Scotrail Class 385 Discussion

[scotraildriver]

Just one example from Wednesday. The Bathgate services calling at Edinburgh park are the biggest hold ups of eastbound E & G trains.

 

[hexagon789]

View attachment 46492

That's some quite impressive running I'll admit, 87 mph average Croy to Falkirk; 76 mph average Falkirk to Haymarket.

Certainly going to be very interesting what timings the new EMU timetable will have between stops. I wonder what the non-stop Queen Street to Falkirk time will become seeing as that has the longest 100 mph stretch.

 

[Failed Unit]

I have found that the biggest problem is other trains. I know that is why the Stirling route is going electric but catching up the the local service always cut the potential of the non-stop Falkirk - Glasgow runs.

 

[gsnedders]

Just one example from Wednesday. The Bathgate services calling at Edinburgh park are the biggest hold ups of eastbound E & G trains.

What's the acceleration of the 334s like compared with even more modern stock? They feel nowhere near as extreme at the 380s… I wonder if it'd be worth replacing them with something quicker accelerating?

 

[D365]

I don’t think it’s possible to compare on an anecdotal basis...

 

[hexagon789]

What's the acceleration of the 334s like compared with even more modern stock? They feel nowhere near as extreme at the 380s… I wonder if it'd be worth replacing them with something quicker accelerating?

I'm sure Rail Express had 39 secs for 0-60 in a 334 and 37 secs for a 3-car 380. A 334 will certainly be quicker off the mark than a 318/320 as well as more modern.

If you were to replace anything surely the 318s/320s would be the first to go, the 334s are not particularly old after all.

 

[gsnedders]

I'm sure Rail Express had 39 secs for 0-60 in a 334 and 37 secs for a 3-car 380. A 334 will certainly be quicker off the mark than a 318/320 as well as more modern.

If you were to replace anything surely the 318s/320s would be the first to go, the 334s are not particularly old after all.

If the problem is the congestion from Bathgate Jn with trains stopping at Edinburgh Park, then that's entirely 334s (given seemingly with the Bathgate trains gone there was no problem).

 

[Altnabreac]

I have found that the biggest problem is other trains. I know that is why the Stirling route is going electric but catching up the the local service always cut the potential of the non-stop Falkirk - Glasgow runs.

Really the flexibility that a grade separated Almond Chord brings is what is needed to help bring further journey time and reliability improvements.

 

[InOban]

The problem with the bathgate services starts with constrained scheduling in Glasgow, with both services starting in singled sections, Milngavie being the worst, and with other delays arising from the Cambuslang section where the Central LL services share the tracks with the InterCity services.

I recently came from QS to Edinburgh Park when trains from the West were being delayed as a result of a late-running VT train delaying the services from Lanarkshire through Central LL. Mind you, the driver did make use of that 90mph capability. There was a degree of cant deficiency on some bends!

 

[The_Engineer]

Alex Hynes was telling the Scottish Parliament this morning that the first new windscreens will be fitted this week, after which it'll head back to Scotland for testing

From the above statement it sounds like this will be a revised windscreen glass fitted to a Class 385 at Hitachi's factory? It will be interesting to see how quickly this does get back to Scotland and proven suitable (or not).

 

[themiller]

From the above statement it sounds like this will be a revised windscreen glass fitted to a Class 385 at Hitachi's factory? It will be interesting to see how quickly this does get back to Scotland and proven suitable (or not).

The revised screen will have to be proved to be acceptable before the manufacturer would be ordered to going into production for the full order so it could take a while.

 

[gingertom]

The revised screen will have to be proved to be acceptable before the manufacturer would be ordered to going into production for the full order so it could take a while.

agreed but at least we are seeing progress.

 

[IanXC]

You've missed the prime negotiator - DFT

You appear to have missed the devolution settlement.

 

[PHILIPE]

You appear to have missed the devolution settlement.

I realised that afterwards but then thought as there are cross border moves involved I decided to leave it alone.

 

[hexagon789]

I realised that afterwards but then thought as there are cross border moves involved I decided to leave it alone.

As far as I can recall, all areas of internal Scottish rail transport including stock procurement is devolved, but I suppose the transfer might involve the DfT at some stage.

 

[Domh245]

Richard Clinninck is reporting that the final shell for 385121* has been delivered to Newton Aycliffe, so production clearly still continuing in the background - does anyone know where in the construction program that leaves them? Presumably after they've finished the 4 cars, they'll finish the last load of 3 cars?


*Apparently this being the final 4 car that they're building, although there are supposed to be 24x 4 car units?

 

[hexagon789]

Richard Clinninck is reporting that the final shell for 385121* has been delivered to Newton Aycliffe, so production clearly still continuing in the background - does anyone know where in the construction program that leaves them? Presumably after they've finished the 4 cars, they'll finish the last load of 3 cars?


*Apparently this being the final 4 car that they're building, although there are supposed to be 24x 4 car units?

Definitely supposed to be 24 four-car sets. Whivh begs the question: what's happened to the rest? It is strange.

 

[SC318250]

385122-124 have been delivered to Craigentinny already

 

[hexagon789]

385122-124 have been delivered to Craigentinny already

Oh right, bit strange to build them out of order, though there's possibly a reason for that.

 

[gingertom]

Definitely supposed to be 24 four-car sets. Whivh begs the question: what's happened to the rest? It is strange.

can only assume they are not being made at Newton Aycliffe. Kasado or Pistoia?

 

[themiller]

I've not heard anything to suggest that the 385s are being assembled anywhere else but Newton Aycliffe. Could the out-of-order completion be anything to do with access to the stored body shells at Teesport?

 

[Domh245]

As noted, 122-124 were built at N.A. and were complete by November, although of course the first seven pre-production units (001-003 and 101-104 I think) were produced in Kasado. It does just seem that they were built out of sequence for whatever reason, 123 was T36 as can be seen in the linked photo, but 105 was supposed to be T18.

 

[Typhoon_93]

As noted, 122-124 were built at N.A. and were complete by November, although of course the first seven pre-production units (001-003 and 101-104 I think) were produced in Kasado. It does just seem that they were built out of sequence for whatever reason, 123 was T36 as can be seen in the linked photo, but 105 was supposed to be T18.

The following sets have been produced in Kasido, Japan:-
385001-002/014-016/031/033.
385101-104/122-124.

All the rest are Aycliffe built and currently the situation is:-

385003-013 complete in various stages of test.
385105-110 complete in various stages of test.
385111-121 in production with as reported the last shell of 121 arriving this week.

 

[InOban]

At the Friends of the West Highland Lines today we were told by boss Hynes that two different redesigned windows were being fitted this week, at either end of the same unit. This set would come up next week from NA for real world testing. Assuming at least one version is fit for purpose, they will start to fit them.

The only other issue is the usual software one, which is going through successive iterations, but that's normal. The it's the usual 2000 miles fault free for each unit.

 

[385001]

At the Friends of the West Highland Lines today we were told by boss Hynes that two different redesigned windows were being fitted this week, at either end of the same unit. This set would come up next week from NA for real world testing. Assuming at least one version is fit for purpose, they will start to fit them.

Thanks for the update.

Hopefully at least one of the designs will work. I'm a bit concerned though that maybe Hitachi can't re-create the windscreen defect in a test environment. It would give more confidence to see it fixed in a test environment rather than fitting two windscreens and seeing if one or both of them resolves the issue.

 

[hexagon789]

At the Friends of the West Highland Lines today we were told by boss Hynes that two different redesigned windows were being fitted this week, at either end of the same unit. This set would come up next week from NA for real world testing. Assuming at least one version is fit for purpose, they will start to fit them.

The only other issue is the usual software one, which is going through successive iterations, but that's normal. The it's the usual 2000 miles fault free for each unit.

Good that progress has been made, hopefully at least one, if not both of the windscreens proves suitable.

 

[clc]

Alex Hynes said this in Parliament this week:-

“It is my aspiration that we do some line speed enhancement on that route, to cut the journey time even further, because those brand new electric trains reach 100mph in half the time of a diesel train and the drivers are having to throttle back—so the train performance is outstripping that of the infrastructure. I say, let us be bold and ambitious and see what can be done to exploit the full performance of the train, because it is impressive.”

Could it be that the new trains have more oomph than anticipated?

http://www.parliament.scot/parliamentarybusiness/report.aspx?r=11520&i=104550

 

[gingertom]

Alex Hynes said this in Parliament this week:-

“It is my aspiration that we do some line speed enhancement on that route, to cut the journey time even further, because those brand new electric trains reach 100mph in half the time of a diesel train and the drivers are having to throttle back—so the train performance is outstripping that of the infrastructure. I say, let us be bold and ambitious and see what can be done to exploit the full performance of the train, because it is impressive.”

Could it be that the new trains have more oomph than anticipated?

http://www.parliament.scot/parliamentarybusiness/report.aspx?r=11520&i=104550

I certainly think they have some hidden oomph. I believe manufacturers do not reinvent the wheel: the class 800 traction equipment is lifted from the 395 javelin, I reckon the 385 is also based on the Javelin's traction equipment, not quite so many axles/bogies motored but a (slightly) shorter & therefore lighter bodyshell but still more than sufficient horsepower for the job. As mentioned by another poster earlier in the thread the AT200 platform has 200km/h capability- I wonder if this is what is being alluded to by Mr Hynes? Even 110mph running could trim a couple of minutes...

 

[Domh245]

As mentioned by another poster earlier in the thread the AT200 platform has 200km/h capability- I wonder if this is what is being alluded to by Mr Hynes? Even 110mph running could trim a couple of minutes

I don' think so, it sounds more as if the trains are hitting restrictive speed limits whilst accelerating up to 100mph, and so they want to raise those lower speed limits so that they can accelerate through to 100mph in one go. For example, if there is a section of track that goes 30mph>60mph>100mph, the example 385 is hitting 60mph before it reaches the 100mph board, and so if they can raise the section that is 60mph to 70 or 80mph, then they can keep on accelerating up to the higher speed limit.

 

[gsnedders]

I don' think so, it sounds more as if the trains are hitting restrictive speed limits whilst accelerating up to 100mph, and so they want to raise those lower speed limits so that they can accelerate through to 100mph in one go. For example, if there is a section of track that goes 30mph>60mph>100mph, the example 385 is hitting 60mph before it reaches the 100mph board, and so if they can raise the section that is 60mph to 70 or 80mph, then they can keep on accelerating up to the higher speed limit.

And remember ScotRail's safety case is (currently, of course) based on maximum 100mph running.