel as change, on every occasion they found the correct money to pay with. Quite often as I was doing so, I'd get the "oh just let me on for free man." Pass.

 

[maniacmartin]

The fear of being lumped with a load of change if why I prefer to pay by card, although its nothing a good coin holder can't solve

 

[455driver]

When I was a bus conductor someone once offered me a £5 note for a three-stop journey. The fare was 3p (sorry it was rather a long time ago!). I did exactly the same with a bagful of silver, made my cashing-up a whole lot easier.

When I started on the buses back in the 80s, we had a woman who offered a £5 note for her 50p fare on the first bus out of the depot, at the time we only had a £5 float so it basically took all our float, we asked her if it was possible for her to have anything smaller but no it was always the £5 note, so one of the drivers (me) went to the bank and got £5 worth of pennies, took out the 50p for her fare and swapped for that job the next Monday, she didnt do it again!

 

[VauxhallandI]

I had somebody on an early train a while ago offered me a £50 note for £1.60, with the line "I'm offering to pay, if you can't change it that's not my problem".

Unfortunately for him I had two £50 floats with me, so I just opened one, took the £1.60 out of it and gave him the remaining £48.40 in a variety of change. To his "What do you expect me to do with that?" I advised him to check it was correct!

Touché!

 

[sarahj]

Short change voucher.

Somehow they then find the correct money.

 

[Greenback]

Many years ago I read somewhere that there is no legal requirement to give change and it's more or less the responsibility of the person paying to provide the amoutn owed or required.

Does anyone know if this has changed?

Of course, in almost all situations it would be desirable and relatively easy to give change, but I believe this piece of legality was useful for dealing with the sort of situations that Flamingo has described, where the passenger would deliberately offer a very large note in the hope that it would lead to him or her not paying at all.

In that example, it would have been a good idea to point out that there was no legal requirement to give any change, and I've no doubt that faced with the prospect of paying £50 instead of £1.60 the outraged traveller would have managed to find the right money!

Not that I ever responded in that way to a similar situation when I worked in Reading ticket office, naturally